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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Fire Forager
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#7741 - 2013-11-18 20:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Fire Forager
Look on the bright side, gonna be loads of marauders for sale cheap, cos nobody is gonna want one. What Bastion stupid idea.

It is something, that in my 8+ years of eve, I've always admired, no matter how stupid the idea, or how many people tell them it sux, ccp still blindly carry on and do it anyway.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7742 - 2013-11-18 20:57:17 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
[....]before rebalancing Vargur was the best marauder. It's others which were brought more to the line so yes, in comparison it may not be as awesome as it used to be.


Mega crap. Have you seen Vargurs in Incursions? I havn't. And now all other marauders might be gone too. Vargurs were the best marauder when applying damage through moving towards the npcs. Thats reduced now too.

My winner now is cruise golem as the easiest to handle T2 BS. Vargur is still good, but this has nothing to do with anything correlated to the bastion module itself. I, for myself, think my style of playing the vargur and keeping the ticks high has been nerfed.


Not once and not twice I have agreed that marauders got shafted incursions wise. Maybe players will adapt or maybe it will be impossible, I don't judge on that. The upside is that basically every other activity got boosted. I can vouch for L4 missions and there were people reporting good results with other stuff.

Going back to Vargur. The falloff bonus is still there, the tracking bonus is still there. Speed is lowered, okay, but I'm still waiting for anyone reporting HOW MUCH lower income they now generate. Could it be you?
Julie Thorne
Project Insanity
#7743 - 2013-11-18 23:31:46 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:

Not once and not twice I have agreed that marauders got shafted incursions wise. Maybe players will adapt or maybe it will be impossible, I don't judge on that. The upside is that basically every other activity got boosted. I can vouch for L4 missions and there were people reporting good results with other stuff.

Going back to Vargur. The falloff bonus is still there, the tracking bonus is still there. Speed is lowered, okay, but I'm still waiting for anyone reporting HOW MUCH lower income they now generate. Could it be you?


The issue is not that the Vargur will get worse. It is that it is standing still, while everything else is getting better. Not just other marauders. EVERYTHING. What do you think how much more income a Mach or RNI pilot will generate with the help of the new mobile structures?

At least the other marauders will have unique qualities which will make them better in some cases than their faction/pirate variants. Unfortunately EW immunity is fairly useless against Angels so I will have absolutely no reason to fly my Vargur over my Mach.
Sir Spottington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7744 - 2013-11-19 00:16:52 UTC
at risk of being flamed

when did they put the 30% resists back in? i thought that went?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#7745 - 2013-11-19 00:42:41 UTC
Sir Spottington wrote:
at risk of being flamed

when did they put the 30% resists back in? i thought that went?


Hundreds of pages ago, when they decided that Marauder Rebalance v2 was terrible.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#7746 - 2013-11-19 02:35:09 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
[....]before rebalancing Vargur was the best marauder. It's others which were brought more to the line so yes, in comparison it may not be as awesome as it used to be.


Mega crap. Have you seen Vargurs in Incursions? I havn't. And now all other marauders might be gone too. Vargurs were the best marauder when applying damage through moving towards the npcs. Thats reduced now too.

My winner now is cruise golem as the easiest to handle T2 BS. Vargur is still good, but this has nothing to do with anything correlated to the bastion module itself. I, for myself, think my style of playing the vargur and keeping the ticks high has been nerfed.


Not once and not twice I have agreed that marauders got shafted incursions wise. Maybe players will adapt or maybe it will be impossible, I don't judge on that. The upside is that basically every other activity got boosted. I can vouch for L4 missions and there were people reporting good results with other stuff.

Going back to Vargur. The falloff bonus is still there, the tracking bonus is still there. Speed is lowered, okay, but I'm still waiting for anyone reporting HOW MUCH lower income they now generate. Could it be you?


The upcoming patch was made to promote new stuff. I endorse the design of the stratios, i love the new mobile structure and i like the advantages my cruise golem gets with bastion. Damage application rises with the chance to fit multiple TPs, to reduce tank and to jump around with mjd. It isn't like the golem wasn't able to tank all lvl 4 missions, but at least now you can do it semi afk.

To take advantage from bastion in an ac vargur; the Arty abomination might actually be seen in incursions but not in lvl4s with its puny dps; you need a very special situation.

  • You have to fly missions in non minmatar space
  • You have to rely on long range situations.
  • You have to hope that you can forget, that moving 4 km towards the npcs gives more dps then the bastion module.

    • To take advantage of a mjd you need to fit dual prop because even the mjd does not increase dps significantly if you can't land and stay within 30km of the npcs.

    My dominix fitted with a standard mjd does more damage with higher application then the actual vargur.

    So to answer your question: I will maintain the ticks in minmatar space with my old fitting, but i will lose a lot of isks compared to all other marauders atm you want to utilize the advantages of bastion in e-war rich areas.


    Sorry for the wall of text, but i am so angry about the way ccps devs presented their communication. It would have been better to make a single post (This is what we will do...) and close this thread afterwards for public postings, instead of giving me the illusions to help them make it right. Right now it is just a prestige object of a devs imagination without pointing a marauder overhaul to the individual problems of each marauder/marauder setup. Arty vargur, Torp golem and other combination still need some love.
    hmskrecik
    TransMine Group
    Gluten Free Cartel
    #7747 - 2013-11-19 07:33:33 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
    Brib Vogt wrote:
    I will maintain the ticks in minmatar space with my old fitting, but i will lose a lot of isks compared to all other marauders atm you want to utilize the advantages of bastion in e-war rich areas.

    And one day I will fly a Titan. The question is, do we know it or we're merely speculating? Or, to stay on topic, did you measure your performance in any way?

    If no then the discussion pretty much ends to me. Except for maybe asking, more or less politely, how the hell do you know something you don't measure.

    If yes, then there would follow two another questions:

    - What are your results?

    - How did you measure it? What were conditions, what were you looking at or after and in case our results were dramatically different, briefly describe how did you fly your ship.

    This second question is specifically tailored to avoid whole the thing becoming e-peen comparison. What I want to compare is notes.

    Anyway the case is moot since after today's DT we won't have old marauders anymore so everyone will happily stick to their already set convictions.

    To the rest of your comments.:
    - I don't share your sentiment that devs were sitting in their ivory tower when working on this. There were three updates after all and unless I am mistaken, they were based also on feedback in this very thread.
    - Yes, the MJD can't replace other prop module and we have to deal with it.
    - I admit I don't have it properly theorycrafted but it's a simple observation: sometimes moving 4km towards your present target moves you 4km away from the next one in queue. So it's not always as simple as just dogchasing.
    - After experience trying them on Machariel, I have no idea where arties could be useful in PVE on falloff bonused hull and I accept it as a fact. But I'm open to suggestions.
    Brib Vogt
    Doomheim
    #7748 - 2013-11-19 08:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
    hmskrecik wrote:
    Brib Vogt wrote:
    I will maintain the ticks in minmatar space with my old fitting, but i will lose a lot of isks compared to all other marauders atm you want to utilize the advantages of bastion in e-war rich areas.

    And one day I will fly a Titan. The question is, do we know it or we're merely speculating? Or, to stay on topic, did you measure your performance in any way?

    If no then the discussion pretty much ends to me. Except for maybe asking, more or less politely, how the hell do you know something you don't measure.

    If yes, then there would follow two another questions:

    - What are your results?

    - How did you measure it? What were conditions, what were you looking at or after and in case our results were dramatically different, briefly describe how did you fly your ship.

    This second question is specifically tailored to avoid whole the thing becoming e-peen comparison. I want to compare notes.

    Anyway the case is moot since after today's DT we won't have old marauders anymore so everyone will happily stick to their already set convictions.

    To the rest of your comments.:
    - I don't share your sentiment that devs were sitting in their ivory tower when working on this. There were three updates after all and unless I am mistaken, they were based also on feedback in this very thread.
    - Yes, the MJD can't replace other prop module and we have to deal with it.
    - I admit I don't have it properly theorycrafted but it's a simple observation: sometimes moving 4km towards your present target moves you 4km away from the next one in queue. So it's not always as simple as just dogchasing.
    - After experience trying them on Machariel, I have no idea where arties could be useful in PVE on falloff bonused hull and I accept it as a fact. But I'm open to suggestions.


    I was flying missions for SoE in langisi minmatar space on SiSi. I flew 4 Angel Extravaganza with different vargur setups and in the end 2 assaults with the 2 final setups. I salvaged with an altchar so i only looted mission specific items or the implant in AE pocket 4.

    AE:
  • AC Vargur with Bastion, 1 Invul, 1Booster, rest tracking
  • AC Vargur with Bastion, MWD+cap booster
  • AC Vargur with bastion, AB + MJD
  • AT Vargur with bastion, MJD lots of TCs

    • While against angels i didn't need to take advantage of the of the e-war immunity, i flew one with instant bastion after entering area. It works good in pocket 1,2 and 3 but last spawns in 4 and 5 and the extra pocket take quite some time.

    especially pocket 4 increases time spend inside of the pocket if vargur doesn't move. Reduces dps by 40%. Tactical movement with spawn 3 and 4 allows much more dps applied, therefore reduce time spend in site.

    Always bastioned vargur needed 6:40mins longer in this site compared to free flying vargur with its less fall-off on the paper.

    Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.

    Assault:
  • AC Vargur with Bastion, 1 Invul, 1Booster, rest tracking
  • AC Vargur with Bastion, MWD+cap booster

    • I decided to only measure time between this both.

    To know what to kill first makes the big difference in this mission. If you do it wrong you will be damped for the first minutes before you reach the npcs or you switch on bastion. So with MWD Vargur i instantly moved into the npcs and switched on bastion. I killed all damp cruiser on my way and was not in the need to use bastion because of e-war immunity, but because of necessary tank.

    after some cycles i burned to BS group - bastion - and back to gate. Works good, will be my final setup.

    Instant bastion vargur pilots will have the ship for lazy people but will increase time spend in missions quite a lot. I needed 8 more minutes in this site.

    Of course i did mistakes with the bastion some times so you could go down to 7 or even 6 more minutes needed. but still noticeable difference.

    So in the end:

    If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #7749 - 2013-11-19 09:05:21 UTC
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    Sir Spottington wrote:
    at risk of being flamed

    when did they put the 30% resists back in? i thought that went?


    Hundreds of pages ago, when they decided that Marauder Rebalance v2 was terrible.



    In fact i prefered that second iteration, sans the web bonus.

    With that it would at least be usable on PVP. Since bastion is a suicidal button in PVP, marauders are sleaed of from serious PVP for another 5 years.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #7750 - 2013-11-19 09:08:23 UTC
    Mer88 wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    Mer88 wrote:
    the vargur is not a bad ship, just bad compare to the other marauder. it is still way better than many other BS.


    Perhaps this is because I can't actually fly a Vargur on TQ, but I will say that on SiSi I rather like the Vargur - both in AB-powered and Bastion-powered modes - and look forward to flying the hell out of it.

    In Rust We Trust.™




    Let me point you to:

    Vargur was the marauder that lost MOST speed.

    Vargur was the marauder that reduced the LEAST its signature radius.

    Vargur is the marauder that gained LEAST range from bastion.

    Vargur is the Maraurder that has highest difficulties on fighting at 100 km ( MJD).


    we are talking about pve here. sig radius is useless especially when bastion is turn on. , speed while useful wont make a big difference to overall mission time. on the plus side they made all marauders more agile so it should help gun boats outside of bastion to reduce transverse more. IMO, vargur is pretty much the same as the old vargur. if you like the tq vargur you will like the new vargur. with the mobile depot, you can switch to artillery for 100km fights.



    Sig radius is NOT useles. Anyone that knows how to fly a vargur knows that. I used to be able to finish several mission boosting my shield only 2 times. Mitigating ALL damage with speed and signature.

    And NO you wil not liek new vargur. Because now if you are smart you will dump it and get a golem or a paladin that are both FAR superior

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Anize Oramara
    WarpTooZero
    #7751 - 2013-11-19 09:08:55 UTC
    What I've found works great in almost all missions with the new bastion is to purposefully kill the triggers first. what this does is it gets everything spawned faster meaning esp in angels the rats are closer to you faster meaning you do more damage.

    also in my honest opinion if you are NOT salvaging and looting while running the mission then what in the hell are you doing in a marauder in the first place? you are quite literally doing it wrong.

    And the new tractor beam structure? it improves all marauders efficiency (long range like pally a bit more perhaps) by quite a bit. also dont forgetbthe mobile depo.

    A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #7752 - 2013-11-19 09:34:37 UTC
    Anize Oramara wrote:
    What I've found works great in almost all missions with the new bastion is to purposefully kill the triggers first. what this does is it gets everything spawned faster meaning esp in angels the rats are closer to you faster meaning you do more damage.

    also in my honest opinion if you are NOT salvaging and looting while running the mission then what in the hell are you doing in a marauder in the first place? you are quite literally doing it wrong.

    And the new tractor beam structure? it improves all marauders efficiency (long range like pally a bit more perhaps) by quite a bit. also dont forgetbthe mobile depo.



    Since all the nerf salvaging and looting is worth barelly a couple million per mission. Much better to use the fittings for something better.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Quish McQuiddy
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #7753 - 2013-11-19 10:16:07 UTC
    Brib Vogt wrote:


    .. some nice analysis ...

    Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.

    .. some revealing conclusions ...

    So in the end:

    If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.


    Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it!

    On to Gallente BS 4 for me - 5 next, Machariel is the only option left for the Minmatar pilot.
    Anize Oramara
    WarpTooZero
    #7754 - 2013-11-19 10:55:31 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Anize Oramara wrote:
    What I've found works great in almost all missions with the new bastion is to purposefully kill the triggers first. what this does is it gets everything spawned faster meaning esp in angels the rats are closer to you faster meaning you do more damage.

    also in my honest opinion if you are NOT salvaging and looting while running the mission then what in the hell are you doing in a marauder in the first place? you are quite literally doing it wrong.

    And the new tractor beam structure? it improves all marauders efficiency (long range like pally a bit more perhaps) by quite a bit. also dont forgetbthe mobile depo.



    Since all the nerf salvaging and looting is worth barelly a couple million per mission. Much better to use the fittings for something better.

    my previously published numbers prove this to be a lie. salvage and loot is usually between double to sometimes almost triple the bounty value of a site.

    why you lie so much?

    A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
    Tramar
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #7755 - 2013-11-19 13:50:22 UTC
    Quish McQuiddy wrote:
    Brib Vogt wrote:


    .. some nice analysis ...

    Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.

    .. some revealing conclusions ...

    So in the end:

    If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.


    Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it!


    Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.
    Mer88
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #7756 - 2013-11-19 13:59:22 UTC
    Tramar wrote:
    Quish McQuiddy wrote:
    Brib Vogt wrote:


    .. some nice analysis ...

    Arty vargur was a disgrace. it took me so much longer that i didn't flew extra pocket. So much clicking. All guns ungrouped + Targetpainter (yes i know it is unusual but it works much better than a third tc) makes 5 things to switch on and off. terrible.

    .. some revealing conclusions ...

    So in the end:

    If i leave minmatar space to fly in areas where e-war is more common i need to use bastion more often which will translate into less isk/hour.


    Yes - as I sit here waiting for the end of my time using a Marauder in all mission, I know that I wont use it anywhere. Artillery is terribad and gets nothing from the changes, and 'flying' ships seems to be getting nerfed with the MJDbastion doctrine. I never ran missions for pure speed, just as a time killer in some respects. The vargur flew nicely and killed that time pleasurably - perhaps the only BS doing it with flair ... the speed nerf makes it feel like a Maelstrom .. and this is what they made it!


    Yep, after this rebalance Vargur is the Maradeur which lost the most and gained the least.


    what it lose ? a little bit in top speed? it is no worst than the old vargur. I rather take the bastion vargur everytime. now all i need is 2 slots to tank + bastion the rest can be for mwd, cap booster, tracking comps.

    Btw, i think they ninja in 50 bandwidth so now you can use 2 sentry drones in vargur.
    Tramar
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #7757 - 2013-11-19 14:16:37 UTC
    Mer88 wrote:


    what it lose ? a little bit in top speed? it is no worst than the old vargur. I rather take the bastion vargur everytime. now all i need is 2 slots to tank + bastion the rest can be for mwd, cap booster, tracking comps.

    Btw, i think they ninja in 50 bandwidth so now you can use 2 sentry drones in vargur.

    It's now a totally inferior Maradeur it lost a lot of it's speed in mvd/ab setups, gained a useless bonus for an mjd and gains the least from bastion bonuses compared to other ships. It's also less cap-stable now
    Edward Olmops
    Gunboat Commando
    #7758 - 2013-11-19 15:24:37 UTC
    But you can hardly argue that the Vargur has got the coolest deployment animation. ;-)

    Also, just if you are interested in a little controversy, check out Jester's Trek, where our CSM delegate Ripard Teg lays out in his piece "Shake your money-maker" why marauders have as of today become incredibly powerful PvE machines.
    Mer88
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #7759 - 2013-11-19 15:42:25 UTC
    Tramar wrote:
    Mer88 wrote:


    what it lose ? a little bit in top speed? it is no worst than the old vargur. I rather take the bastion vargur everytime. now all i need is 2 slots to tank + bastion the rest can be for mwd, cap booster, tracking comps.

    Btw, i think they ninja in 50 bandwidth so now you can use 2 sentry drones in vargur.

    It's now a totally inferior Maradeur it lost a lot of it's speed in mvd/ab setups, gained a useless bonus for an mjd and gains the least from bastion bonuses compared to other ships. It's also less cap-stable now


    hmm kronos got cap issues due to guns sucking it dry. golem still has target speed issue that result in major lost of dps , paladin still em /themr damage only. vargur lost some speed but it gain so much more. put a nano fiber in the low and you get your speed back. i personally use 4 TCs and change script according to what is needed.
    DSpite Culhach
    #7760 - 2013-11-19 16:40:47 UTC
    Well, at least Rubicon has given us a new Metagame.

    We can now jump into Anomalies with 4 Golems in a nice big square formation, and we all deploy a tractor beam structure. Then we all start shooting and play a big space game of Hungry Hungry Hippos.

    Who ever gets the most in loot wins.

    I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.