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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Adwokat Diabla
WeebFleet
Tsundere Triad
#1221 - 2013-11-12 23:44:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Adwokat Diabla
The problem with any rapid light fleet doctrine in a big blob nullsec fleet is that it already does not do enough damage. It is why you see a massive proliferation of things like rail tengus, domis, geddons, navy apocs, muninns. Essentially, things that have guns have much better dps and projection so rapid light based ships are only going to be those designed to kill small, otherwise useless crap that small gangs are so fond of killing.

It does not affect me mind you, but I just don't understand why you would feel this is necessary. I honestly find it confusing.

As a funny side note, they do not even work as anti-bomber things because bombers will already be in warp before the missiles hit.
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1222 - 2013-11-12 23:46:00 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

I also assure you that I am not ignoring negative feedback. There are absolutely a lot of people giving that in this thread. In the past when I've gotten negative feedback which is backed with well articulated arguments I don't hesitate to make changes (see industrial rebalance, electronic attack frig rebalance, battleship rebalance), but in this thread the majority of complaint is very disorganized and unhelpful, that's why I'm instead going with the positive feedback coming from the CSM, from our testing and from some posters here.

"I'm not just ignoring negative feedback but I'm ignoring negative feedback because it's not presented how *I* want it to be."

This is silly and just wordplay on your part. You're intelligent enough to understand why this is a terrible argument.

We all know that you've got your pride wrapped into your project- it's fair enough to do so, but not at the cost of you choosing to ignore the negative feedback in such a juvenile manner.


Based on his purely dismissive responses in this thread I think it's rather obvious you are wasting your time with the whole "you are better than that" approach.

Didn't say he was better than that- he clearly isn't. But he is intelligent enough to know how completely idiotic he is being. I have no hope on that changing his behavior, but damn do I hope he feels bad about having to act so overwhelmingly stupid.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#1223 - 2013-11-12 23:47:54 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
LOL I'm am truely surprised by how many people are so butthurt that they will no longer be able WTFBBPWN frig gangs with a single RLML cruiser....


Aw go cry a river somewhere else. Name another frig killing cruiser that uses turrets that are as effective as RLML ones? There aren't simple as that. Medium sized turrets have majore drawback when attacking small ship classes. The new RLML will still have good damage application to smaller ship but now you will have to think tactically rather than just pushing keep at range and F1.

Adapt or die!

Actually no don't adapt and die lots more Twisted


Yah.... How about, you are wrong.

Nomen, Zealot, Rail diemos, Rail thorax, Rail Exq Navy, Oracle, Cynabal, Omen, Ishtar, Navy Vexor
All of those ships destroy light tackle.


Go away chessur this is a conversation for grown ups.

All of the above ships quoted can be killed by a cookie cutter rifter. (yes even after the 'nerfs') if he has a good warp in.

All you have actually done is reinforced that the RLML caracal will have to flown with similiar tactical thought as other ships than can kill frigs. Currently these ships are good at killing frig because of the tactics needed not because the weapon system is good at killing frigs. After the changes the RLML carcals et all will have to start tactical thinking rather than just plow into that frig gang and press F1 and farm km's.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Adwokat Diabla
WeebFleet
Tsundere Triad
#1224 - 2013-11-12 23:50:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Adwokat Diabla
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
LOL I'm am truely surprised by how many people are so butthurt that they will no longer be able WTFBBPWN frig gangs with a single RLML cruiser....


Aw go cry a river somewhere else. Name another frig killing cruiser that uses turrets that are as effective as RLML ones? There aren't simple as that. Medium sized turrets have majore drawback when attacking small ship classes. The new RLML will still have good damage application to smaller ship but now you will have to think tactically rather than just pushing keep at range and F1.

Adapt or die!

Actually no don't adapt and die lots more Twisted


Yah.... How about, you are wrong.

Nomen, Zealot, Rail diemos, Rail thorax, Rail Exq Navy, Oracle, Cynabal, Omen, Ishtar, Navy Vexor
All of those ships destroy light tackle.


Go away chessur this is a conversation for grown ups.

All of the above ships quoted can be killed by a cookie cutter rifter. (yes even after the 'nerfs') if he has a good warp in.

All you have actually done is reinforced that the RLML caracal will have to flown with similiar tactical thought as other ships than can kill frigs. Currently these ships are good at killing frig because of the tactics needed not because the weapon system is good at killing frigs. After the changes the RLML carcals et all will have to start tactical thinking rather than just plow into that frig gang and press F1 and farm km's.


RLML Caracals lol. Because that affects anything in this game outside of lowsec FW medium plexes.

Also plz, a rifter would not kill any of those, stop trolling
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1225 - 2013-11-12 23:53:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Taoist Dragon wrote:


All of the above ships quoted can be killed by a cookie cutter rifter. (yes even after the 'nerfs') if he has a good warp in..



Er, no

Of all of those ships, the only ones threatened by 1 rifter is the zealot and oracle.

Edit: Seriously, a cookie cutter rifter is going to kill an ishtar or navy vexor? Are you for real?
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#1226 - 2013-11-12 23:54:44 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
LOL I'm am truely surprised by how many people are so butthurt that they will no longer be able WTFBBPWN frig gangs with a single RLML cruiser....


Aw go cry a river somewhere else. Name another frig killing cruiser that uses turrets that are as effective as RLML ones? There aren't simple as that. Medium sized turrets have majore drawback when attacking small ship classes. The new RLML will still have good damage application to smaller ship but now you will have to think tactically rather than just pushing keep at range and F1.

Adapt or die!

Actually no don't adapt and die lots more Twisted


Yah.... How about, you are wrong.

Nomen, Zealot, Rail diemos, Rail thorax, Rail Exq Navy, Oracle, Cynabal, Omen, Ishtar, Navy Vexor
All of those ships destroy light tackle.


Go away chessur this is a conversation for grown ups.

All of the above ships quoted can be killed by a cookie cutter rifter. (yes even after the 'nerfs') if he has a good warp in.

All you have actually done is reinforced that the RLML caracal will have to flown with similiar tactical thought as other ships than can kill frigs. Currently these ships are good at killing frig because of the tactics needed not because the weapon system is good at killing frigs. After the changes the RLML carcals et all will have to start tactical thinking rather than just plow into that frig gang and press F1 and farm km's.


this guy for real?

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC
Gorski Car
#1227 - 2013-11-12 23:56:37 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
LOL I'm am truely surprised by how many people are so butthurt that they will no longer be able WTFBBPWN frig gangs with a single RLML cruiser....


Aw go cry a river somewhere else. Name another frig killing cruiser that uses turrets that are as effective as RLML ones? There aren't simple as that. Medium sized turrets have majore drawback when attacking small ship classes. The new RLML will still have good damage application to smaller ship but now you will have to think tactically rather than just pushing keep at range and F1.

Adapt or die!

Actually no don't adapt and die lots more Twisted


Yah.... How about, you are wrong.

Nomen, Zealot, Rail diemos, Rail thorax, Rail Exq Navy, Oracle, Cynabal, Omen, Ishtar, Navy Vexor
All of those ships destroy light tackle.


Go away chessur this is a conversation for grown ups.

All of the above ships quoted can be killed by a cookie cutter rifter. (yes even after the 'nerfs') if he has a good warp in.

All you have actually done is reinforced that the RLML caracal will have to flown with similiar tactical thought as other ships than can kill frigs. Currently these ships are good at killing frig because of the tactics needed not because the weapon system is good at killing frigs. After the changes the RLML carcals et all will have to start tactical thinking rather than just plow into that frig gang and press F1 and farm km's.


Are you serious?

Collect this post
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1228 - 2013-11-12 23:58:54 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:

Go away chessur this is a conversation for grown ups.


That sentence negates itself.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#1229 - 2013-11-13 00:04:48 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
LOL I'm am truely surprised by how many people are so butthurt that they will no longer be able WTFBBPWN frig gangs with a single RLML cruiser....


Aw go cry a river somewhere else. Name another frig killing cruiser that uses turrets that are as effective as RLML ones? There aren't simple as that. Medium sized turrets have majore drawback when attacking small ship classes. The new RLML will still have good damage application to smaller ship but now you will have to think tactically rather than just pushing keep at range and F1.

Adapt or die!

Actually no don't adapt and die lots more Twisted


Yah.... How about, you are wrong.

Nomen, Zealot, Rail diemos, Rail thorax, Rail Exq Navy, Oracle, Cynabal, Omen, Ishtar, Navy Vexor
All of those ships destroy light tackle.


Go away chessur this is a conversation for grown ups.

All of the above ships quoted can be killed by a cookie cutter rifter. (yes even after the 'nerfs') if he has a good warp in.

All you have actually done is reinforced that the RLML caracal will have to flown with similiar tactical thought as other ships than can kill frigs. Currently these ships are good at killing frig because of the tactics needed not because the weapon system is good at killing frigs. After the changes the RLML carcals et all will have to start tactical thinking rather than just plow into that frig gang and press F1 and farm km's.


Confirming that, on the zealot / Nomen in particular- Medium pulse guns with 53+ Optimal (Scorch), + 450 / 500 DPS are not weapons designed to slaughter frigs?

What game are you playing?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1230 - 2013-11-13 00:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Please just make tracking computers and enhancers affect missile velocity and explosion velocity/radius...

one of the reasons long range hml were op back in the day was damage projeciton and range built into the weapon.
this was then taken away but you gave us no alternative to properly enhance the missiles with modules.
but if you made it so tracking comps and enhancers also worked on missiles then allot of the problems with missiles would be fixed.

this would naturally go with the implementation of tracking disrupters working on missiles like they do on guns. though i would make them reduce the missile flight time and reduce the explosion velocity and increase the radius.

personally i dig the front loaded idea for rh/lml

but i understand why so many are upset as you are giving them no viable alternative.

by making te/tc work on missiles you would give us options.

edit:

if you are worried this would make capital missiles op (somehowRoll) then just make it so te/tc dont work on capital missiles.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1231 - 2013-11-13 00:06:30 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:


All of the above ships quoted can be killed by a cookie cutter rifter. (yes even after the 'nerfs') if he has a good warp in..



Er, no

Of all of those ships, the only ones threatened by 1 rifter is the zealot and oracle.

Edit: Seriously, a cookie cutter rifter is going to kill an ishtar or navy vexor? Are you for real?


Speaking of the Ishtar. Why is the damage application of a RLML Cerberus an issue while an Ishtar can massively exceed it against pretty much every target type by simply switching to the appropriate drones?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1232 - 2013-11-13 00:08:19 UTC
Eli Green wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I would not have thought it possible, but it seems a large section of the community either has completely forgotten how to properly apply hit and run tactics... or simply never understood how to do it in the first place.


It's called artillery.



No no.. he means really hit and run. Like hit.. do NOT kill ... and run like hell

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1233 - 2013-11-13 00:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron' Soontir Fel
Adwokat Diabla wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
I see no reason not to fly battleships in PvP post rubicon, not everybody flies in environments with bubbles and even there I see plenty of opportunities for battleships to still be fun and useful.

Blobs, sure. But solo - they're finished with the new warp speed mechanics.


Solo BS lol

As if that was ever a thing


This is what I hate. CCP is basically gutting a part of EVE and nobody knows about it. It would be like silently killing off exploration and all the explorers are whining about how CCP is killing off a part of EVE and everybody else is saying that Inucrsions still exist.

Solo PvP happens all the time. And CCP is killing it off by buffing blobs.

Example?

- Need to switch ammo types to kill that pesky Crow that landed while you were kiting a Thorax? Sorry bro, even if you warp off, the Crow will catch you when you land and you still won't be reloaded.





And whoever posted that math post earlier... you fail at math. Caracals get 250DPS by increasing their ROF (not damage) which shortens the amount of time they are firing the 20 or so missiles in the RLML. They have something liek 25 seconds of ~400DPS and 50 seconds of reloading. Go check the math post near the beginning of this thread, 2-3rd page. 19% DPS lost on a Caracal.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#1234 - 2013-11-13 00:13:31 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Eli Green wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I would not have thought it possible, but it seems a large section of the community either has completely forgotten how to properly apply hit and run tactics... or simply never understood how to do it in the first place.


It's called artillery.



No no.. he means really hit and run. Like hit.. do NOT kill ... and run like hell



LolCoolLolLolBig smileSmileOopsCryLol

after RLML players will switch to a different missile system and then CCP will nerf that one, because it's got to be its fault not the 50 other ones they nerfed... reverse power creep

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#1235 - 2013-11-13 00:15:42 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:


All of the above ships quoted can be killed by a cookie cutter rifter. (yes even after the 'nerfs') if he has a good warp in..



Er, no

Of all of those ships, the only ones threatened by 1 rifter is the zealot and oracle.

Edit: Seriously, a cookie cutter rifter is going to kill an ishtar or navy vexor? Are you for real?


Speaking of the Ishtar. Why is the damage application of a RLML Cerberus an issue while an Ishtar can massively exceed it against pretty much every target type by simply switching to the appropriate drones?


Because we're discussing the weapons system the cerb uses to deliver that damage. Drones i daresay are more broken than missiles even but don't expect a rework on those til EVE:Regeneration due out christmas 2018.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#1236 - 2013-11-13 00:19:45 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Adwokat Diabla wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
I see no reason not to fly battleships in PvP post rubicon, not everybody flies in environments with bubbles and even there I see plenty of opportunities for battleships to still be fun and useful.

Blobs, sure. But solo - they're finished with the new warp speed mechanics.


Solo BS lol

As if that was ever a thing


This is what I hate. CCP is basically gutting a part of EVE and nobody knows about it. It would be like silently killing off exploration and all the explorers are whining about how CCP is killing off a part of EVE and everybody else is saying that Inucrsions still exist.

Solo PvP happens all the time. And CCP is killing it off by buffing blobs.

Example?

- Need to switch ammo types to kill that pesky Crow that landed while you were kiting a Thorax? Sorry bro, even if you warp off, the Crow will catch you when you land and you still won't be reloaded.




And whoever posted that math post earlier... you fail at math. Caracals get 250DPS by increasing their ROF (not damage) which shortens the amount of time they are firing the 20 or so missiles in the RLML. They have something liek 25 seconds of ~400DPS and 50 seconds of reloading. Go check the math post near the beginning of this thread, 2-3rd page. 19% DPS lost on a Caracal.


Actually exploration has been getting very subtle nerfs every patch, just start recording your drops vs site completes.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#1237 - 2013-11-13 00:22:36 UTC
Chessur wrote:


Confirming that, on the zealot / Nomen in particular- Medium pulse guns with 53+ Optimal (Scorch), + 450 / 500 DPS are not weapons designed to slaughter frigs?

What game are you playing?


LOL you lot are so wound up it is way to temping to troll the crap out of you. P

As for those stats...meh they would mean nothing if they got the drop on you. 53km+ optimal & 450+ dps mean nothing if you can't hit your target orbiting at 3-5kms. (and at those ranges your nomen./zealot is dead.)

Once again you lot have forgotten to simple bit of basic advice that I have given time and again.

This is Player v Player we are talking about. Not ship fit v ship fit... not everyone flys linked, boosted, implated in PvP.

seriously you lot need to get over yourselves. This change will make SFA impact on the state of small gang/solo pvp where the RLML ships generally operate in the long term. RLML were used to kill frig long before they got buffed. They just became the FOTM that is all. Something else will step up for FTOM and the players who wknow will still kill **** with RLML.

Lighten up it's just a friggin game. Lol

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1238 - 2013-11-13 00:24:25 UTC
Anomaly One wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Eli Green wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I would not have thought it possible, but it seems a large section of the community either has completely forgotten how to properly apply hit and run tactics... or simply never understood how to do it in the first place.


It's called artillery.



No no.. he means really hit and run. Like hit.. do NOT kill ... and run like hell



LolCoolLolLolBig smileSmileOopsCryLol

after RLML players will switch to a different missile system and then CCP will nerf that one, because it's got to be its fault not the 50 other ones they nerfed... reverse power creep



My plan is to use in station games!! I will unload.. wait agro timemr run off. dock. reload in station and undock!! gaining whole 5 seconds!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1239 - 2013-11-13 00:27:04 UTC
Adwokat Diabla wrote:
This does not make sense. Nobody in nullsec uses rapid lights except for small gangs. When PL tried it we quickly realized drones were much better, so I don't even understand what you are trying to accomplish. Everybody has switched over to rail tengus. Nobody really uses missiles, rapid light fleets just aren't a thing anymore.



He is trying to nerf solo high sec cerberus. Simply that. BEcause all good solo ships must be gallente

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1240 - 2013-11-13 00:27:27 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:


As for those stats...meh they would mean nothing if they got the drop on you. 53km+ optimal & 450+ dps mean nothing if you can't hit your target orbiting at 3-5kms. (and at those ranges your nomen./zealot is dead.)



Nomen has both a neut and drones