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Rapid Light/heavy launcher = crap

Author
Lhiara Longrifle
Les Mineurs Galactiques
#1 - 2013-11-22 04:45:10 UTC
here my issue with the new rapide light launcher and rapide heavy launcher:

1) they cut in half the ammount of ammo in those unit witch is quite idiotic since they are suposed to be mounted on a bigger ship therefore having a biger ammo clip

2) they quadruple the Reload time for no reason other then make you wait for your ship to blow ( if the ammo clip would be twice or four time the size of the normal unit then the reload time would have been justified )

so the question become: what use we have to buy rapid light/heavy launcher when you can get a better deal with the normal heavy and light misile launcher fitted on the bigger ship hull???
XUghUgh
Cyrus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-11-22 04:50:35 UTC
They are made to only be usable on things you can actually kill in 50 seconds. Otherwise, they are junk. Basically, they work for gangs and against frigates so in short, they are junk.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-11-22 05:28:12 UTC
So after some trial by fire. RLML Solo Caracals suck. They're really bad. Like die to three T1 frigates bad.

Small group/roams... I just finished one. And the RLML caracal is pretty damn bad there too. Imagine 10 Caracals shooting at enemy tackle coming into range. Imagine how many missiles you lose each time a frigate gets popped. It's not just the 18 missile clip that the Caracal has, its the missiles that don't even do damage because the target died before the missile reached it. You lose about 6 missiles per clip. This wasn't a big deal before, with 80-missile clips, now, 6 missiles is 33% of your damage.


Cyrus wrote:
They are made to only be usable on things you can actually kill in 50 seconds. Otherwise, they are junk. Basically, they work for gangs and against frigates so in short, they are junk.


So they even suck for small gangs against frigates. they get something like 130dps effective
Arrins Uta
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#4 - 2013-11-22 06:23:55 UTC
What is this like the tenth thread of people crying about the rlml? Its a burst weapon ment to be fitted on hit and run ships. So don't use them and pick a fight that needs to be a sustained fight. If you can't kill something quick don't engage. Its the same concept of getting into a close range brawl with artillery. Find a new use and a new way to fly with them.
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#5 - 2013-11-22 06:26:42 UTC
They are pro when you need to burst damage and reengage.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-11-22 07:21:29 UTC
Arrins Uta wrote:
What is this like the tenth thread of people crying about the rlml? Its a burst weapon ment to be fitted on hit and run ships. So don't use them and pick a fight that needs to be a sustained fight. If you can't kill something quick don't engage. Its the same concept of getting into a close range brawl with artillery. Find a new use and a new way to fly with them.

In that case Caldari pilots should get one extra mid to their ships so they can fit TP-web combo or TP x2 and use HAM's. I'm perfectly ok with burst-only RLML if that happens.
Deen Wispa
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-11-22 10:07:31 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
So after some trial by fire. RLML Solo Caracals suck. They're really bad. Like die to three T1 frigates bad.

Small group/roams... I just finished one. And the RLML caracal is pretty damn bad there too. Imagine 10 Caracals shooting at enemy tackle coming into range. Imagine how many missiles you lose each time a frigate gets popped. It's not just the 18 missile clip that the Caracal has, its the missiles that don't even do damage because the target died before the missile reached it. You lose about 6 missiles per clip. This wasn't a big deal before, with 80-missile clips, now, 6 missiles is 33% of your damage.




About that fight. You were a consistent damage dealer on most of the frigs we killed as was I. In fact, I didn't go through a reload until we had to warp off. Having said that, I do agree with your assessment that we are losing some of our DPS. If we're losing 33% of our damage, then that brings us back to the pre-nerf dps levels (assuming good missile skills). The way to help alleviate this is to lock up multiple frig targets and free fire. It's the same principle applied in Tier 3 gangs. You have so much alpha, that you can split DPS amongst several small targets. The new RLM isn't great but it'll have to do for now until CCP Rise realizes he goofed up big time



High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

Endo Scrote
xLegion of the dammedx.
Moose Alliance
#8 - 2013-11-22 10:43:15 UTC
A radical thought ....why not either ungroup or make more than 1 group if you are losing 33% of your missiles
Liam Inkuras
Wildcard.
Boundary Experts
#9 - 2013-11-22 12:56:45 UTC
Endo Scrote wrote:
A radical thought ....why not either ungroup or make more than 1 group if you are losing 33% of your missiles

Because that'd be radical and new. And change is bad

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2013-11-22 13:24:43 UTC
Endo Scrote wrote:
A radical thought ....why not either ungroup or make more than 1 group if you are losing 33% of your missiles



Because you just took either 2/5s or 3/5s of you DPS off the table depending on which set is active, and it doesn't come back. So your only recourse is to blap and run.
Garak n00biachi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-11-22 14:05:39 UTC
Give it 2 weeks and people will scream that its op......burst damage ALWAYS wins in mmo's.....who cares if your reload is 40seconds if your target is dead.
BobFenner
Black Hole Runners
#12 - 2013-11-22 14:18:40 UTC
I imagine the gankers will love these modules? Pirate
My missus thinks of EvE as 'the other woman'. :)
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-11-22 15:00:00 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
So after some trial by fire. RLML Solo Caracals suck. They're really bad. Like die to three T1 frigates bad.

Small group/roams... I just finished one. And the RLML caracal is pretty damn bad there too. Imagine 10 Caracals shooting at enemy tackle coming into range. Imagine how many missiles you lose each time a frigate gets popped. It's not just the 18 missile clip that the Caracal has, its the missiles that don't even do damage because the target died before the missile reached it. You lose about 6 missiles per clip. This wasn't a big deal before, with 80-missile clips, now, 6 missiles is 33% of your damage.


Cyrus wrote:
They are made to only be usable on things you can actually kill in 50 seconds. Otherwise, they are junk. Basically, they work for gangs and against frigates so in short, they are junk.


So they even suck for small gangs against frigates. they get something like 130dps effective


I'm not disagreeing with you, but what part of the change made it so?

Were you solo? If so, I don't see how a caracal can't blap 3-4 frigates easily in 50ish seconds. Or maybe there is some part of the change I don't understand?

I'll help you test, if you like.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#14 - 2013-11-22 15:10:15 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
So after some trial by fire. RLML Solo Caracals suck. They're really bad. Like die to three T1 frigates bad.

Small group/roams... I just finished one. And the RLML caracal is pretty damn bad there too. Imagine 10 Caracals shooting at enemy tackle coming into range. Imagine how many missiles you lose each time a frigate gets popped. It's not just the 18 missile clip that the Caracal has, its the missiles that don't even do damage because the target died before the missile reached it. You lose about 6 missiles per clip. This wasn't a big deal before, with 80-missile clips, now, 6 missiles is 33% of your damage.


This is one of those real combat situation things that totally kills the "EFT" warrioring that goes on when weapons are in development. Yea, "burst" DPs looks good on paper, but in a game that has modules that keep you from warping off, 40 seconds of down times = death.

Rapid launchers are highly situational weapons ie useless in a rapidly evolving combat situation. Even in PVE they are only useful on non-bonused hulls (Armageddon, Rattlesnake, Gila) for when small ships come close, as opposed to regular launchers that are also good against those same small ships AND can be used when you really need.


Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#15 - 2013-11-22 15:41:37 UTC
New Rapids Suck, They SUCK, They SSSSSUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-11-22 16:27:28 UTC
Garak n00biachi wrote:
burst damage ALWAYS wins in mmo's......


Not in the world of buffer fits.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#17 - 2013-11-22 17:15:08 UTC
CRAP!
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-11-22 18:24:19 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:

About that fight. You were a consistent damage dealer on most of the frigs we killed as was I. In fact, I didn't go through a reload until we had to warp off...extrawords.... free fire


I reloaded twice before we warped out the first time. So I was basically sitting there and watching my two Warrior II's chase around frigates for 80 seconds. But when I was shooting at frigates that were coming into range, I know I saw missiles fly into oblivion because the target was dead by the time the missiles reached him, or he burned out of range. (55km) Which is quite possible to do at 40km by burning away.




@ Hrett. This change would not be bad if Light Missiles were instant damage. Or even twice as fast as they are now. But losing missile volleys hurts a lot when you only have 18 missiles per clip.

Against T1 frigates, you have to be really careful because you don't carry very much tank on a RLML Caracal. 2 LSE's. Maybe a DCU, maybe an invul. Usually run a web/point/mwd/2LSEs + 3bcs/nano. The whole point of using the RLML caracal was killing the fastest frigate burning at you while kiting the rest. Going 2k and kiting frigates doesn't work when you can only kill the first two frigates that are coming at you. You don't have the luxury of reloading, you'll be scrammed/webbed and the rest of the blob will catch up to you. Before, the old RLML could put out enough DPS that you could kite the main blob while killing off the fast tacklers. Now, if you run out of missiles before the fast tacklers are all dead, you need to warp off (and lose the FW plex) or die. Since you can't even change ammo types reliably, someone did the math is the old F&I thread, and the Caracal can only barely kill a normal MSE Crow. The Crow turns on OH'd MWD and he survives your 18 missile clip, and probably more damage because he can outrun missiles at that kind of speed.



I'm still going to keep flying these since it's really all I have the SP for so I'll keep this thread updated with future stuff.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#19 - 2013-11-22 18:35:50 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Against T1 frigates, you have to be really careful because you don't carry very much tank on a RLML Caracal. 2 LSE's. Maybe a DCU, maybe an invul. Usually run a web/point/mwd/2LSEs + 3bcs/nano. The whole point of using the RLML caracal was killing the fastest frigate burning at you while kiting the rest. Going 2k and kiting frigates doesn't work when you can only kill the first two frigates that are coming at you. You don't have the luxury of reloading, you'll be scrammed/webbed and the rest of the blob will catch up to you. Before, the old RLML could put out enough DPS that you could kite the main blob while killing off the fast tacklers. Now, if you run out of missiles before the fast tacklers are all dead, you need to warp off (and lose the FW plex) or die. Since you can't even change ammo types reliably, someone did the math is the old F&I thread, and the Caracal can only barely kill a normal MSE Crow. The Crow turns on OH'd MWD and he survives your 18 missile clip, and probably more damage because he can outrun missiles at that kind of speed.
Old RLML Caracal was OP. It was a better destroyer in everything : range was equal, better dps, better tank, faster, and only the signature was higher. You were not soling fleets of frigates because you are good but because the ship was OP as an anti-frigate ship.

Oh, and complaining about only killing two of your ennemies when they largely outnumber you and are all faster than you is quite disturbing about your expetations.

Now RLML are a support anti-frigate weapon : focus on the light frigates of the ennemy and take them down while the fleet take care of the main targets. If you have a fleet of Caracals, just put two or three people for each ennemy frigate,and watch them pop. Otherwise use a destroyer ; they deserve to be flown too.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-11-22 18:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron' Soontir Fel
I don't think you know how much the Caracal trades away in order to hit frigate sized targets.
There's a reason Talwar gangs were used and not Caracal gangs.

And do you see any other Destroyer being used? LML Talwars are the only Destroyers used in large fleets. Because everything Destroyers can do, Cruisers can do better. And it's across the board, not just on missile ships.





And you know nothing about kiting with Caracals if you think killing two frigates is OP.
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