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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#7761 - 2013-11-19 16:43:37 UTC
Rubicon is out, so let's hear info. +'s and -'s for the New Marauders. Skills needed, how are then in PvE, and PvP, etc, etc
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7762 - 2013-11-19 17:50:25 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Well, at least Rubicon has given us a new Metagame.

We can now jump into Anomalies with 4 Golems in a nice big square formation, and we all deploy a tractor beam structure. Then we all start shooting and play a big space game of Hungry Hungry Hippos.

Who ever gets the most in loot wins.


epic! Big smile

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7763 - 2013-11-19 17:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
Brib Vogt wrote:
[lots of good stuff]

Wow, that was more than I asked for, thank you. I was merely interested in comparison of performance of given fit between old and new marauder but you also checked different fits.

Okay, this 6-something minute time difference is quite significant. It would mean this chasing for optimal is worth the trouble (I think I will have to check it again; I tested some time ago and found the difference not too big).

Use of bastion is going to be matter of skill. The tactics which worked for me was to burn or MJD near suitable group, cycle bastion, start shooting away and as the cycle goes, decide whether give it next pulse or to move along. BTW, this MJD+AB fitting is what I've been using.

Quote:
Instant bastion vargur pilots will have the ship for lazy people but will increase time spend in missions quite a lot. I needed 8 more minutes in this site.

I agree that it's the lazy mode though I still feel there is room for improvement. I the way how I fly anyhow.

Quote:
If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.

Maybe I should go for some mission time in the opposite direction. It's the only empire where I didn't mission (not counting epic arcs)
Sh0plifter
Underworld Property Accounting Partnership
#7764 - 2013-11-19 18:24:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sh0plifter
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
Rubicon is out, so let's hear info. +'s and -'s for the New Marauders. Skills needed, how are then in PvE, and PvP, etc, etc


You made a funny. I like you.


Honestly, this ship is garbage. Get a T1 BS with a salvager, drop a mobile tractor beam and go to town with the same effect. Maybe even just run a noctis, that ship that made the marauder useless to begin with.

I still think the best option was to get rid of the tractorbeam + salvager bonuses. Replace it with more combat suited bonuses of some kind and let it out into open-world with the bastion mod still. If it had more of a combat role vs a NPC-fighting setup it would be used in PVP more often.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#7765 - 2013-11-19 19:13:54 UTC
I do what I can
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7766 - 2013-11-19 22:06:13 UTC
Sh0plifter wrote:
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
Rubicon is out, so let's hear info. +'s and -'s for the New Marauders. Skills needed, how are then in PvE, and PvP, etc, etc


You made a funny. I like you.


Honestly, this ship is garbage. Get a T1 BS with a salvager, drop a mobile tractor beam and go to town with the same effect. Maybe even just run a noctis, that ship that made the marauder useless to begin with.

I still think the best option was to get rid of the tractorbeam + salvager bonuses. Replace it with more combat suited bonuses of some kind and let it out into open-world with the bastion mod still. If it had more of a combat role vs a NPC-fighting setup it would be used in PVP more often.


lol the mobile tractor beam is a joke . 100m is alot when your cargo bay is 600. if it was smart and only tractor in Large wrecks with loot first then it might be useful.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7767 - 2013-11-19 23:07:56 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
lol the mobile tractor beam is a joke . 100m is alot when your cargo bay is 600. if it was smart and only tractor in Large wrecks with loot first then it might be useful.

It's for AFK miners and bots.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#7768 - 2013-11-20 06:11:30 UTC
Tramar wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:


.. some nice analysis ...

Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.

.. some revealing conclusions ...

So in the end:

If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.


Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it!


Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.


Not so sure about this.
The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's.
And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed.

The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion.

The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7769 - 2013-11-20 06:33:12 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Tramar wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:


.. some nice analysis ...

Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.

.. some revealing conclusions ...

So in the end:

If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.


Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it!


Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.


Not so sure about this.
The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's.
And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed.

The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion.

The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.


bastion is OP. especially after they buff kronos and paladin with optimal and falloff bonus.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#7770 - 2013-11-20 08:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
wasnt the bastion iteraction consulted and aproved by the csm in the first place ?
its not risk free you still can get ganked by a few maniacs that want to loot your shiny T2 stuff Twisted
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7771 - 2013-11-20 08:55:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Tramar wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:


.. some nice analysis ...

Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.

.. some revealing conclusions ...

So in the end:

If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.


Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it!


Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.


Not so sure about this.
The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's.
And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed.

The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion.

The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.


All missions were already risk free. Now they are less risk free, because if you disconnect while in bastion mode, you die.....


And be sure that traveling in high sec is nto risk free on some certain gates :P


Overall bastion made even easier to run missions. A bit faster on my paladin, quite slower on my vargur. Vargur probably will never undock again, will sell it for a golem.

Wish the bastion module had a smaller tank bonus (like 50%) but with some damage bonus (like 15% even)



"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7772 - 2013-11-20 08:57:58 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Tramar wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:


.. some nice analysis ...

Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.

.. some revealing conclusions ...

So in the end:

If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.


Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it!


Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.


what it lose ? a little bit in top speed? it is no worst than the old vargur. I rather take the bastion vargur everytime. now all i need is 2 slots to tank + bastion the rest can be for mwd, cap booster, tracking comps.

Btw, i think they ninja in 50 bandwidth so now you can use 2 sentry drones in vargur.


You already neede donly 2 slots to tank! I ran so many times even angel extravaganza extra pocket with only 2 modules tank (and crystal set)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tramar
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7773 - 2013-11-20 09:54:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tramar
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Not so sure about this.
The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's.
And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed.

The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion.

The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.

Well loosing the web-bonus is bad, but still they outperform Vargur in other aspects completely.

Nerfing the Maradeurs? - they are still worse than pirate ships and even some navy ships. Also they are the only t2 combat ship not seen/not needed in pvp, so yeah, lets nerf them!
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#7774 - 2013-11-20 11:31:22 UTC
what happened to the +30% tracking bonus? that was huge for us using large weapons to hit small stuff moving quickly.. =\
Cmd BenJames
Pikachu's Paradise
#7775 - 2013-11-20 11:50:57 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
what happened to the +30% tracking bonus? that was huge for us using large weapons to hit small stuff moving quickly.. =\


There never was one, it was a typo right at the start of the thread which was noted.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7776 - 2013-11-20 16:21:05 UTC
Tramar wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Not so sure about this.
The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's.
And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed.

The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion.

The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.

Well loosing the web-bonus is bad, but still they outperform Vargur in other aspects completely.

Nerfing the Maradeurs? - they are still worse than pirate ships and even some navy ships. Also they are the only t2 combat ship not seen/not needed in pvp, so yeah, lets nerf them!


how are they worst than pirate ships? you try to do pve with 2 slot tank in a pirate ship then come back and see how you like that..
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7777 - 2013-11-20 17:08:19 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Tramar wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:


.. some nice analysis ...

Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.

.. some revealing conclusions ...

So in the end:

If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.


Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it!


Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.


Not so sure about this.
The Paladin and Kronos are totally finished in Incursion VG's.
And the Paladin was always terrible in 3 of the 4 racial mission types, and that has not changed.

The best part is 2 bloggers, one of them a CSM member, are already starting up the campaign to nerf the Marauder or Bastion module, since it is OP, in their opinion.

The CSM member's reasons were classic. One was that the ships are now "risk-free" in high sec.....yup, a ship with about a quarter the EHP of a freighter is always safe. And the other reason, which is the best reason, is because they are OP for alliance tourneys....you know, those contrived fights that affect less than 1% of the player base.


Here's one reason to nerf (I mean remove) the bastion nonsense:
Load up EFT and fit up a golem with pith a-type passive resistance amps, 2 x-large ancillary shield boosters, a bastion module, DC and cargo expanders (including rigs).

You will need to downgrade to heavy missiles because of CPU.

So what do we get?

A ship that is 100% neut-proof, that with links, crystals and blue pill can *continuously* tank 10,000 hp/s. (i.e. a fleet of 12 T3s).

It can tank this damage for 35 reloads (due cargo bay) of the alternating ASB modules. Unless the enemy fleet brings more than 10,000 dps this ship has an EHP number of something like 15,000,000.

This is as much as a small POS.

In this configuration, the golem is still putting out 600dps or thereabouts, but that's not the point. With all those high slots you can slip in a cyno.

All this puppy has to do is anchor a small bubble near a gate, cloak up and wait. The moment a small fleet gets caught in the bubble, decloak and *HOTDROP*.

It's an unkillable cyno bait ship.

This will also be used in WH space, where it will nullify all WH pvp since no-one in their right mind will engage one due to the impossibility of killing it before reinforcements turn up.

These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.

While they are OP, I will be training for one of course...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7778 - 2013-11-20 17:13:47 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Here's one reason to nerf (I mean remove) the bastion nonsense:
Load up EFT and fit up a golem with pith a-type passive resistance amps, 2 x-large ancillary shield boosters, a bastion module, DC and cargo expanders (including rigs).

You will need to downgrade to heavy missiles because of CPU.

So what do we get?

A ship that is 100% neut-proof, that with links, crystals and blue pill can *continuously* tank 10,000 hp/s. (i.e. a fleet of 12 T3s).

It can tank this damage for 35 reloads (due cargo bay) of the alternating ASB modules. Unless the enemy fleet brings more than 10,000 dps this ship has an EHP number of something like 15,000,000.

This is as much as a small POS.

In this configuration, the golem is still putting out 600dps or thereabouts, but that's not the point. With all those high slots you can slip in a cyno.

All this puppy has to do is anchor a small bubble near a gate, cloak up and wait. The moment a small fleet gets caught in the bubble, decloak and *HOTDROP*.

It's an unkillable cyno bait ship.

This will also be used in WH space, where it will nullify all WH pvp since no-one in their right mind will engage one due to the impossibility of killing it before reinforcements turn up.

These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.

While they are OP, I will be training for one of course...



that is a problem with being able to fit 2 X-LARGE ANCILLARY SHIELD BOOSTERS, the solution to this is the same thing they did to armor when they released the ARR's make it 1 per ship.

you can't do the same thing with armor. So that still leads back to the conclusion that it's the x-large ancillary shield boosters that is the problem.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7779 - 2013-11-20 17:24:16 UTC
Shantetha wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Here's one reason to nerf (I mean remove) the bastion nonsense:
Load up EFT and fit up a golem with pith a-type passive resistance amps, 2 x-large ancillary shield boosters, a bastion module, DC and cargo expanders (including rigs).

You will need to downgrade to heavy missiles because of CPU.

So what do we get?

A ship that is 100% neut-proof, that with links, crystals and blue pill can *continuously* tank 10,000 hp/s. (i.e. a fleet of 12 T3s).

It can tank this damage for 35 reloads (due cargo bay) of the alternating ASB modules. Unless the enemy fleet brings more than 10,000 dps this ship has an EHP number of something like 15,000,000.

This is as much as a small POS.

In this configuration, the golem is still putting out 600dps or thereabouts, but that's not the point. With all those high slots you can slip in a cyno.

All this puppy has to do is anchor a small bubble near a gate, cloak up and wait. The moment a small fleet gets caught in the bubble, decloak and *HOTDROP*.

It's an unkillable cyno bait ship.

This will also be used in WH space, where it will nullify all WH pvp since no-one in their right mind will engage one due to the impossibility of killing it before reinforcements turn up.

These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.

While they are OP, I will be training for one of course...



that is a problem with being able to fit 2 X-LARGE ANCILLARY SHIELD BOOSTERS, the solution to this is the same thing they did to armor when they released the ARR's make it 1 per ship.

you can't do the same thing with armor. So that still leads back to the conclusion that it's the x-large ancillary shield boosters that is the problem.


That's a fair point actually, and one I wholeheartedly agree with.

I have a dual-asb cloaky tengu which quite happily tanked a fleet of 5 until I could jump through a wormhole 3 times to finally evade them (i.e. the engagement lasted over 4 minutes). They had neuts and dps on me all through the engagement - i wasn't in danger once.

utter crap.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Tarmaniel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7780 - 2013-11-20 18:03:16 UTC
Triage Paladin is also pretty hilarious, you can fit out a Paladin to cap stably run 7 large remote reps while local tanking about 7500 DPS, and you don't even need to involve deadspace modules.