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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

First post First post First post
Author
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1261 - 2013-11-13 02:22:13 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
650+ DPS RLML-Tengu is going to be absolutely brutal. Caracals, nom-nom.
Can I at least laugh about the CN Rapid Light Missile Launchers selling for $100-million apiece @ Jita? Lol



And people thought the Tengu was OP before, just wait til that hits the street and you've got 100% application to anything other than interceptors.


It dies to the same things that have always killed tengus, which is falcon, rapier, scimitar, pick 2.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1262 - 2013-11-13 02:22:32 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
All other factors are not equal. 40s is a loooong time to allow shields to regen and allow the new system caracals to apply dps. They lose 2 caracals before reload, but the 3rd caracal on each side dies at about the same time, and the 4th old caracal lives until 2nd reload. I think the old caracals will win.

This is assuming they just sit there and shoot each other. If people are dodging point and warping out, the new system caracals get absolutely shafted by wasted volleys.

As of today, the old Caracals no longer exist.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#1263 - 2013-11-13 02:23:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
I'll try and make this brief. RLML Cerb pilot here with ~7mill SP in missiles on my main...


1. The idea of having the *ability* to dump more dps and then deal with a long reload time is very attractive but *situational*. It should not be the only option. Regular (slow, minimal fitting req ie frig), Rapid (higher fitting req ie Cruiser but better sustained dps) and Assault (rapid dump of dps, long reload high skill/fitting requirements ie only HAC can fit) as a model for light missiles is very attractive, imho. But moving all cruisers into only an "Assault" style of play with a long cool down is problematic.

2. The skilled management of cool downs is the hallmark of a good player. To have to do this with your only dps source (drones hardly count with Cerb/Caracal) should be a *situational* choice not default. It is not fun to have to end the engagement when you cannot shoot for 40 secs as your only option or die.

3. The comparison to ASB is not a good one as the ship is not entirely without defense when it is reloading charges. To be entirely without offense is another thing entirely.

4. PvE for newblings will be *very painful* with this change. Eve has more than enough of that already. The light tank of a Caracal is rough enough with not being able to whittle down incoming ships for 40 seconds while you take damage during a long reload.

5. 10 secs reload time is an eternity when you are pressed. Ammo selection? Forget about it forever as you would have to run to reload them come back or face certain loss...not fun. 10 seconds is terrible as it is. All reload times should be cut in half. More Pew Pew and less staring at blinky buttons.

If you are looking to provide more interesting game play give us *options*. Because near as I can tell (and having played many, many games with cooldown abilities to provide more interesting game play) you are locking us into an overall *nerf* of existing game play and making the missile class far more *narrow* in what it can do.

We welcome making missile boats more "ganky" at the expense of long reload times as a *situational variation* in our game play but I for one reject it as the only option for my Cerb.

best
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1264 - 2013-11-13 02:41:29 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Leokokim wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:


As for those stats...meh they would mean nothing if they got the drop on you. 53km+ optimal & 450+ dps mean nothing if you can't hit your target orbiting at 3-5kms. (and at those ranges your nomen./zealot is dead.)



Good luck getting a 0-5k drop on something that can fly over 3k m/s. Quite impossible tbh


Yeah like a cynabal has never been killed by an AB frig before. Duh! have you lot only been playing for a year?!

Hell THE counter to fast mwd cruisers were AB/SCRAM/WEB frigs for years!


An AB/SCRAM/WEB frig counters a MWD Cruiser how?


Oh boy!

Do you really think that what you do on grid affects the fight more than what you do off grid BEFORE you engage?! Hmmm you might need to think on that one a bit I reckon. Lol


Rather than being smug while saying nothing of substance how about you actually explain how an AB using frig tackler is a counter to a MWD using long range cruiser. I don't know what you're doing off grid that magically makes that a good matchup, so please tell me.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1265 - 2013-11-13 02:45:03 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:

Rather than being smug while saying nothing of substance how about you actually explain how an AB using frig tackler is a counter to a MWD using long range cruiser. I don't know what you're doing off grid that magically makes that a good matchup, so please tell me.


He is assuming you ram the ab frigate, and are then like a failfit vaga with a ham instead of medium neut
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#1266 - 2013-11-13 02:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
So, I tried this out in PvE on the test server.

I ran two Perimeter Camp anomalies in a C1 wormhole with no effects. I've been living in this particular wormhole for a year, so I know pretty darn well exactly how to run the anomaly. Several months ago I calculated that an RLML Cerberus (6 RLML IIs in the highs, 4 BCUIIs in the lows, tank in the mids) was basically the fastest way to run this anomaly due to the large number of frigate sleepers compared to cruiser sleepers. Also, don't kill the sentries, they despawn when you warp off after everything else is dead.

Note that ammo switching is irrelevant in this case, so if there's a scenario in which these new launchers should excel without seeing too many faults, this should be it.

I ran the first anomaly with all of the launchers grouped and just waiting out the reload. I ran the second anomaly with the launchers split into two groups, alternating so that I was always shooting. I had to reload once during the first wave, twice during the second wave, and three times during the third wave (compared to reloading once in the entire anomaly currently).

Overall the experience wasn't awful, but it was more frustrating than the current situation and didn't feel very polished. Specific thoughts:

  • In both cases, I felt like I was having to work/think a lot harder in order to get the job done, and having to pay attention to a lot of different things simultaneously. Counting volleys becomes critical, since even one wasted volley represented a hefty percentage of damage lost (6% of an ammo clip). In fact, I was shooting so fast that I'm fairly certain I could lose two volleys on a single target if they were far enough away. Moreover, I had to pay attention not to actually kill my targets with the missiles, since that would result in a lot wasted damage from the volley, and I had to keep my drones out finishing off the targets (and sleepers hate drones, I lost one early on in the first anomaly). This was even worse in the "split launchers for better sustained dps" case.
  • Not having an actual indication of how much time is left on the reload was annoying. Just one more thing I had to keep track of. Every other MMO that has "long-cooldown" abilities shows you the actual or approximate cooldown remaining.
  • In PvE, waiting for the reload was boring and annoying. In PvP there are interesting things you could maybe be doing while the cooldown happens, not so in PvE. Just sit there and wait while watching my drones ping away at targets (and recalling them when they get attacked).
  • Fitting screen DPS doesn't factor in reload time. For most existing weapons this isn't a big deal, but with these new RLMLs it becomes an issue. I can see this being a problem for newer players who might fit RLMLs instead of HAMs or HMLs just because the number on the fitting screen is so much larger.
  • Splitting the weapons for more even sustained dps wasn't worth it. Just gave me more to keep track of, and made things seem to take a lot longer since each volley did less damage.
  • Subjectively, things seem to take a lot longer than they probably do, due to waiting for reloads a lot of the time. It isn't fun, it's boring. I'd believe that objectively, it didn't take more than 20% longer than current, but it certainly felt like a lot longer.


I suspect that for this particular (frigate heavy!) anomaly, HAMs (with a rigor rig) are now at least as fast to finish as RLMLs--and significantly easier to use. It seems to me that it would make sense for RLMLs to be preferred when going into an anomaly that has so many more frigates than cruisers, but with the current design that's not the case. If I'm going to have to pay that much attention and think that hard while running the anomaly, I might as well be using guns and manually taking care of transversal speed while getting much higher dps.

So, at least for my purposes, RIP RLMLs.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1267 - 2013-11-13 02:51:30 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
So, at least for my purposes, RIP RLMLs.

Let us know if you have a chance to try it out with a Tengu running Faction launchers.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Taoist Dragon
SHAVED
#1268 - 2013-11-13 02:56:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:


Oh boy!

Do you really think that what you do on grid affects the fight more than what you do off grid BEFORE you engage?! Hmmm you might need to think on that one a bit I reckon. Lol


Rather than being smug while saying nothing of substance how about you actually explain how an AB using frig tackler is a counter to a MWD using long range cruiser. I don't know what you're doing off grid that magically makes that a good matchup, so please tell me.


Ok here goes.

If you just blindly warp to 0 every time you are going for a tackle you will die to the majority of cruisers if they have any situational awareness about them.

The HARD tackle of AB/Scram/Web frig is not about catching the cruiser once on grid as you wont be able to. The MWD cruiser will generally be faster and with blap you to space dust. It is all about setting up the fight so you start within OH scram range by using the various warp techniques of 'fishing' to either drop right on top of the cruiser or get them to land on you.

A frig will lock and scram a cruiser way long before it can pull range etc in you start at point blank range. It is all about how you SETUP the fight rather than blindly charge head first into it. FW plex are an excellent example of this being put into practice.

Once you are locked down, scrammed and webbed the frig litterally run rings around you and takes you down (all be it rather slowely sometimes) what the RLML on cruisers do is allow you to effectively engage any frig as long at it is in range (27+km or summit) whereas a turret cruiser has to be more careful and setup the fight in his favour because medium sized turrets do jack squat to an tight orbiting frig (even 6-7km orbits) as the angular velocity is too high for them to track it. and in this size orbit a small neut won't reach and if fitte with a medium neut a smal nos on the frig can sort that out. And unless your drones are bonussed a frig will eat them easily while still holding you down.

The reason cruisers CAN be really good at killing frigs is players like Chessur know how to setup the fights in their favour (even though I'll still give him **** about being a boostes, implanted, nano ***) to make sure that a frig doesn't land right on top of them.

These changes allow you to 'front load' rapid damage them have to deal with slow reloads etc. pretty muhc how arti alpha works.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Taoist Dragon
SHAVED
#1269 - 2013-11-13 03:02:37 UTC
Quote:

  • In both cases, I felt like I was having to work/think a lot harder in order to get the job done, and having to pay attention to a lot of different things simultaneously.

  • Oh no! you have to actually think now when using missiles?!?!

    Missiles have always been the 'easy' weapon system to use.

    Are you in range? - check

    Press F1.

    Wait for explosion.

    Now you actually have to think about what you are doing. This is a good thing IMO bring it more in line with turrets.

    That is the Way, the Tao.

    Balance is everything.

    Chris Winter
    Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
    Curatores Veritatis Alliance
    #1270 - 2013-11-13 03:04:11 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Chris Winter wrote:
    So, at least for my purposes, RIP RLMLs.

    Let us know if you have a chance to try it out with a Tengu running Faction launchers.

    Not a worthwhile test for me. I would never put faction launchers on a ship for PvE in a WH, and I intentionally use Cerbs instead of Tengus for this PvE situation due to longer range and lower cost.

    Although, a tengu with overloaded RLMLs in a wolf-rayet could be pretty awesome to slaughter someone with.
    Chris Winter
    Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
    Curatores Veritatis Alliance
    #1271 - 2013-11-13 03:09:56 UTC
    Taoist Dragon wrote:
    Quote:

  • In both cases, I felt like I was having to work/think a lot harder in order to get the job done, and having to pay attention to a lot of different things simultaneously.

  • Oh no! you have to actually think now when using missiles?!?!

    Missiles have always been the 'easy' weapon system to use.

    Are you in range? - check

    Press F1.

    Wait for explosion.

    Now you actually have to think about what you are doing. This is a good thing IMO bring it more in line with turrets.

    You must've missed the part where I said that if I'm going to have to think, I might as well be using turrets and doing more damage. It doesn't bring it in line with turrets, since it doesn't do as much damage as turrets.
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #1272 - 2013-11-13 03:11:00 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Chris Winter wrote:
    So, at least for my purposes, RIP RLMLs.

    Let us know if you have a chance to try it out with a Tengu running Faction launchers.


    I would suggest against this, since the list of things that can now kill your tengu is expanded to "anything that webs you while you are reloading"
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #1273 - 2013-11-13 03:18:35 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    I would suggest against this, since the list of things that can now kill your tengu is expanded to "anything that webs you while you are reloading"

    I thought we were talking about the test server?

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

    Zvaarian the Red
    Evil Leprechaun Brigade
    #1274 - 2013-11-13 03:19:02 UTC
    Taoist Dragon wrote:
    Zvaarian the Red wrote:
    Taoist Dragon wrote:


    Oh boy!

    Do you really think that what you do on grid affects the fight more than what you do off grid BEFORE you engage?! Hmmm you might need to think on that one a bit I reckon. Lol


    Rather than being smug while saying nothing of substance how about you actually explain how an AB using frig tackler is a counter to a MWD using long range cruiser. I don't know what you're doing off grid that magically makes that a good matchup, so please tell me.


    Ok here goes.

    If you just blindly warp to 0 every time you are going for a tackle you will die to the majority of cruisers if they have any situational awareness about them.

    The HARD tackle of AB/Scram/Web frig is not about catching the cruiser once on grid as you wont be able to. The MWD cruiser will generally be faster and with blap you to space dust. It is all about setting up the fight so you start within OH scram range by using the various warp techniques of 'fishing' to either drop right on top of the cruiser or get them to land on you.

    A frig will lock and scram a cruiser way long before it can pull range etc in you start at point blank range. It is all about how you SETUP the fight rather than blindly charge head first into it. FW plex are an excellent example of this being put into practice.

    Once you are locked down, scrammed and webbed the frig litterally run rings around you and takes you down (all be it rather slowely sometimes) what the RLML on cruisers do is allow you to effectively engage any frig as long at it is in range (27+km or summit) whereas a turret cruiser has to be more careful and setup the fight in his favour because medium sized turrets do jack squat to an tight orbiting frig (even 6-7km orbits) as the angular velocity is too high for them to track it. and in this size orbit a small neut won't reach and if fitte with a medium neut a smal nos on the frig can sort that out. And unless your drones are bonussed a frig will eat them easily while still holding you down.

    The reason cruisers CAN be really good at killing frigs is players like Chessur know how to setup the fights in their favour (even though I'll still give him **** about being a boostes, implanted, nano ***) to make sure that a frig doesn't land right on top of them.

    These changes allow you to 'front load' rapid damage them have to deal with slow reloads etc. pretty muhc how arti alpha works.


    You don't explain how you are arriving point blank range versus a MWD cruiser. Seeing as that is the foundation of your argument you might want to explain how on earth you think you can reliably land that close to a kiting cruiser unless it's already tackled.
    Zvaarian the Red
    Evil Leprechaun Brigade
    #1275 - 2013-11-13 03:22:02 UTC
    Chris Winter wrote:
    Taoist Dragon wrote:
    Quote:

  • In both cases, I felt like I was having to work/think a lot harder in order to get the job done, and having to pay attention to a lot of different things simultaneously.

  • Oh no! you have to actually think now when using missiles?!?!

    Missiles have always been the 'easy' weapon system to use.

    Are you in range? - check

    Press F1.

    Wait for explosion.

    Now you actually have to think about what you are doing. This is a good thing IMO bring it more in line with turrets.

    You must've missed the part where I said that if I'm going to have to think, I might as well be using turrets and doing more damage. It doesn't bring it in line with turrets, since it doesn't do as much damage as turrets.


    In PVE turrets require a little bit of maneuvering, not the micromanagement of volleys and cooldown timers. I'm really starting to think you are a troll with the kinds of responses you are littering this thread with.
    Taoist Dragon
    SHAVED
    #1276 - 2013-11-13 03:43:34 UTC
    Zvaarian the Red wrote:


    You don't explain how you are arriving point blank range versus a MWD cruiser. Seeing as that is the foundation of your argument you might want to explain how on earth you think you can reliably land that close to a kiting cruiser unless it's already tackled.


    Oh FFS!

    You warp around the system at different ranges and hope the other guy is a moron so you can land on him and muck up his great plan for being a frig killer.

    It is really that simple. Look at some of the 'old time' pvp blogs. They explain in great detail various techniques used when 'out fishin' in a frigate.

    If you don't understand this then really there is not much I can do to enlighten you.

    Really the playersbase who post nowadays has become such a group of close minded whiners!

    I for one will look forward to working with the new RLML and seeing what they can and can't do both from a target and attacker point of view.

    That is the Way, the Tao.

    Balance is everything.

    Taoist Dragon
    SHAVED
    #1277 - 2013-11-13 03:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
    Zvaarian the Red wrote:
    Chris Winter wrote:
    Taoist Dragon wrote:
    Quote:

  • In both cases, I felt like I was having to work/think a lot harder in order to get the job done, and having to pay attention to a lot of different things simultaneously.

  • Oh no! you have to actually think now when using missiles?!?!

    Missiles have always been the 'easy' weapon system to use.

    Are you in range? - check

    Press F1.

    Wait for explosion.

    Now you actually have to think about what you are doing. This is a good thing IMO bring it more in line with turrets.

    You must've missed the part where I said that if I'm going to have to think, I might as well be using turrets and doing more damage. It doesn't bring it in line with turrets, since it doesn't do as much damage as turrets.


    In PVE turrets require a little bit of maneuvering, not the micromanagement of volleys and cooldown timers. I'm really starting to think you are a troll with the kinds of responses you are littering this thread with.


    The PVE part is irrelivent. Missiles are becomeing more 'complicated' and 'different' than missiles. This is a good thing IMO. Missiles SHOULD required tactical thinking rather than just press F1 and wait for explosion.

    As for Trolling. yeah I do cos it is easy with with majority of whiney neckbeards on these forums nowadays. P

    That is the Way, the Tao.

    Balance is everything.

    Cardano Firesnake
    Fire Bullet Inc
    #1278 - 2013-11-13 03:46:05 UTC
    Rapid launchers were not good for pve before these changes, so it is not different after.


    Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.

    Zvaarian the Red
    Evil Leprechaun Brigade
    #1279 - 2013-11-13 04:24:52 UTC
    Taoist Dragon wrote:
    Zvaarian the Red wrote:


    You don't explain how you are arriving point blank range versus a MWD cruiser. Seeing as that is the foundation of your argument you might want to explain how on earth you think you can reliably land that close to a kiting cruiser unless it's already tackled.


    Oh FFS!

    You warp around the system at different ranges and hope the other guy is a moron so you can land on him and muck up his great plan for being a frig killer.

    It is really that simple. Look at some of the 'old time' pvp blogs. They explain in great detail various techniques used when 'out fishin' in a frigate.

    If you don't understand this then really there is not much I can do to enlighten you.

    Really the playersbase who post nowadays has become such a group of close minded whiners!

    I for one will look forward to working with the new RLML and seeing what they can and can't do both from a target and attacker point of view.


    You warp around and hope the other guy is an idiot. Got it. Fool proof plan.
    Vladimir Norkoff
    Income Redistribution Service
    #1280 - 2013-11-13 05:12:24 UTC
    Zvaarian the Red wrote:
    You warp around and hope the other guy is an idiot. Got it. Fool proof plan.
    What? It's what I always do when there is a kiter harrasing my gang. As designated tackler I immediately warp away from the battle to random celestials waiting for the kiter to be stupid.

    (Note - Nobody invites me to gangs anymore and I am all alone. So terribly alone....)