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rubicon kronos pve

Author
Tyrea Gaterau
Folktales
#21 - 2013-11-20 09:42:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrea Gaterau
Hi, I tried to fit Kronos and I can't decide which one is better, both are omni tank (bastion Big smile ) one use mainly blasters, second add some drone dmg. EFT numbers are one thing, application of that numbers is different.

What do you think? It works with T2, but these deadspace/factions modules are kinda cheap.

[Kronos, armor blaster LAR]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Centum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer

Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Large Micro Jump Drive

3x[empty high slot] whatever you want
Bastion Module I
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Hobgoblin II x5
Garde II x2
588 ehp/s sustained tank, 1436 ehp/s peak
1624 DPS with garde

[Kronos, armor blaster LAR with drones]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer

Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Large Micro Jump Drive

3x[empty high slot] whatever you want
Bastion Module I
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Hobgoblin II x5
Garde II x2
622ehp/s sustained tank, 1436ehp/s peak
1584 dps with garde
chaosjj
TxivYawg
#22 - 2013-11-20 10:09:04 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosjj
I use this fit for my Kronos, Thoughts?

High
4x 425mm Railgun II Caldari navy antimatter L ( 970 DPS )
2x small tractor beam II
1x Salvager II

Medium
Shadow serpentis tracking computer
100MN MicroWarpdrive
2x cap recharger II

low
1x Core B-type Large Armor repairer
1x Reactive armor hardener I
1x energized adaptive armor plating II
4x Federation navy Magnetic field stab's

Rig
1x T2 damage rig
1x CCC T1

drones
5x hammerhead II
5x hobgoblin II
Kenpo
The Guardians of the Beam
#23 - 2013-11-20 13:05:33 UTC
I refit my Kronos to use Blasters and Bastion module, so far I like it. I have two thoughts on setups, if you want to be a mobile sniper then use Rails and MJD, if you want to be the bunker then use Blasters and Bastion. I have run both setups and they do equally well survival wise. However, fit and run what you like, as long as it works for you its all good Blink

My current setup.

Magnetic Stabilizer II x3
Large Armor Repairer (choose your flavor)
Mission specific hardner (choose your flavor)
Mission specific hardner (choose your flavor)
Damage Control Unit II

Cap Recharger II
Tracking computer II (range script)
Tracking computer II (range script)
100MN Microwarpdrive (choose your flavor)

Bastion Module
Tractor beam II x3
Neutron Blaster Cannon II x4

Exp armor rig
EM armor rig

Hammerheads x5
Hobgoblins x5
Warriors x5
Salvage Drones x5


Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment.

I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
#24 - 2013-11-21 05:50:27 UTC  |  Edited by: I Accidentally YourShip
Do you people ever do missions like Pirate Invasion? How do you honestly think blasters have acceptable projection? Or even autocannons? If you aren't flying a Machariel you aren't fast enough, use a projection weapon system and go to town, rather than wasting precious seconds mitigating the range factor. At a mere 40km the rail kronos is now competitive with the blaster kronos, and the vast majority of engagements happen at around 30-60km. However, some happen at 70km, or farther. The rail fit is already competitive at the average engagement range, and it's significantly better at longer ranges. If you are doing one of the few missions where ships are on top of you on warp in, like World's Collide, just switch to blasters / autocannons. Otherwise, stop shooting yourself in the foot and wasting precious time burning into range.

Edit: Guess who can also legitimately supplement their dps with sentries much of the time? Not the blaster kronos. Rail kronos can burn to a gate while firing, drop sentries and bastion.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#25 - 2013-11-21 07:06:03 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Do you people ever do missions like Pirate Invasion? How do you honestly think blasters have acceptable projection?


because mission running is entirely composed of pirate invasion, and because an MWD won't move you at 1km/sec to fix range problems, the kronos doesn't have a marauder sized cargo bay to run the MWD on cap boosters all mission, and the kronos doesn't do over 1500 dps when its in range, and I can't possibly use a dominix for missions that the kronos is bad at.

Oh wait those are all wrong.

I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
#26 - 2013-11-21 09:34:02 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Do you people ever do missions like Pirate Invasion? How do you honestly think blasters have acceptable projection?


because mission running is entirely composed of pirate invasion, and because an MWD won't move you at 1km/sec to fix range problems, the kronos doesn't have a marauder sized cargo bay to run the MWD on cap boosters all mission, and the kronos doesn't do over 1500 dps when its in range, and I can't possibly use a dominix for missions that the kronos is bad at.

Oh wait those are all wrong.



World's Collide, Pirate Invasion, Dread Pirate Scarlet, Smash the Supplier, The Assault, The Blockade, Gone Berserk, Intercept the Saboteurs, Massive Attack, The Score, Silence the Informant, Vengeance (Serpentis) all have groups at 60+km and many of which are in different directions. Many of them have groups at 80-90km. Please tell me more about all those missions out there that don't have enemies that are spread out and far away.

Dominix is a good ship, but this is not about the Dominix. This is about marauders, specifically the Kronos and how rails are not the inferior weapon system on this ship. You can get 1004 dps with a rail kronos and 2 wardens, sentry dps is permitted in a rail build, you'll be hard pressed to apply drone dps consistently enough for it to matter with a blaster boat. Null does 1074 with the same damage profile, antimatter does 1348. Void is for battleship shooting, but for completeness provides 1510 dps at 12km. That's with bastion active. I wonder how many rats will burn away to just 17km in that time, bringing you down to antimatter dps levels with void. No bastion, you get antimatter dps at 15km.

Spending 30+ seconds to burn into antimatter range while shooting null, swapping to AM for 5 seconds of zero dps time plus server tick delay for reactivating the modules after reloading all the while you are getting out damaged by rails for the large portion of the travel time sounds like a waste of time.

Since apparently solutions seem to be use another ship, how about you use a machariel. 1153 turret dps with the same damage profile, 50% faster with an MWD, and selectable damage type. Amusingly enough the blaster kronos has better projection with null at all ranges compared to a machariel shooting fusion/emp etc however the speed should offset that advantage by a large margin. Especially since it accelerates to top speed a lot faster as well.

Oh right, that's not relevant because this thread isn't about Machariels or Dominixes, it's about a Kronos.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#27 - 2013-11-21 12:53:23 UTC
It does 1684 dps with 2x5% implants. Obviously with that huge slant to gun dps, you get a lot more value out of the implants.

1684 is a sufficiently interesting number to make up for movement. Off you go. Come back when you realise its fun to fly that way, and it isn't fun to fly it like a dominix tending sentries.

Dread pirate is actually ok by the way, because the packs won't split far, the extra spawn is right on top of you (nobody does the last pocket, best value is to loot the implant and go). WC you use a hackers card. Damsel is a rush. There are other missions where it works, and if you put your mind to managing the NPCs you'll find they won't have gone far. If you don't bastion, you can float after a bs with no transversal as it tries to get away, and you can angle it at the next one.

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#28 - 2013-11-21 12:59:39 UTC
also the targets are tanked, if I take 20 seconds less to actually kill a gurista or mordus battleship, it will generate 1000-3000 less hitpoints.

DaRiKavus
Mosh Pit
THE BESTICLES
#29 - 2013-11-21 15:52:55 UTC
Kronos with a mobile fitting module in cargohold so you can refit from MJD/MWD or Blaster Rails is clearly a concept that is blowing peoples minds for some reason.


Lows
2 x EANM/Reactive Hardner and LAR II (faction if you like though not needed)
3 Magstabs.

Mids
MJD or MWD
TC II with Optimal Range Script
Cap recharger II
Fed Navy Web


High Slots
Heavy Neutrons
Bastion Module
3 x Whatever

Rigs
2 x CCC


Use MWD to get into range quick with blasters. If futher away use MJD. Bastion up and profit.....its not hard.


Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#30 - 2013-11-21 16:06:29 UTC
With nuetron blaster, 2 tracking computers with range scripts and 1 ro 2 tacking enhancers what is the range with NUll and Void?
DaRiKavus
Mosh Pit
THE BESTICLES
#31 - 2013-11-21 16:23:00 UTC
Well in Bastion with a single TC II and Optimal Script loaded you can hit to 59Kms using Null and 36 Kms with Navy Anti-matter.

I am at work right now so I cant tell you Level V stuff or exact figures on your proposal I am sure someone will though.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#32 - 2013-11-21 16:33:47 UTC
What type of range and DPS do 425mm rails do?
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
#33 - 2013-11-21 21:14:59 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
It does 1684 dps with 2x5% implants. Obviously with that huge slant to gun dps, you get a lot more value out of the implants.

1684 is a sufficiently interesting number to make up for movement. Off you go. Come back when you realise its fun to fly that way, and it isn't fun to fly it like a dominix tending sentries.

Dread pirate is actually ok by the way, because the packs won't split far, the extra spawn is right on top of you (nobody does the last pocket, best value is to loot the implant and go). WC you use a hackers card. Damsel is a rush. There are other missions where it works, and if you put your mind to managing the NPCs you'll find they won't have gone far. If you don't bastion, you can float after a bs with no transversal as it tries to get away, and you can angle it at the next one.




Fun to fly this way? I've been flying that way for years with my Machariel. It gets old, perhaps to people who are used to sitting and watching this may be entertaining but it gets very old.

Void is not viable to shoot at anything but battleships, antimatter will give you better applied DPS against everything else. Switching between the two is a waste of time, especially with the very small engagement profile of void. The antimatter value is more viable at 1486. Still a 35% dps gain over the rail kronos but the application just isn't there 1km/s isn't fast enough to make up for it. Let's not forget that while the blaster kronos is slowboating into range it is vulnerable to jams, damps and tracking disruption. You really think that blaster dps makes up for its poor projection, vulnerability to ewar and inability to apply noteworthy drone dps much of the time?

Okay.
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
#34 - 2013-11-21 21:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: I Accidentally YourShip
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
What type of range and DPS do 425mm rails do?


1097 dps at V with 5% implants and two warden sentries. I wouldn't use gardes as even though they look good on paper they can't project without omnis.

Edit: They can push this dps out to 54+81, you can use different ammo types to push it a little bit further without sacrificing too much damage. Uranium should hit out to lock range or so.
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
#35 - 2013-11-21 21:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: I Accidentally YourShip
Tauranon wrote:
also the targets are tanked, if I take 20 seconds less to actually kill a gurista or mordus battleship, it will generate 1000-3000 less hitpoints.



Now this I can understand, though perhaps the better question is why are you missioning against guristas often enough for this to matter? They have poor bounties, they take much longer to kill than any other pirate faction, their engagement range is very far typically and the faction that gives them out the most has the worst LP stores.

Only if it takes slightly over a minute to kill with rails would blasters kill it approximately 20 seconds faster. It doesn't take a minute to kill a battleship with 1100 dps.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#36 - 2013-11-21 23:17:58 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
It does 1684 dps with 2x5% implants. Obviously with that huge slant to gun dps, you get a lot more value out of the implants.

1684 is a sufficiently interesting number to make up for movement. Off you go. Come back when you realise its fun to fly that way, and it isn't fun to fly it like a dominix tending sentries.

Dread pirate is actually ok by the way, because the packs won't split far, the extra spawn is right on top of you (nobody does the last pocket, best value is to loot the implant and go). WC you use a hackers card. Damsel is a rush. There are other missions where it works, and if you put your mind to managing the NPCs you'll find they won't have gone far. If you don't bastion, you can float after a bs with no transversal as it tries to get away, and you can angle it at the next one.




Fun to fly this way? I've been flying that way for years with my Machariel. It gets old, perhaps to people who are used to sitting and watching this may be entertaining but it gets very old.

Void is not viable to shoot at anything but battleships, antimatter will give you better applied DPS against everything else. Switching between the two is a waste of time, especially with the very small engagement profile of void. The antimatter value is more viable at 1486. Still a 35% dps gain over the rail kronos but the application just isn't there 1km/s isn't fast enough to make up for it. Let's not forget that while the blaster kronos is slowboating into range it is vulnerable to jams, damps and tracking disruption. You really think that blaster dps makes up for its poor projection, vulnerability to ewar and inability to apply noteworthy drone dps much of the time?

Okay.


As a railboat tending sentries with bastion and scripted tracking computer and javelin, 425s have 0.028 tracking, with gardes, a dominix and 1 Omni II, a garde II has 0.062 tracking, and most missions spawn up most of their hitpoints (20-50km) in the ranges where that matters (and if its optimal for the mission, I'll have 3 omnis on the ship). That is why when I make the observation that the kronos is only useful to me for missions it can do usefully faster than a dominix, and there are simply almost no missions that it can truly do that for in a railgun fit. It has similar dps and worse application until you get to the point where you are shooting beyond most of the mission hitpoints.

as for wardens without an omni having "application". yeah right. tracking of 0.012...


I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
#37 - 2013-11-21 23:30:04 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
It does 1684 dps with 2x5% implants. Obviously with that huge slant to gun dps, you get a lot more value out of the implants.

1684 is a sufficiently interesting number to make up for movement. Off you go. Come back when you realise its fun to fly that way, and it isn't fun to fly it like a dominix tending sentries.

Dread pirate is actually ok by the way, because the packs won't split far, the extra spawn is right on top of you (nobody does the last pocket, best value is to loot the implant and go). WC you use a hackers card. Damsel is a rush. There are other missions where it works, and if you put your mind to managing the NPCs you'll find they won't have gone far. If you don't bastion, you can float after a bs with no transversal as it tries to get away, and you can angle it at the next one.




Fun to fly this way? I've been flying that way for years with my Machariel. It gets old, perhaps to people who are used to sitting and watching this may be entertaining but it gets very old.

Void is not viable to shoot at anything but battleships, antimatter will give you better applied DPS against everything else. Switching between the two is a waste of time, especially with the very small engagement profile of void. The antimatter value is more viable at 1486. Still a 35% dps gain over the rail kronos but the application just isn't there 1km/s isn't fast enough to make up for it. Let's not forget that while the blaster kronos is slowboating into range it is vulnerable to jams, damps and tracking disruption. You really think that blaster dps makes up for its poor projection, vulnerability to ewar and inability to apply noteworthy drone dps much of the time?

Okay.


As a railboat tending sentries with bastion and scripted tracking computer and javelin, 425s have 0.028 tracking, with gardes, a dominix and 1 Omni II, a garde II has 0.062 tracking, and most missions spawn up most of their hitpoints (20-50km) in the ranges where that matters (and if its optimal for the mission, I'll have 3 omnis on the ship). That is why when I make the observation that the kronos is only useful to me for missions it can do usefully faster than a dominix, and there are simply almost no missions that it can truly do that for in a railgun fit. It has similar dps and worse application until you get to the point where you are shooting beyond most of the mission hitpoints.

as for wardens without an omni having "application". yeah right. tracking of 0.012...




They can apply their damage to battleships at ranges that it matters. And I never said the domi was inferior to the kronos, the domi is my multibox partner to my machariel, and it's probably too strong as is. That however is not relevant, as this thread is not about using domis to make up for blaster kronos weaknesses. It's about the usefulness of blasters vs rails. If you want to bring other ships into it, the paladin is superior to the kronos in all ways as it can apply its close range damage at over double the distance, and the machariel has powerful dps with the speed and damage application to match. Or you can drop tachs on a paladin and laugh.

So instead of using a blaster kronos why not use a paladin or machariel?

You really like watching your ship move into range don't you? What a waste of time. Even 20 seconds puts you behind. Assuming the blaster kronos kills ships about 5 seconds faster per battleship, it takes just 4 ships to break even. After you're done gaining your small lead with blasters do you know what the rail kronos is doing? Hitting the gate for the next pocket.

Aligning to a gate with an MWD marauder if you aren't flying in the direction of the warp is pain. Alignment of a marauder that was sitting at 0 to the gate is much less. The little things add up. You fly the way you want, I will fly the right way. In a machariel.
Jordanna Bauer
Taylor Swift Fanclub
#38 - 2013-11-22 02:32:33 UTC
This guy is actually trying to argue in favour of using Void in missions.

Actually.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#39 - 2013-11-22 05:50:24 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:


They can apply their damage to battleships at ranges that it matters. And I never said the domi was inferior to the kronos, the domi is my multibox partner to my machariel, and it's probably too strong as is. That however is not relevant, as this thread is not about using domis to make up for blaster kronos weaknesses. It's about the usefulness of blasters vs rails. If you want to bring other ships into it, the paladin is superior to the kronos in all ways as it can apply its close range damage at over double the distance, and the machariel has powerful dps with the speed and damage application to match. Or you can drop tachs on a paladin and laugh.



Its still unfortunately losing applied dps doing that (ie the dominix is closer to theory dps).

The point is people that fly kronos are generally gallente pilots, and it is a horribly dissapointing cross-grade from a dominix. It is also extremely doubtful when the rail and sentry hyperion puts out more raw dps and can actually work an omni into the fit (so can often make garde IIs reach targets effectively and or make wardens track tolerably).

Quote:


So instead of using a blaster kronos why not use a paladin or machariel?

You really like watching your ship move into range don't you? What a waste of time. Even 20 seconds puts you behind. Assuming the blaster kronos kills ships about 5 seconds faster per battleship, it takes just 4 ships to break even. After you're done gaining your small lead with blasters do you know what the rail kronos is doing? Hitting the gate for the next pocket.


No I don't actually. I'm pointing out that there _are_ missions where a blaster kronos is faster (ie damsel, wc serp/gurista), where as there really do not seem to be any where a rail kronos is faster. if I was to listen to you, I'd believe every single NPC spawned at 60km and flew away from me, and we both know that simply isn't true.

Quote:


Aligning to a gate with an MWD marauder if you aren't flying in the direction of the warp is pain. Alignment of a marauder that was sitting at 0 to the gate is much less. The little things add up. You fly the way you want, I will fly the right way. In a machariel.


So does waiting for bastion to stop after everything dies (or having to change ammo because you know your bastion is going to over run, so you need to shut it early). So does having to change from am to javelin to keep hitting things. So does having a tracking deadspot between 25 and the web. So does having to wait for everything to die to pick up the sentries to begin moving to the gate. So does having to use light drones because cruise missiles won't kill frigates. So does having to jump to the gate minutes early when using an MJD fit so that it will be "up" when you hit the next pocket. So does MJDing to too far away from the rats, because anywhere else won't let you MJD back to the gate effectively. Yada yada yada, every strategy has overhead tasks, whether they are front loaded or back loaded, whether you notice them or not.

again I do not care if you care about all the 1 seconds adding up on a blaster kronos, I use it for the missions where the elapsed time was less than a dominix, which is ample evidence that for some missions, the overheads are less than the advantages. This is not something I can honestly say is really much in evidence for the rail kronos.


Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#40 - 2013-11-22 08:18:31 UTC
Problem is, that you lose a lot of paper DPS, as soon as the target is 35+km away, if you use Blasters. With Rails, your tracking isn't that great and it will do under 1k DPS and has long cycling time.

A nice thing is the ewar invincibility in bastion mode. On the other hand, drones are shooting without locked targets.

Kronos ist still slightly better than a Dominix, but it also costs 1.5 bil.