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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Naxirian
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2721 - 2013-11-17 18:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Naxirian
Orionos Irvam wrote:
Naxirian wrote:
So..... been fiddling around with setups.... I can't believe how overpowered these ships are for PvP purposes. You can get a Stratios to 700-800 dps with 50k EHP *and* a covert ops cloak. I believe we just witnessed the death of all the other PvP cruisers. There's simply no reason to use them, ever, if you can get hold of one of these. They're superior in combat *and* they can cloak. The Stratios needs seriously looking at. Even the Astero can do 150 dps and have just under 10k EHP, with a covert ops cloak. That's just ridiculously OP.

Given the SoE's peaceful intentions they should remove the ability to fit warp disruptors/scramblers to them or something, to prevent them from being used as solo-wtf-fu-pwnmobiles in PvP, but still capable of defending themselves. Right now they're basically mediocre exploration ships with incredible PvP abilities. Which is wrong.


I feel that this really should be looked at by the powers that be. These should be seen as primarily exploration ships and as Nax says, it looks like they will be pretty mediocre in that role. Come on guys...you've still got a couple of days to tweek these ships. Stick the extra drone bandwidth back on the stratios at least! If these could be seens as viable ships for low sec exploration, which I believe they aren't really at the moment, then your plans to get more people out of high sec might actually work!


Indeed, I added a little more to my post after that. The bonus for tanking is wrong imo.

This seems like a really weird move considering CCP has been focused entirely on balancing the ships out lately, then introduces a new ship that makes all the old cruisers, even some of the T2 ones, completely obselete. This is *not* a balanced ship, and the bonuses are wrong for a ship intended for exploration.

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Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#2722 - 2013-11-17 20:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Dehval
Orionos Irvam wrote:
Naxirian wrote:
So..... been fiddling around with setups.... I can't believe how overpowered these ships are for PvP purposes. You can get a Stratios to 700-800 dps with 50k EHP *and* a covert ops cloak. I believe we just witnessed the death of all the other PvP cruisers. There's simply no reason to use them, ever, if you can get hold of one of these. They're superior in combat *and* they can cloak. The Stratios needs seriously looking at. Even the Astero can do 150 dps and have just under 10k EHP, with a covert ops cloak. That's just ridiculously OP.

Given the SoE's peaceful intentions they should remove the ability to fit warp disruptors/scramblers to them or something, to prevent them from being used as solo-wtf-fu-pwnmobiles in PvP, but still capable of defending themselves. Right now they're basically mediocre exploration ships with incredible PvP abilities. Which is wrong.


I feel that this really should be looked at by the powers that be. These should be seen as primarily exploration ships and as Nax says, it looks like they will be pretty mediocre in that role. Come on guys...you've still got a couple of days to tweek these ships. Stick the extra drone bandwidth back on the stratios at least! If these could be seens as viable ships for low sec exploration, which I believe they aren't really at the moment, then your plans to get more people out of high sec might actually work!
Putting artificial restrictions on the ship is not a good way to go about balancing. It is a cheap cop out that goes against the sandbox design of the game by removing options for players. It should only be used as a balancing tool as an absolute last resort.

I do agree that the ship needs an active tank bonus over passive. Swapping the bonuses (Amarr 10% drone, Gallente 7.5% rep) would probably be about right as they still fit their racial lines. I am also slightly leaning towards the idea that the ship is lacking in the tanking department to complete most/all low-sec sites, but we are not given access to dedspace or faction modules. Even C-types are a drastic increase in performance over T2 for a very little increase in relative cost compared to the hull so I would suggest waiting until the ship hits live before you make a final verdict. If not then maybe a redistribution of a mid to low is in order (1 less slot for application, can't dual-web and fit a Cap booster to run the active tank).

I also cannot agree to the reducing of the damage bonus to return the ship's 5th drone. It would result in roughly the same dps, but the drone bay would now be relatively smaller. No longer being able to fit 4 flights spare of heavies/sentries but instead only 3 + 5 lights. Seems like people's desire to sedate their self-diagnosed 'OCD' would end up harming the ship more than helping it.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2723 - 2013-11-17 20:59:25 UTC
Naxirian wrote:

-snip-
That's just ridiculously OP.
-snip-


A 1000dps Vigilant with a 90% web is totally fine, a 800dps very very large Angel frigate (Cynabel) is fine and the Gila with 900dps is fine.
How is a 700dps cloaky Maller op?

There are only three things wrong with the Stratios, some values on the hull and a typo with the drone bandwidth:

Stratios with level V fitting skills has
- 2432hp shield <- ?
- 3000hp armor
- 3042hp hull <- ?
- 100mbit drone bandwidth <- you meant 125mbit of course Blink

Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1920 (-30) / 2400 / 2480 (+30) <- there you go

Now if we would drop one turret slot (makes 3 instead of 4) and give it a 5 or 7.5% damage bonus to lasers, all will be fine.
(That frees up one high that can be fitted with something you like)

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#2724 - 2013-11-17 21:06:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I have two Stratios on SiSi. One is fully T2 and the other is fully deadspace/faction except for turrets which are T2 w/T2 and Dark Blood crystals. Let's not discuss how much time and effort it took to scour the entire known galaxy looking for deadspace modules with still-active sell orders tucked away in remote uninteresting corners of the galaxy - especially this long after a mirror. Let's just talk about the performance instead.

When you spend five billion ISK on a super-ultra-shiny Stratios.. yeah, it's pretty impressive.

That reminds me, actually - CCP, can we please get some faction DDAs? My Paladin has Dark Blood heatsinks, my Vargur has Republic Fleet gyros but my Shinios only has DDA IIs. Actual drone pilots everywhere (I'm not a drone pilot, but I play one on SiSi) would probably rejoice and forgive you for changing the NPC AI (even though it was a good change).

With regards to having three turrets instead of four and giving the lasers a damage bonus to compensate.. I actually fly my Stratios with three lasers. It got tiresome having to switch out the cloak every time I wanted to kill things and then put it back when I was done.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#2725 - 2013-11-17 21:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Scuzzy Logic
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'm curious as to how the pricing structure for these ships came about. Currently there is only 1 location you can buy these ships for LP at the cheaper price and it is smack bang in the middle of goon space.

There was a rumour of 2 more agents being added but as they are not mentioned in the upcoming patch notes thought I'd ask.


Those mission agents will also be smack-dang in the middle of The Sanctuary, which is nestled nicely in Goon space. Not biased at all. No, really!

Southeast gets the shaft (AGAIN) with Thukkers kind of sucking rewards-wise due to being both high and nullsec.
sabastyian
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#2726 - 2013-11-18 04:11:24 UTC
Naxirian wrote:
So..... been fiddling around with setups.... I can't believe how overpowered these ships are for PvP purposes. You can get a Stratios to 700-800 dps with 50k EHP *and* a covert ops cloak. I believe we just witnessed the death of all the other PvP cruisers. There's simply no reason to use them, ever, if you can get hold of one of these. They're superior in combat *and* they can cloak. The Stratios needs seriously looking at. Even the Astero can do 150 dps and have just under 10k EHP, with a covert ops cloak. That's just ridiculously OP.

Given the SoE's peaceful intentions they should remove the ability to fit warp disruptors/scramblers to them or something, to prevent them from being used as solo-wtf-fu-pwnmobiles in PvP, but still capable of defending themselves. Right now they're basically mediocre exploration ships (the Stratios doesn't have a particularly impressive active tank, which is required for sites like the Angel Minor Annex), with *incredible* PvP abilities. Which is wrong.

They could have used an active tank bonus instead of a buffer tank bonus. I don't understand why they got a buffer bonus for a ship intended for PvE and exploration. Surely an active tank rep amount bonus would have been more beneficial for it's intended role. Instead it has a resist bonus, turning it into a monster buffer tank for a cruiser sized ship. It's essentially a gank Thorax with almost double the EHP and a cloaking device.


I ran some angel site, went heavy tank ( wasn't a ded, combat site ) and, my perfect skilled gardes and ogres were having trouble killing a bs, so were my bouncers and berserker's. I got triple webbed, pointed...and pretty much blap'd.... it can tank, as long as it isnt webbed, second it gets webbed, it dies to like 6 npc bs....
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#2727 - 2013-11-18 08:35:08 UTC
sabastyian wrote:
I ran some angel site, went heavy tank ( wasn't a ded, combat site ) and, my perfect skilled gardes and ogres were having trouble killing a bs, so were my bouncers and berserker's. I got triple webbed, pointed...and pretty much blap'd.... it can tank, as long as it isnt webbed, second it gets webbed, it dies to like 6 npc bs....


Can you do all of us a favor for the sake of scientific accuracy? Pick another pirate cruiser - any other pirate cruiser (though armor-tanked is better for consistency) and run it through the same type of Angel site (or a comparable one, but make sure it's Angels) and get webbed. See if that cruiser, while webbed, holds up to six NPC BS raining death on you any better than the Stratios did.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2728 - 2013-11-18 09:27:10 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Naxirian wrote:

-snip-
That's just ridiculously OP.
-snip-


A 1000dps Vigilant with a 90% web is totally fine, a 800dps very very large Angel frigate (Cynabel) is fine and the Gila with 900dps is fine.
How is a 700dps cloaky Maller op?

There are only three things wrong with the Stratios, some values on the hull and a typo with the drone bandwidth:

Stratios with level V fitting skills has
- 2432hp shield <- ?
- 3000hp armor
- 3042hp hull <- ?
- 100mbit drone bandwidth <- you meant 125mbit of course Blink

Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1920 (-30) / 2400 / 2480 (+30) <- there you go

Now if we would drop one turret slot (makes 3 instead of 4) and give it a 5 or 7.5% damage bonus to lasers, all will be fine.
(That frees up one high that can be fitted with something you like)



first.. Cynabal does nto reach 800 dps with proper ammunition and fittings. with 3 damage mods you will be a bit over 600 dps. And its no where as fast or agile as a frigate. Its faster than other cruisers, but stop exagerating.


Second, warping cloak is second most powerful capability any ship can have in game, just after jump bridges.

Did you ever stopped to check how many rapiers and arazus dies around eve comapred to hacs? Know why? because of the cloak, at least doubles their survivability.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2729 - 2013-11-18 16:41:07 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

first.. Cynabal does nto reach 800 dps with proper ammunition and fittings. with 3 damage mods you will be a bit over 600 dps. And its no where as fast or agile as a frigate. Its faster than other cruisers, but stop exagerating.


Second, warping cloak is second most powerful capability any ship can have in game, just after jump bridges.

Did you ever stopped to check how many rapiers and arazus dies around eve comapred to hacs? Know why? because of the cloak, at least doubles their survivability.


Well if the Gila would have at least enough cpu to put something of value on her highslots, you could put an improved cloak on.
She cant warp cloaked but sit there forever and wait for pray.

And remember as soon as you uncloak the Stratios, you have to wait a little before you can put a target lock on to anything.

If your target happends to be a HAC or cruiser, you may be out of luck since those can simply warp away, while you wait for your 'sensors to calibrate'.
The local might even give away your presents, even thou nobody can see you.

And let's be clear on one thing, you have to sit on your targets windshield, preferably scrammed and webbed him and your drones out and orbiting your target perfectly or this magically 700-800dps is all but fiction or you are shooting a space wall.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
DeAira
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2730 - 2013-11-18 16:53:33 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
[quote=Kagura Nikon]
The local might even give away your presents, even thou nobody can see you.


Even Santa's?! Now that's just going too far!

#justice4VileRat
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2731 - 2013-11-18 17:15:24 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

And remember as soon as you uncloak the Stratios, you have to wait a little before you can put a target lock on to anything.
...
And let's be clear on one thing, you have to sit on your targets windshield, preferably scrammed and webbed him and your drones out and orbiting your target perfectly or this magically 700-800dps is all but fiction or you are shooting a space wall.

Extremely expensive (CCP favoring Goons) for what it has to offer. It can't warp cloaked all the way nor it can target lock without delay. Small cargohold, not enough cap for anything, half-bonused turrets, split damage and heavily nerfed before release.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#2732 - 2013-11-18 17:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
elitatwo wrote:

And remember as soon as you uncloak the Stratios, you have to wait a little before you can put a target lock on to anything.
...
And let's be clear on one thing, you have to sit on your targets windshield, preferably scrammed and webbed him and your drones out and orbiting your target perfectly or this magically 700-800dps is all but fiction or you are shooting a space wall.

Extremely expensive (CCP favoring Goons) for what it has to offer. It can't warp cloaked all the way nor it can target lock without delay. Small cargohold, not enough cap for anything, half-bonused turrets, split damage and heavily nerfed before release.


While you make a couple of good points, you also make one really bad tinfoil point and a few questionable points that can be answered by saying "It's not T2". As for the nerfing before release, I'm not sure if removing one heavy drone/sentry counts as "heavily nerfed" when it did see another bonus doubled and the laser bonus converted to something more useful.
hujciwdupe22
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2733 - 2013-11-18 17:25:27 UTC
pretty useless ship.

with pretty i mean pretty
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2734 - 2013-11-18 17:47:57 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

-snip-
While you make a couple of good points, you also make one really bad tinfoil point and a few questionable points that can be answered by saying "It's not T2". -snip-


Sad What do you mean?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Alice Loreley
Citadel Technologies Unit
#2735 - 2013-11-18 17:49:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Loreley
The main question is always - How much?

You try to create something more powerful than covert-ops, but cheaper than T3. Well. nice try. Not sure about average player will be ready to pay for ship not capable to defend itself. Maybe some additional warp strength is needed? Or maybe even nullifier? Common, it's so easy, you've already done a most ridiculous turn - you gave a nullifier to a ship not in need for this thing at all! Interceptor is the only ship in EVE able to leave the interdiction bubble in a couple of seconds. Extremely fast. Nevermind.
In the same time - where is the magic unit inside this little bird big enough to contain a T3 subsystem?! LORE? Science fiction? Mechanic? Forget, time for space elves and interstellar magic!

Anyway that was really close to a scientific vessel, wanted for a long time . .

EVE Online: Black Hole. Coming really soon.

And... Oh, yeah, small secret - Drifters are Talocan.
Inagua
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2736 - 2013-11-18 20:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Inagua
Please remove thats f-u-c-k-i-n-g drones out absolutely, an theys "magic" 700-800DPS
Leave guns or missiles[recomended Minmatar or caldari] only with possible gain all type damage 500DPS, and all was happy
Remove ability fit scramble and disruption module
Bonus +2 warp strengh are welcome

Not overpowered and not compatible for PvP, WTF WHY CAN'T DO THAT?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TwistedTwistedTwisted
theDisto
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2737 - 2013-11-18 21:25:46 UTC
As you previously made a change to all Covops Cloaking ships to be able to mount Covops cynos, is it intended behaviour that these are unable to fit them?
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#2738 - 2013-11-18 21:40:52 UTC
Stratios puts bullet resistant vest on and proceeds to shoot itself in the head.


Might be fun to drop on someone in a blops op. But for exploration? I remember when they banned t3's from 4/10's. Guess they forgot why they did it.
Esil Da
Doomheim
#2739 - 2013-11-18 22:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Esil Da
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Stratios puts bullet resistant vest on and proceeds to shoot itself in the head.


Might be fun to drop on someone in a blops op. But for exploration? I remember when they banned t3's from 4/10's. Guess they forgot why they did it.



Quote:
CCP thinking, a lot of players are wasting time means less to earn, they more buy PLEX'es will be higher profits, with that thinking they: minimizing chances of finding, reduce loot value, creating problems in the exploration(same like not access with t3 4/10 DED).


Quote:
Patri Andari wrote:
Elias Darrowphayne wrote:
Why no missile love?

It would seem that the cruiser is very much like the Arbitrator but better although i find it very disappointing that there is no missile hard points.

Is there any possibility that we could get even one of the high powered slots for missiles? Even just one turrent converted to missle would make me happy and go a long way to making missile users happy.

Any luck?


Keep up with current events M8

Rise and the rest of the CCP boys hate missiles. Seems they are doing all the can to rid the game of 'em.



They do this because they want, these ships link to PVP and piracy, because as far as the comment I saw, all increasingly focuses on the pirate and PVP'ers desires, than in PvE players desires(more destroyed expensive ships,modules,implants&loot-more ISK out from the game-more players buy the Plex'es(and Plexes is already cash, "it's just business nothing personal". For that reason all focus is to PVP not to PVE)).
And in general, gunnary is most to PVP than PVE.




Always all is for cash
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2740 - 2013-11-19 01:18:28 UTC
theDisto wrote:
As you previously made a change to all Covops Cloaking ships to be able to mount Covops cynos, is it intended behaviour that these are unable to fit them?


Yes

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever