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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#1281 - 2013-11-13 05:42:29 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:


You warp around and hope the other guy is an idiot. Got it. Fool proof plan.


Once again demstrateing to lvl of competance in todays players. Shocked

It is about trying to force an engagement on YOUR terms not theirs duh! If you can't figure this out then I suggest you just follow your Fc and press F1 when he tell you ok.

What I want to know is when do we get a missle Naga that can fit rapid heavys!!!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1282 - 2013-11-13 06:06:28 UTC
CCP Rise,

I have to say I'm very disappointed in how you have handled this.

Sure, you may be correct that this new idea for how the Rapid Missile Launchers might work. Or it might not. But you came at the very end of a development cycle, with this new idea. Not something that has been talked about before, and not a Minor change. The feedback you got in the thread was mostly negative. Almost no one likes this idea in it's current form. Some outright hate it, some want changes, but almost no one wants what you posted in your first post to be the final version.

So what do you do? You say almost nothing. You've made what, 3, 4 posts in this thread ? Most to defend yourself, and to just blow off anyone who disagrees with you. You ignore all the well thought out posts, and instead use your few responses to call out the few who made a few cheap shots. And at the end of all that you just say to everyone too bad, you're doing it anyway, regardless of what they think.

Whatever you implement is going to be half assed. It will have had minimal player testing at best. You have ignored almost all feedback in this thread from people both against it, or wanting to make it better.

So what was the point ? If you really want to do this save it for Rubicon 1.1, or something. Rather than forcing a change that is mostly hated, and rushed, down all of our throats.



As for my own opinion on what is proposed..

You are making a drastic and rushed changed to what is really the only viable missile system left for solo/small gang PVP. Are they a little OP.. I don't think so, but if they are it's because they are the best fitting weapon system on those hulls.. Minor changed to PG, CPU, or even the modifiers on the Launchers and perhaps the missiles themselves would have brought them into perfect balance. But that's not an option apparently, you want to make a weapon system that takes away all of the best parts of using missiles, and combine it in a system that makes it so it is ONLY Viable in Blob warfare.

So much for this being the update to buff Small Gang PVP.
Volstruis
Mise en Abyme
The Ancients.
#1283 - 2013-11-13 06:35:37 UTC
ISD Cura Ursus wrote:
Removed one post that went over the line for civilized discourse. (I will be reading more on this thread to make sure it does not go there again.)

Many many many of the posts seem to be attacking the person rather than the idea.

Please be civil and keep me from getting out my ginsu knives to slice and dice this thread.


Ludicrous argument and it won't stand.

We are challenging a game designer who is making several bad decisions in a number of proposals and will continue to do so. I agree though that all argument should be directed at the output of his work. That's what this thread is about.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1284 - 2013-11-13 06:39:16 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:


You warp around and hope the other guy is an idiot. Got it. Fool proof plan.


Once again demstrateing to lvl of competance in todays players. Shocked

It is about trying to force an engagement on YOUR terms not theirs duh! If you can't figure this out then I suggest you just follow your Fc and press F1 when he tell you ok.

What I want to know is when do we get a missle Naga that can fit rapid heavys!!!


To summarize:

1) AB frigs are THE counter to MWD cruisers.

2) Why? Because you can warp around and hope they are stupid.

3) Not understanding this indicates that someone is incompetent.

Got it. Thanks.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1285 - 2013-11-13 06:44:22 UTC
I still think this change stinks, more for the way they handled it than anything else.

To introduce a new point to the discussion: most ppl here compare new and old rlml in the 50+40 timespan, what if we compare them in a fight that last longer than that? Lets say something between 90s and 140s (50+40+50) where the new rlml catch up with the old one? I think it's a fair question.

Said that we still have the switching ammo problem, and to address this I would like to see a change int the system, when reloading the time stays the same as in the weapon description, but when switching ammo it only takes 10 seconds and the weapon ammo it's switched to the new one but loading the same n of charges that there was before
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#1286 - 2013-11-13 06:45:47 UTC
Urkhan Law wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
peaking of me being wrong, CCP has revised the stabber, >>> rifter <<< and asbs after release.

That means that In 1 year they will change the 40 sec reload timer to 39 and gives +1 missile to the launchers? Big smile
Sorry couldn't resist, I really shouldn't post, no experience with RMLs what so ever.
And Rise, you already set your mind and will go forward because the HUGE negative feedback you got in a MMO forum is disorganized? Really?

OBS: Changes are good, they keep the game moving, but you guys are doing so many of them, and so fast, that you should drop the line "if it's not ok will fix it later", because honestly, you don't have time, and you really should try to *make time for it*.


To be clear. This thread has alot of negative feed back primarly by 3 - 4 posting characters. They in fact populate every page in this topic. If you include the characters they directly interact with. Then I'd say the negative feed back is being pushed by the narative of 3 main oponents and 5 - 7 supporters of thiers.

The community of EVE - Online are not represented in this thread and I'd also suggest that the majority of the solo community are not represented and tend not to post on the forums anyways; are also not widely represented here. Though I suspect many of them would not like this change.

Anyway.

40 seconds is not going to be fun. However, I do believe in fleets these will become nasty. I'm just not sure how far the new rapid light missiles will scale. Seems like a weapon that would find little use in larger scale engagements. Also, this change will most likely move me from Caldari missile ships towards Minmatar ones. Atleast Minmatar missile ships will still be doing atleast 80 damage per second (drones) while waiting for a reload. So, Loki, Bellicose, Scythe Fleet Issue and only use Cerberus, Caracal Navy or Caracal for some scaled engagements (3 - 5 pilot fleets).

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1287 - 2013-11-13 07:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
I don't see much use of overheating with these new SRLML (S stands for sh1tty, not swarm) but perhaps it's because I don't understand. You want your target to die faster of course but how many times it will be worthy to damage mods just to reload sooner?
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#1288 - 2013-11-13 07:03:03 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Disclaimer: I am however greatly reasssurred in my support of this idea by being on the same side of it as some players whom I hugely respect, such as eg: Prometheus Exenthal.

Snippy comments about me losing voters because I don't agree with your views will have even less effect on me than they will on Mynnna, since first I refused to alter a single one of my views to get votes in the first place and second I have no intention of running for CSM again. Not to mention that I'm the sort of person who reacts to being pressured by doubling down.

So thanks for motivating my to do my duty and follow my conscience with even greater fervour than before.

EVE thanks you for this support.




Prometheus Exenthal has been a plague for the past 2 years now. P much only respect he gets is from those who don't know any better and old bros of his. As a pilot he was always meh and his only real talent was his THEORY CRAFTING ability that has also been fail for the past 2 years.

I'm sure he is helping in the demise of this game one way or the other. Still, pre - 2011 Prom did inspire many in this game.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#1289 - 2013-11-13 07:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Sentinel Smith wrote:
CCP Rise,

I have to say I'm very disappointed in how you have handled this.

As for my own opinion on what is proposed..

You are making a drastic and rushed changed to what is really the only viable missile system left for solo/small gang PVP. Are they a little OP.. I don't think so, but if they are it's because they are the best fitting weapon system on those hulls.. Minor changed to PG, CPU, or even the modifiers on the Launchers and perhaps the missiles themselves would have brought them into perfect balance. But that's not an option apparently, you want to make a weapon system that takes away all of the best parts of using missiles, and combine it in a system that makes it so it is ONLY Viable in Blob warfare.

So much for this being the update to buff Small Gang PVP.


Hmm...

Well. I've been known to make silly statements in the past and still do for the purpose of fu*cking with CCP. You know, when they introduce or change something I don't agree with.

However, Truth be told. Even changes that have negatively impacted a ship and setup I use solo has never TRULY impacted where it matters. Combat logs are still filled with kills and so are killboards. This is the same for most solo pilots I'm aware of. Solo pilots adapt fairly quickly and move on. Still, the drama surrounding this thread is entertaining though Roll

Anyway.

There is something I know that will hurt "small gang" PVP. Removing off grid strategic cruisers providing bonuses to ships on another grid. That WILL hurt plenty of pilots who abuse said mechanics and will bring down the total number of kills of MANY PILOTS if not force them to use scouting (cov op), cloaky, or falcon alts. I also know that there are pilots attempting to put together a "Safe" on grid "boosting" option now. To counter possible changes to said mechanics. I say good luck to them. I cannot complain if they're able to accomplish it.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Maxemus Payne
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION
#1290 - 2013-11-13 07:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Maxemus Payne
Just some minor commentary here...

1. I don't know the last time I won a 1v1 BS fight in under 50 seconds.
2. I don't know the last time I brought a 3x BCU II Cerberus to a fight and outran anything... ever. For example: A Cerberus at 1376 m/s vs a Thorax... at 2028 m/s is just disgusting.
3. 40 seconds? Makes me want to puke. Who thought of that?
4. The ammo change issue- how does that stop them from stopping mid fight and just changing ammo to a different kind to continue to deliver the higher dps and avoid the 40 second(forever) timer?
5. Rebalance missiles or the ship bonuses
Why would you want to take the ONE THING that the Caldari have going for it in terms of PVP away from them?
6. Fit a RLML Cerberus... then fit a HAM Cerberus and a HVM Cerberus... What issues arise?

DO this:
Speed up the Drake to make it able to kite or at least catch another BC hull. A HAM Drake can't deliver dmg if it can't catch anything. HVM Drake can't keep anything on field or deliver enough dps to win a fight. Seriously 1003 m/s?

Give the Caracal hulls more fitting space so it can actually fit the weapon systems on them(1 LSE II on a HAM Caracal? GTFO.)

Keep RLMLs intact or make other weapon systems viable. Going from 1 usable weapon to 0 is not a choice. With the introduction you could take them from 2 to 0.
For the record- HAMs and HVMs are NOT alternatives to RLMLs... they're not used for the same things and if you think they are you're doing something wrong.


Shifting around these launchers covering up what is a serious issue with the missile systems.



Sorry for the tangents but I have a great distaste for the way that Eve's PVP is being herded towards blobs and away from solo/small gang... Stop tailoring the game for the major alliances and make it for the base Eve population. Everything else will work itself out.
Yankunytjatjara
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1291 - 2013-11-13 07:33:03 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'm not sure where the idea comes from that this plan came out of thin air in a few days has come from. Yes, it's late in the release cycle, but we spent weeks talking about how to deal with this problem and went through multiple review processes before anything showed up here, just like we do with all changes.

I also assure you that I am not ignoring negative feedback. There are absolutely a lot of people giving that in this thread. In the past when I've gotten negative feedback which is backed with well articulated arguments I don't hesitate to make changes (see industrial rebalance, electronic attack frig rebalance, battleship rebalance), but in this thread the majority of complaint is very disorganized and unhelpful, that's why I'm instead going with the positive feedback coming from the CSM, from our testing and from some posters here.



Just use the good old HTFU

The change is good

My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1292 - 2013-11-13 07:45:09 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
so... despite various bits of better judgement i've come back here and decided to crunch some numbers.

after all, what's a good shitstorm of whine to go through without someone beating a drum in the name of sanity at "this isn't actually that bad! and actually kind of awesome!"

so, i recall people a wee while back banging on the drum saying that the new rapid light missile launchers can only deal 20450 damage over the course of its 50 seconds or so of firing and that this would be useless as you couldn't kill your targets before they destroyed you and you reloaded.

so this got me thinking... what kind of fire power DO rapid light missile launchers do right now in the same timeframe?

using my majestic and wonderful powers of "turning on EFT" i replicated CCP rise's example caracal using rapid light launchers and 3 BCU's, T2 fury scourge missiles and turned all the skills to V. lets have a look and see how badly OMGWTFNERFEDANDRUINED these launchers are going to be after all.

so, at the current moment using the numbers available sans drones this caracal does 257 dps.

JAHA! you might say, 257x2 is more than 409! CLEARLY THIS IS A COMPLETE NERF AND EVERYTHING IS RUINED!

well... that's the thing... is it really?

I decided to grab out ye olde windows calculator and actually had a go at doing the most terrible of all crimes and plugging in the dps both versions of the weapon will do over 90 seconds. that is, to be specific, the 50 seconds of firing followed by the 40 seconds of reloading.

old rapid light missile launcher DPS without drones = 257

50 seconds at 257 dps = 12850 damage

50 seconds + 40 seconds ( reload) damage = 23130 damage

new rapid light missile launcher dps without drones: 409

50 seconds at 409 dps = 20450 damage

50 seconds + 40 seconds (reload) damage = 20450 damage (duh)

so the resounding earth shattering ruining of all that is holy difference which makes these new weapons completely worthless is!..

2680

well... sod... that's it? that's the number which is causing all this screaming and bawling? no wonder CCP rise is being dismissive of our entirely well justified complaints makes through reasoned argument and no superfluous use of the capslock!

why with 2680 dps we could kill a whole extra venture! a badly fitted one certainly!

so, what possible advantage does this change give the frothing bag of indignant rage also known as the RLML caracal user?

one of the interesting concepts within eve is the constant dance of gank vs tank. I'm sure some of you can understand the concept of the pros and cons of running a dps heavy fit with weak tank and a dps light fit with a heavy one?

the first ship is dealing a lot of damage, but also taking a lot so he has to hope that he does enough damage to survive.

the second ship is dealing a little damage, but he's got a massive tank so is attempting to outlast his opponent.

the interesting thing about these launchers is that it gives us this situation in a round about way.

consider, lets say the RLML caracal is fighting 3 targets. for the sake of ease of thought we'll assume that the combat plays out exactly the same way with both the old and new RLML caracals dealing 100% of their possible damage against 100% of hitpoints (its flawed but we are just doing a thought experiment here) and, in return, our 3 targets are dealing 150 dps each back. why? because reasons.

as a bit of an arse pull number lets say that between the frigates they have 21.7k hit points to play with, equally split. now clearly! the new rapid light missile caracal is completely doomed! he can't deal enough damage to defeat his foes in a single reload and he'll just die with empty launchers! but... will he?

to be frank? no... why? because burst damage has certain distinct advantages over prolonged duration damage and understanding this is important to making a decision on these weapons. so for this example i'm assuming everything is 100% applied

now hold on connall! this is absurd? you're assuming 100% damage application and arglFLAR-

yes, i am. but i am a fair fellow so lets flip it around, how much damage would a current RLML caracal deal in the same timeframe? as we know from above the answer 12850.

so, with this little thought experiment we are dealing 12850/21700 damage to these suspiciously identical targets.

each "target" has 7300 hitpoints each.

1:7300/7300
2:7300/7300
3:7300/7300

so lets apply our current caracal to the various targets over 50 seconds and mark the points at which the dps will suceed in killing them.

1:0/7300 - 28.4 sec - 150dps
2:1750/7300 - not dead yet
3:7300/7300 - not dead yet

huzzah! one foe vanquished and another on the way! enemy dps has been reduced by 150 meaning that the caracal is now taking 300 incoming dps for another 6.84 seconds before having that dps go down to 150.

now, how about the same situation with the "new" RLML's?

1:0/7300 - 17.84 sec - 150 dps
2:0/7300 - 35.69 sec - 150 dps
3:1450/7300 - not dead yet

huh... well that's not too shabby now is it?

THIS is the advantage of the new system: burst dps.

remember firepower goes both ways both you shooting at them and them shooting at you. there is very much an advantage to dumping out a similar amount of damage in a shorter time frame as, if fighting multiple smaller targets LIKE THIS WEAPONS ARE INTENDED TO the faster you remove opponents from the field the less time they have to apply dps in return to you. yes, you are going to be "offline" for 40 seconds, but you have killed more of the enemy permitting them less time to deal damage to YOU. is

yes, i'm aware i'm being a little patronizing and YES i'm aware this is all "ideal situation" stuff, but the basic concept of burst damage vs prolonged needed some damn explaining and a thought experiment seemed the best way to explain it. ^_^

Nice post. Thanks.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#1293 - 2013-11-13 07:51:50 UTC
Was playing around with the rlml on a cerberus against a rocket fitted t2 vengeance. every time it was close to structure the cerb needed to reload. That should not happen, that a hac can't beat an AF.

Same test with raven vs said cerberus. Without overheat raven couldn't kill cerb.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#1294 - 2013-11-13 08:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
Brib Vogt wrote:
Was playing around with the rlml on a cerberus against a rocket fitted t2 vengeance. every time it was close to structure the cerb needed to reload. That should not happen, that a hac can't beat an AF.

Same test with raven vs said cerberus. Without overheat raven couldn't kill cerb.


Without the fitting of said ship and a clear battle report of how this was tested these type of arguments are exactly what Rise was referring to as basically crap arguments against the changes.

Now if you want to get them to take you seriously then post up what fits your were using, what characters/skills etc and actually quote figure from a combat log that you can send to Rise to back up your findings. Do this and i can guarantee a much better chance at getting CCP to listen to you. Otherwise you are just whining that your favorite toy is different and you don't like it.

If Rise and co got a load of these reports from multiple sources with realistic fittings etc showing an issue across a number of scenarios then they would take notice. One scrub (or alts of said scrub) constantly bleating 'don't mess with my stuff!' don't sway anyone in a decent argument.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1295 - 2013-11-13 08:12:39 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
Rapid launchers were not good for pve before these changes, so it is not different after.

Apparently you've never been in a C1 wormhole. Several of the sites are very frigate heavy, with only a few cruisers. RLMLs excelled in these sites and were notably better than HAMs or HMLs.

Or, if you run two characters in some missions or sites, it was useful to have one using RLMLs against frigs and the other using HAMs against cruisers and bigger. To be fair, this might still work; I'll need to do some more testing.

RLMLs had a niche in PvE in which they were better than HAMs or HMLs. They weren't "always the right choice" as CCP seems to think. They were something you could choose to use based on what you'd be fighting, and it could definitely pay off if you made the right choice. Changing RLMLs this way removes that interesting choice, because I don't think they'll ever be the right choice.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1296 - 2013-11-13 08:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
I wish CCP Rise kindly makes another cool PvP video - Solo Commentary 21 - proving naysayers wrong and showing how awesome this new mechanic is when in good hands. Luckily he's still playing and using Caracals, now if only he could find time...
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1297 - 2013-11-13 08:18:33 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Agreed that is a disadvantage, and it's a really difficult one to mitigate within the parameters of this change. It's a pity EVE weapons work so simplistically (Why can't I load my launchers with 10 EM missiles then 8 explosives?) but there it is. On the other hand as mentioned previously, this change does give you options like splitting your launchers into two groups with different missile types loaded, and still getting "like now" DPS with your first group whilst reloading your second.


People keep saying that. Its not true. You dont get DPS similar to now by splitting weapons.


agreed i sad that already ...but nobody noticed .

you dont only have not the same dps like now on top of that you loose the dps from not firing the half of your launchers in the first cycle....
its just makebelieve to calm down the crowd.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1298 - 2013-11-13 08:41:18 UTC
not worth

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1299 - 2013-11-13 08:50:35 UTC
Maxemus Payne wrote:

2. I don't know the last time I brought a 3x BCU II Cerberus to a fight and outran anything... ever. For example: A Cerberus at 1376 m/s vs a Thorax... at 2028 m/s is just disgusting. .


Er, try not plating and trimarking your Cerberus. P
Mr Gojira
Overview Dynamics Inc
#1300 - 2013-11-13 09:19:35 UTC
Maxemus Payne wrote:
Just some minor commentary here...

1. I don't know the last time I won a 1v1 BS fight in under 50 seconds.



So what part of Rapid missile launchers being for attacking smaller ships than yours are you not comprehending? And most of the people in this thread for that matter? An a Caracal is a kiting ship tank is low on kiting ships...