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Fixing On-Grid Probing
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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1 - 2011-11-10 03:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
On grid probing has obsoleted large rails and sniper fleets in general. There are two ways to go about addressing this:

a) Acknowledge that the mechanic is broken and fix it so that combat at 150km - 250km is again viable.

b) Accept it but introduce a workaround. This could be in the form of a new ship OR a new module. The workaround would delay or stop the probing of ships around the affect. I prefer delay as it would stop abuse. Picture an new interdictor module that launches probe jammers rather then interdiction bubbles. Everyone inside the jammer's effect can't be probed. The interdictor is limited by ammunition. This is just an example of workaround.... Blink

Either way it would be nice to see BS slinging rounds at 150km again.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#2 - 2011-11-20 03:21:36 UTC
Bump for edit.
Pelador Rova
No Luck Corp
Kenshin Shogunate.
#3 - 2011-11-20 03:31:10 UTC
As a balancer, could it made that targeting takes longer for those in the bubbles?

As such a general scrambling of signals? Thus the delay can be incorporated by lowering resolutions of ships in the bubble.

I'm not talking about debilitaiting amounts here, but a measureable balance.

I can see that tactical use of the new interdictor ammunition for these purposes knowing probes are on the scanner etc and/or considering activities in systems to be "regulated" for purposes. So may not be a limiter in most situations as you might envisage it to be. The above makes it fair that if you are hard to pin point, so should be the snipers prey imho.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#4 - 2011-11-20 03:39:07 UTC
On grid probing is perfectly fine and has been for years. Would you prefer we have some pre-American revolutionary war crap where we stand off on two sides and have a gentleman's battle?

Probing for sniper fleets means FC's have to multitask, constantly be moving, constantly be vigilant and essentially makes things more difficult for both sides.

Also your little interdiction probing idea would have adverse effects on a lot of other aspects of the game, so try again.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#5 - 2011-11-20 04:35:56 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
On grid probing is perfectly fine and has been for years. Would you prefer we have some pre-American revolutionary war crap where we stand off on two sides and have a gentleman's battle?

Probing for sniper fleets means FC's have to multitask, constantly be moving, constantly be vigilant and essentially makes things more difficult for both sides.

Also your little interdiction probing idea would have adverse effects on a lot of other aspects of the game, so try again.


In other words fixing a relatively recent broken game mechanic would mess up welp cane tactics. Gotcha. Move along now please.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#6 - 2011-11-20 04:52:08 UTC
Pelador Rova wrote:
As a balancer, could it made that targeting takes longer for those in the bubbles?

As such a general scrambling of signals? Thus the delay can be incorporated by lowering resolutions of ships in the bubble.

I'm not talking about debilitaiting amounts here, but a measureable balance.

I can see that tactical use of the new interdictor ammunition for these purposes knowing probes are on the scanner etc and/or considering activities in systems to be "regulated" for purposes. So may not be a limiter in most situations as you might envisage it to be. The above makes it fair that if you are hard to pin point, so should be the snipers prey imho.


I envisioned a tug of war between probers and prover-jammers. What? After Crucible Eve has all the tank n' gank ships it needs. New ships need to have logistic functions - provide and deny intel. That kind of thing.
Pelador Rova
No Luck Corp
Kenshin Shogunate.
#7 - 2011-11-20 05:06:46 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Pelador Rova wrote:
As a balancer, could it made that targeting takes longer for those in the bubbles?

As such a general scrambling of signals? Thus the delay can be incorporated by lowering resolutions of ships in the bubble.

I'm not talking about debilitaiting amounts here, but a measureable balance.

I can see that tactical use of the new interdictor ammunition for these purposes knowing probes are on the scanner etc and/or considering activities in systems to be "regulated" for purposes. So may not be a limiter in most situations as you might envisage it to be. The above makes it fair that if you are hard to pin point, so should be the snipers prey imho.


I envisioned a tug of war between probers and prover-jammers. What? After Crucible Eve has all the tank n' gank ships it needs. New ships need to have logistic functions - provide and deny intel. That kind of thing.


"Deny" is just a easy way to counter something that makes the sniping role a little more involved. Given the distinct advantage of range, I just don't want to see BS's popping everything left, right and centre that comes through a gate (with or without an existing warp scramming bubble) without still having some form of reasonable counter, not that I expect this to happen fully all the time.

But let BS's shoot fish in a barrel from distance and simply remove a problem of theirs all together? Seriously?

By all means promote techniques to add difficulty to techniques with technology, if it balances things out, but to make things obsolete in favour of one side is just a "supernerf".
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#8 - 2011-11-20 05:20:42 UTC
Just increase the minimum warp distance to something like 250k, majority of problem solved.
Pelador Rova
No Luck Corp
Kenshin Shogunate.
#9 - 2011-11-20 05:55:30 UTC
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Just increase the minimum warp distance to something like 250k, majority of problem solved.


That would make normal sniper intervention much worse affording an easier "cushion".

And adding 100km is going to make no difference to a scanner at significant range probing you down, to cloak warp in, warp and tackle or hotdrop in preperation of a supporting fleet.


Just be attentive to d-scan for combat probes so you have an early warning? Change tactics if need be. Or initally support the sniper usage with other ships?
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-11-20 11:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
Pelador Rova wrote:
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Just increase the minimum warp distance to something like 250k, majority of problem solved.


That would make normal sniper intervention much worse affording an easier "cushion".

And adding 100km is going to make no difference to a scanner at significant range probing you down, to cloak warp in, warp and tackle or hotdrop in preperation of a supporting fleet.


Just be attentive to d-scan for combat probes so you have an early warning? Change tactics if need be. Or initally support the sniper usage with other ships?



It takes 7 seconds to probe, you can't even lock something in a sniper bs in that time.

It's an entire aspect of the game that is no longer possible, removing all on grid warping to a probable result would simply mean you'd have to probe then warp in from off grid, meaning sniper bs, beams and rails have a point again.

If you seriously think it would be too easy to sniper fleet without on grid probe warps, you need a reality check.

Step one: keep hic off grid, step two: probe, step three: warp hic to bs, bubble up, warp your on grid bc fleet to bs, profit.

Relatively easy counter, but yet still not so easy as to remove an entire ship and weapons class from combat. This is coming from a pilot that can't even fly a bs, so I'm not a crying Apoc pilot.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#11 - 2011-11-20 15:28:31 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:
On grid probing is perfectly fine and has been for years. Would you prefer we have some pre-American revolutionary war crap where we stand off on two sides and have a gentleman's battle?

Probing for sniper fleets means FC's have to multitask, constantly be moving, constantly be vigilant and essentially makes things more difficult for both sides.

Also your little interdiction probing idea would have adverse effects on a lot of other aspects of the game, so try again.


In other words fixing a relatively recent broken game mechanic would mess up welp cane tactics. Gotcha. Move along now please.


Relatively recent? Are you brain dead?

Sniper fleets have been going on since pre DD nerf. As has probing them down.

But you know, sweet ad hominem attack assuming I am bias in terms of welp canes (hint, I'm not, sniper fleets/ahac fleets are a lot more fun than ahacs).
Pelador Rova
No Luck Corp
Kenshin Shogunate.
#12 - 2011-11-20 17:51:25 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Pelador Rova wrote:
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Just increase the minimum warp distance to something like 250k, majority of problem solved.


That would make normal sniper intervention much worse affording an easier "cushion".

And adding 100km is going to make no difference to a scanner at significant range probing you down, to cloak warp in, warp and tackle or hotdrop in preperation of a supporting fleet.


Just be attentive to d-scan for combat probes so you have an early warning? Change tactics if need be. Or initally support the sniper usage with other ships?



It takes 7 seconds to probe, you can't even lock something in a sniper bs in that time.

It's an entire aspect of the game that is no longer possible, removing all on grid warping to a probable result would simply mean you'd have to probe then warp in from off grid, meaning sniper bs, beams and rails have a point again.

If you seriously think it would be too easy to sniper fleet without on grid probe warps, you need a reality check.

Step one: keep hic off grid, step two: probe, step three: warp hic to bs, bubble up, warp your on grid bc fleet to bs, profit.

Relatively easy counter, but yet still not so easy as to remove an entire ship and weapons class from combat. This is coming from a pilot that can't even fly a bs, so I'm not a crying Apoc pilot.


I think your numbers and scenarios that support your arguments are "ideal" to say the least. There's also numerous situations that I can describe that make sniping an unfair situation also. But again this is the variability of how you apply them and the tactics employed for a given situation.

My original comment was simply not to remove completely one counter to the sniping role, and if you read above was happy to compromise the current situation with the idea presented.

So sick and tired of design methodologies that use a "nerbat" to supplement stratergy however, especially if it "completey eradicates" one area of fun in favour of your own. Not that I suppose I should be, I seriosuly doubt CCP applies similar design ethics.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#13 - 2011-11-20 18:22:47 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:
On grid probing is perfectly fine and has been for years. Would you prefer we have some pre-American revolutionary war crap where we stand off on two sides and have a gentleman's battle?

Probing for sniper fleets means FC's have to multitask, constantly be moving, constantly be vigilant and essentially makes things more difficult for both sides.

Also your little interdiction probing idea would have adverse effects on a lot of other aspects of the game, so try again.


In other words fixing a relatively recent broken game mechanic would mess up welp cane tactics. Gotcha. Move along now please.


Relatively recent? Are you brain dead?

Sniper fleets have been going on since pre DD nerf. As has probing them down.

But you know, sweet ad hominem attack assuming I am bias in terms of welp canes (hint, I'm not, sniper fleets/ahac fleets are a lot more fun than ahacs).


For the detail impaired:

1) Probing mechanics were redone within the last two years. That's recent for CCP.
2) The changes allowed sniper fleets on grid to be probed out in 10 seconds or less. This effectively obsoleted any fleets designed to snipe from ranges of greater then 150km.
3) CCP has admitted that this was an unintended consequence of the changes.
4) You can't read the forums without reading people bemoaning the death of sniper fleets.

To say that it always has been that way.... Good grief. You're either trolling or ignorant.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#14 - 2011-11-20 18:34:17 UTC
what about a rig which gives a warning sound if someone acquires a 100% scan result?
a rig/module which obfuscates the ships location, so you won't get a warp to 0?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#15 - 2011-11-20 18:51:11 UTC
Are you really so terrible that you need CCP to modify game mechanics because you can't figure out how to make sniper fleets work?

Protip: others are doing it, so can you! (maybe not, seeing as you seem to be mentally handicapped).
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#16 - 2011-11-20 18:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Guard
Keep it civil.
-Guard
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#17 - 2011-11-20 20:16:54 UTC
Pelador Rova wrote:


I think your numbers and scenarios that support your arguments are "ideal" to say the least. There's also numerous situations that I can describe that make sniping an unfair situation also. But again this is the variability of how you apply them and the tactics employed for a given situation.

My original comment was simply not to remove completely one counter to the sniping role, and if you read above was happy to compromise the current situation with the idea presented.

So sick and tired of design methodologies that use a "nerbat" to supplement stratergy however, especially if it "completey eradicates" one area of fun in favour of your own. Not that I suppose I should be, I seriosuly doubt CCP applies similar design ethics.


If your suggestion was the way CCP chose to balance it, I would shrug and say, "Ok". All I am saying is that it might be more interesting to counter it in an electronic fashion. My fleet's three probers vs. your one jammer = your fleet still getting probed out quickly. And there is still warping to wrecks or 'Eve is real' charges.
Pelador Rova
No Luck Corp
Kenshin Shogunate.
#18 - 2011-11-20 20:51:19 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Pelador Rova wrote:


I think your numbers and scenarios that support your arguments are "ideal" to say the least. There's also numerous situations that I can describe that make sniping an unfair situation also. But again this is the variability of how you apply them and the tactics employed for a given situation.

My original comment was simply not to remove completely one counter to the sniping role, and if you read above was happy to compromise the current situation with the idea presented.

So sick and tired of design methodologies that use a "nerbat" to supplement stratergy however, especially if it "completey eradicates" one area of fun in favour of your own. Not that I suppose I should be, I seriosuly doubt CCP applies similar design ethics.


If your suggestion was the way CCP chose to balance it, I would shrug and say, "Ok". All I am saying is that it might be more interesting to counter it in an electronic fashion. My fleet's three probers vs. your one jammer = your fleet still getting probed out quickly. And there is still warping to wrecks or 'Eve is real' charges.


You really seem to want to fix every possible scenario associated with your particular insular view of Eve it seems. I feel sorry for your FCs, if you have them, that you have to promote an "I win button" here, rather than think your way out of particular situations.

No longer interested in this thread.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#19 - 2011-11-20 21:12:50 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Are you really so terrible that you need CCP to modify game mechanics because you can't figure out how to make sniper fleets work?
Why not? After all, they've admitted to accidentally modifying the game mechanics to break them, and are not happy with the unfortunate outcome.