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Free to Play EVE
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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-11-19 09:42:29 UTC
TheFourteenthTry wrote:
Sweet off to a great start :D

feedback so far has been what I expected.

First off thanks to the Troll you burned me good

for clarification...

This means you do not train if you do not pay, so playing EVE for free would mean you're NOT training.

As for the other incites to loss in income to CCP. You are absolutely right. EVE currently has a successful business model, and this would instantly drop the income by a significant margin. EVE is most likely sustainable for a many more years as is. But EVE already has power creep and new skills are added all the time for the same reason. Also when you reach the end of the game (no more desired skills to train) you are already facing the decision of the value of your money and time.

The real question is would Free to Play draw in so many more people to EVE because of a lowered barrier to entry that it compensated for that? Also would more players in EVE make it a better experience for everyone?

I don't know maybe it wouldn't



Would draw more CHILDREEN!

And eve doe snto need even more immature people.

The absolute majority of people with enough brains and mental coordination to play this game can make the money to pay it.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
TheFourteenthTry
Unicorn Balls
#22 - 2013-11-19 09:51:10 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


And eve doe snto need even more immature people.

The absolute majority of people with enough brains and mental coordination to play this game can make the money to pay it.


Is that typo using all these 'brains' you speak of or was that just getting over excited?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#23 - 2013-11-19 10:37:56 UTC
TheFourteenthTry wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


And eve doe snto need even more immature people.

The absolute majority of people with enough brains and mental coordination to play this game can make the money to pay it.


Is that typo using all these 'brains' you speak of or was that just getting over excited?
Well do we take it from your focus on their typos rather than their point, that you've realised just how bad your idea was?

After all it can be RL money free now for individuals, but CCP still gets paid. Your idea means they lose money.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#24 - 2013-11-19 10:48:06 UTC
From what I've seen Free2Play can only exist if Pay2Win is instituted.

Neither is acceptable.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Sigras
Conglomo
#25 - 2013-11-19 11:50:56 UTC
Well, the OP has one thing right, he shouldnt think too often . . .

Of all the ideas I keep seeing come up on the forums, this has got to be the worst.

Do you have any idea what an unlimited number of alts would do to this game? Allow me to give you some examples of how terribly this would go:

1. Nobody ever trains above 50 million SP. With the way the game is currently set up, I would just have a train of alts one specialized to fly medium hybrid ships, one specialized to fly large hybrid ships, one specialized for trading, one specialized for mining, one specialized for manufacturing . . . and never risking an expensive clone
2. People with cap ships would have a cyno alt in every system with a station they could get into. Ok maybe thats a bit of an exaggeration, but I can definitely see one in every region easily
3. The number of spies in the major alliances gets even more ridiculous than it is now, and Eve becomes 99% space politics as opposed to the 90% that it is now.
4. As numbers inflate, space battles become larger and more prone to TiDi/Lag/Node Crashing. People will all be triple or quadruple boxing their different alts in combat.

These are just the first few things I could think of, and Im sure there are several more, but any of these problems would be near insurmountable, all of them together? fatal.
TheFourteenthTry
Unicorn Balls
#26 - 2013-11-19 15:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: TheFourteenthTry
Sigras wrote:
Well, the OP has one thing right, he shouldnt think too often . . .

Of all the ideas I keep seeing come up on the forums, this has got to be the worst.

Do you have any idea what an unlimited number of alts would do to this game? Allow me to give you some examples of how terribly this would go:

1. Nobody ever trains above 50 million SP. With the way the game is currently set up, I would just have a train of alts one specialized to fly medium hybrid ships, one specialized to fly large hybrid ships, one specialized for trading, one specialized for mining, one specialized for manufacturing . . . and never risking an expensive clone
2. People with cap ships would have a cyno alt in every system with a station they could get into. Ok maybe thats a bit of an exaggeration, but I can definitely see one in every region easily
3. The number of spies in the major alliances gets even more ridiculous than it is now, and Eve becomes 99% space politics as opposed to the 90% that it is now.
4. As numbers inflate, space battles become larger and more prone to TiDi/Lag/Node Crashing. People will all be triple or quadruple boxing their different alts in combat.

These are just the first few things I could think of, and Im sure there are several more, but any of these problems would be near insurmountable, all of them together? fatal.



Nice points...

Here's my counter...

1) I have over 50mil on one account already, almost a second I WOULD KEEP TRAINING BOTH ACCOUNTS and more whether or not CCP implemented this idea. Also in this scenario, as I make so many alts I only have to train one account down each of the hundreds of skill paths in EVE, I would be paying CCP a gob of RL money for that time.
2) Cyno Rats Everywhere - Once again go for it! That's your choice and to me not a bad one, or one that 'breaks' EVE in anyway. This strategy is already being done and you and I know it, only expection is CCP makes a lot of money from that. Should they? Should all in game currency be tied so directly to money CCP makes (thinking research and PI alts here)?
-- sorry tangent... Aren't research alts a little broken currently?... Train for a few months, setup month long research check account once a year. Boring, boring, and more boring while I never played at all. "Here's my money CCP for allowing me to fake research fake sciences.' o\
3) This is a terrible point against. More spies doesn't mean anything other than more intel. More people would create more intel so in my proposal EVE would need more spies.
4) This could be an ACTUAL problem and one I noted in my negatives. If CCP couldn't handle server logistics then yes it would suck to have node crashes. But the part about numbers inflating in battles... This is why people play MMO's to play with others. CCP recognizes that already. Hence the 1000 man battles in Null that they move server load around to help make happen. These large battles going out on the interwebs and to twitch draws ppl to eve thanks mad ani and others. Hence this point is kinda in favor of my idea from CCP's point of view. If they can handle the load. PS dualing box strains your computer not EVE's server nodes... don't be silly

Also I want to make another few notes back...

Many arguments against have been made because I noted CCP may lose money. On the flip side it is possible they could make money from all the new accounts being trained to take advantage of the Gift of free cyno rats. There is also all the new potential players that would try EVE.

Ever try to get a friend to play EVE? How many? How long did they play for before leaving? Are most still playing? Do you ever feel bad bringing in friends to play EVE cause you know they need several months of combat training before they will start to be satisfied? Cause I do. So many games to choose where peoples money go...

Finally DUST is F2P so CCP is obviously interested in the business model. My guess is they at CCP have thought of this 'terrible' idea a lot, and have considered its effects pos/neg. All I see is people worried about players exploiting systems they already exploit to the cost of CCP's income. But if CCP is considering then they would be willing to take the risk, because there is the potential it would make lots more money, and then it seems it will happen. \o/

oh and sorry about trolling the typo I didn't mean to lessen the argument yes we do have to worry about Stoopid Childreen ruining EVE... I guess... It was pretty funny timing on the typo though

Quote:

And eve doe snto need even more immature people.

The absolute majority of people with enough brains and mental coordination to play this game can make the money to pay it


good point though yes
Jaz Antollare
SovNarKom.
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2013-11-19 15:52:43 UTC
Just don't open the Pandora's box.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#28 - 2013-11-19 18:37:41 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
TheFourteenthTry wrote:
I was thinking

Please stop, you are bad at it.

This is the best post in the thread.

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
Bill Saisima
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-11-19 19:27:47 UTC
Wow, terrible idea. For me, but I think possibly for CCP too. Unless they don't mind totally replacing the playerbase...
Psychoactive Stimulant
#30 - 2013-11-19 19:31:17 UTC
Has anyone said "biomass yourself" yet?

Biomass yourself.
General Xenophon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-11-23 02:11:47 UTC
Thanks for the suggestion :)

Free to play is great with some games when its done well (perhaps Everquest 2 or League of Legends) but it might be hard to swing it here, plus usually there's a lot of that 'pay to win' sort of stuff that can get rather frustrating. For me, I'm happy with the model Eve has right now, but thanks for trying with the suggestion! That's what this part of the forums is for.
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-11-23 10:18:01 UTC
another dumbass who can't get enough ISK for a PLEX.

Dude, you have a whole month for that. WHY SO WHINEY?!

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
TheFourteenthTry
Unicorn Balls
#33 - 2013-11-23 19:26:04 UTC
General Xenophon wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion :)

Free to play is great with some games when its done well (perhaps Everquest 2 or League of Legends) but it might be hard to swing it here, plus usually there's a lot of that 'pay to win' sort of stuff that can get rather frustrating. For me, I'm happy with the model Eve has right now, but thanks for trying with the suggestion! That's what this part of the forums is for.


Sweet first critique devoid of trolling entirely. You're right it probably wouldn't work, but as an EVE player for 5 years now I always try to think of ways EVE's barrier to entry could be lowered so more of my friends will give it a try. Honestly it maybe near critical mass now, and that's not a bad thing.

Quote:
another dumbass who can't get enough ISK for a PLEX.

Dude, you have a whole month for that. WHY SO WHINEY?!


Ugh and here's another trolltard, when did I say 'qq', or I can't afford EVE. This entire idea is based on getting the barrier to entry into EVE lowered, so more people try it. Trolls sometimes you should read more, or at least write better material.

BTW

I would like to thank all the trolls that have bumped me for the last week, its been a lot of fun thanks.

FREE TO PLAY EVE an idea so terrible it earns all the love its getting!!!
Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-11-23 19:45:09 UTC
No thank you, but it is CCP's game and they can and will do WTF they want.
Altered Ego
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-11-24 15:52:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Altered Ego
Free to play could be viable if;

1) You don't get access to -any- of your skill points. Even shuttles need Spaceship Command 1.
2) You don't get market access. Billions can be made with market-fu. Said billions can be used to by plex.

Edit:
3) something else to do besides flying ships and playing the market
- maybe a class of ships that can fit civilian mods called ... shuttle pods, cargo pods, or salvage pods, an Eve:Valkyrie fighter, etc but take no skills to use
- these ships would have cockpits instead of a plug in for a Capsule
- a market other than 'our market' ... something that has a 'pay to win' flavor ... maybe it might sell monocles or something ... it would be great if it was already coded, but that would be too good to be true.
- since you have boots instead of a pod ... you are going to want someplace to walk, like on a station, or maybe even a planet, or a wreak
Izzy Ankhavees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-11-24 16:13:34 UTC
There are a lot of polite arguments to counter that idea, but one true reason for not accept that:

Costs for CCP doesnt end because your char is not trainning, why should income end for that reason ?

It would be really strange to see that I pay only to have a skill training in my char, while my payment fund EVERYTHING ELSE for people just because they are not training any skill.

Honestly, biomass now.

[i]"Perfect crimes do not exist, for to be a crime, it must be proven." "Make the body count unacceptable to ensure your own safety." "Basic rule of covert ops: let someone else do your dirty work.[/i]"
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#37 - 2013-11-24 16:14:02 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
TheFourteenthTry wrote:
I was thinking

Please stop, you are bad at it.


baltec1 wrote:
Its already free to play.


These. It's essentially free to play after the first year passively (sooner if you put in a little effort).
TheFourteenthTry
Unicorn Balls
#38 - 2013-11-24 16:58:48 UTC
1) EVE is not Free to Play It costs real world money or in-game ISK to play EVE. To start a new account it also costs real world money, or ISK. SO this "Eve is already free to play" is completely inaccurate.
2) EVE doesn't need to change at all to have free to play work. If people did more reading/thinking and less trolling they might understand that.

EVE free to play would mean if you are training you are paying, If your training bar is paused you are NOT paying. Its that simple. Everyone wants more skills.

I have heard the market crash economic doomsday argument and I don't agree that is what everyone would do. Seriously, EVE is not going to get mining bot'd to death.

I have heard that CCP won't do it because they will lose all their income to mining and market bots. I don't think there really are that many more cheaters and lazy people that will come to EVE we already have most of them playing already :). and These guys won't be at any really advantage these same people already enjoy. They will continue to buy PLEX like crazy because giving ppl PLEX will be a great way to get them to work for you. This is already happening in EVE everywhere. Of course if your all your accounts are done training then you can and will most likely stop, but I have yet to meet anyone that has stopped training skills on their main. Making this change won't affect that for people's main characters only their alts. Yes EVE has a huge alt pool of players. I do believe that on a busy Saturday that maybe half the number of active accounts are actual people. So the real goal of this idea is for more people to come try EVE with less risk.

What it would mean is that on a Satuday instead of 40-50k players EVE might have 150-200k players. If half of those players are paying for training, then CCP would be making twice the (at least more) money as it is now.

One person noted they don't want it but they feel CCP will do as they please.

This is one of the most thought out comments on this thread.

IF CCP THINKS FREE TO PLAY EVE WILL MAKE THEM MORE MONEY THEY WILL DO IT.

So saying it won't do that is just pooping words out your mouth. Instead say why Free to Play will ruin YOUR experience, explain WHY you feel that you should continue to pay for EVE whether, or not you are training. CCP's Money, more CHILDREEN, and You should biomass yourself is not going to convince CCP they shouldn't do it. Remember when everyone Unsubbed because of the Aurum and Monocle Debacle... I do :) You might of forgotten cause you all are still playing EVE right now, and CCP is making way more money now than it did before that update.

Remember since ISK is so closely linked to real world money buying PLEX for monthly sub IS paying for EVE. So please stop with this 'EVE is already free to Play' crap cause it isn't by a long shot.

Incoming Troll: "this 14th guy should stop crying and get to work, he can't even earn enough for a PLEX"
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#39 - 2013-11-24 17:33:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Fifth Blade
TheFourteenthTry wrote:
1) EVE is not Free to Play It costs real world money or in-game ISK to play EVE. To start a new account it also costs real world money, or ISK. SO this "Eve is already free to play" is completely inaccurate.

Except that the term refers to real-world monetary cost. Of which it has none if you choose to play for free, so it is entirely accurate.

From the EvE store page on steam:

"Play for FREE – Established players can eventually pay for their game time with in-game money they earn while playing."


Your "free to play" suggestion also has a cost, as no one could realistically play the game for years without ever training skills (It would be miserable) beyond the first month, so when you say "free to play" you are intentionally misleading. More than the eve store page currently does (where it has a qualifier: "eventually").

In practice your suggestion would result in CCPs largest, most active and most dedicated players (Veterans of EvE) mostly switching to no subscription. Because why not? We have so little left to train that it doesn't matter. If you're a combat pilot with near perfect gunnery, spaceship command, missile, drone etc skills, why do you care about "obscure skill that barely effects anything I do" rank V. Answer? you don't.


TL;DR They would massively lose their most dedicated subscriber base and the game wouldn't be "free to play" by your own definition, due to the fact you would _have_ to pay for some training.

Edit: It also wouldn't gain much in player base. Tons of people have tried EvE, few stick with it. Partly due to learning curve partly due its esoteric playstyle. This is a known problem that f2p wouldn't solve.

If you don't like the genuine reactions to your suggestion, spend at least one second thinking them through before you post. The flaws are glaringly obvious.
TheFourteenthTry
Unicorn Balls
#40 - 2013-11-24 18:06:01 UTC
Quote:


Except that the term refers to monetary cost. Of which it has none if you choose to play for free, so it is entirely accurate.

From the eve store page on steam:

"Play for FREE – Established players can eventually pay for their game time with in-game money they earn while playing."

Your "free to play" suggestion also has a cost, as no one could realistically play the game for years without ever training skills (It would be miserable) beyond the first month, so when you say "free to play" you are intentionally misleading.



What are you talking about? Aren't these and all F2P models misleading to some degree? They do want people's money for their own coffers, and we all know it. Free 2 Play specifically means that starting to play the game is Free. In the case of EVE that is true until one month (or other ***promotional*** offer) expires, at that time you MUST pay a PLEX worth of money to ACTIVATE your account. Hence it is not FREE TO PLAY, rather it is possible to play for free. I choose my words carefully and specifically based on what other actual free to play models follow.

What I have suggested would lower the barrier to entry so that more people come play EVE, not lower the barrier of retention for people that have already played for 2+ years.


Quote:

In practice your suggestion would result in CCPs largest, most active and most dedicated players (Veterans of EvE) mostly switching to no subscription. Because why not? We have so little left to train that it doesn't matter. If you're a combat pilot with near perfect gunnery, spaceship command, missile, drone etc skills, why do you care about "obscure skill that barely effects anything I do" rank V. Answer? you don't.



If this is true then EVE is in trouble anyway. As everyone is going to move on sooner than later. Yes, 10 years is impressive length for a game, but only a small amount of the current player base has played even close to that long. I don't think you mean 'vets' are the 10 year players, rather I think you count vets as say what 2+ years. If that is true then it probably is the largest part of the player base, but most of them have so much more to train and enjoy (ie CCP will get their money from them)

You also should think more before you write stuff. If EVE is only really played by vets then CCP is doing a terrible job at new player retention. One way to solve new player retention is to lower the barrier to entry (ie in my suggestion - cost)

Several people have suggested that I biomass myself for using the forum as intended, that is probably the reason I sound like I don't like the reaction to my suggestions, not because "I didn't think about it". Here's the thing VETS I don't care about you or myself. I care about the game I play and who I play it with. Most people that play are nerdy space trolls like myself. We are a self centered and egotistical bunch of smart asses that think we know everything. When in reality we got beat up a lot in highschool for being that way. That's fine... I liked it and still do... fuels the fire and got me where I am today. Suggesting that I didn't think about my idea when you yourself spent a whooping 10 minutes tops to develop your answer is offensive. Get over yourself people your not smarter than anyone, and you certainly aren't more right..


Troll Food for the masses