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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7521 - 2013-11-11 06:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Brib Vogt wrote:
Nightmare pointless? you can fly it so early and switch to paladin when you have the skills. Isn't that the major advantage from T1 -> Faction -> T2. You have T2 potential at higher price with less skills.

Because having some ships as little but "stepping stones" isn't design CCP are getting rid of specifically. Kay, got it.

I mean, entire effort was even called "tiericide" because of getting away from that design.

Also, by the logic of comparing with T1 hulls Paladin shouldn't have damage bonus, amirite? P

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7522 - 2013-11-11 08:28:27 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


Care to cite your internal sources within CCP?


Its not hard to see which of the pirate ships are unbalanced and which are near perfect as is.

Nightmare, bhaalgorn and vindi will not be seeing much change while the mach will be getting a nerf and the rattle will most likely see work done on it.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7523 - 2013-11-11 08:56:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


Care to cite your internal sources within CCP?


Its not hard to see which of the pirate ships are unbalanced and which are near perfect as is.

Nightmare, bhaalgorn and vindi will not be seeing much change while the mach will be getting a nerf and the rattle will most likely see work done on it.



Considerign I see much more vindis in high sec PVP ( I say high sec because pirate BS are very very rare on PVP elesewhere) and in incursiosn than machariels. I would find strange if the vindi doe nto get some fine tunning. Well except for the fact that Rise is super fan of gallente

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7524 - 2013-11-11 08:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Spc One wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Then maybe you should explain to me then why the Vargur and the Kronos both have tracking bonuses.

Because tech 1 "Megathron" also has tracking bonus.

Apocalypse also has optimal range bonus, that's why paladin should have it.


Apocalypse also has a tracking bonus, that's why the Paladin should have it.

Maybe paladin should have both bonuses optimal and tracking.
That said it would look like this:

Amarr Battleship skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to Capacitor capacity
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking

Marauders skill bonus per level:
7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount
5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage
100% bonus to range and velocity of Tractor Beams
70% reduction to Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Can fit Bastion Modules

Good enough ?
I still think tracking for paladin is overpowered.



You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.

If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.

The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#7525 - 2013-11-11 09:42:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Then maybe you should explain to me then why the Vargur and the Kronos both have tracking bonuses.

Because tech 1 "Megathron" also has tracking bonus.

Apocalypse also has optimal range bonus, that's why paladin should have it.


Apocalypse also has a tracking bonus, that's why the Paladin should have it.

Maybe paladin should have both bonuses optimal and tracking.
That said it would look like this:

Amarr Battleship skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to Capacitor capacity
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking

Marauders skill bonus per level:
7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount
5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage
100% bonus to range and velocity of Tractor Beams
70% reduction to Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Can fit Bastion Modules

Good enough ?
I still think tracking for paladin is overpowered.



You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.

If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.

The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.


It already has 33% better cap/sec than the Kronos, which means it already has this bonus buildt in.. it just gets a second cap bonus which gives it absolutely beast cap. why complain about that?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7526 - 2013-11-11 09:56:49 UTC
Doed wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.

If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.

The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.


It already has 33% better cap/sec than the Kronos, which means it already has this bonus buildt in.. it just gets a second cap bonus which gives it absolutely beast cap. why complain about that?




Dont you get it? Its a bonus tied to a skillt hat wil ALWAYS be level 5.


The bonus does not exist! They Made the ship expecting that cap and simply reduced the base cap by 25%.


Bonuses tied to the t1 skill should never be upon base hull attributes, but upon weapons and modules modifiers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7527 - 2013-11-11 10:00:19 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


The nightmare is already a well balanced ship and will not be changing much.


Care to cite your internal sources within CCP?


Taken from the Phantasm S+M thread.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.


You could also go fly one and see for yourself just how well positioned the Nightmare is against it's peers, most of which have already been re-balanced.

Giving the Paladin a tracking bonus makes it and Nightmare 2 sides of the same coin, pointless really. But then again the amount of retards that want a Shield/Missile pirate faction makes me think that the player base would actually enjoy multiple ships with the same performance What?
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7528 - 2013-11-11 12:05:33 UTC
Its too close now for updates.

Vargur gets the ****** stick.

Formerly a mobile 'get in close' with autocannons platform (it couldn't fit artillery). Now a slug - same speed as all the others, forced to use artillery. So what do we get?

Appaling Low DPS (way less than 600 - ffs Ishtar craps all over it). Why?

Always fighting in falloff, rarely getting 'coming straight at you in optimal' - because they fire so slowly, and overhit so much we get wasted DPS by enormous amounts. I'm ok with artillery - slow hard whump is ok for a lot of things, but in missioning - its a PITA when you are stuck still.

As with every mission, imagine the panic. Trying to kill the rats - ungrouped guns, but still overhitting anything smaller than a BS by stellar amounts. Take all the wasted DPS into account everyone. You get a crap bonus and a crap dull ship to use it with.

Any promises from CCP on how quickly we can revisit these? The optimal/fallof bonus is painfully 'pro' lasers. Golems get nothing much, and Kronos - well, its meh meh meh. They are so overly homogenised its amazing.
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#7529 - 2013-11-11 12:22:54 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Doed wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.

If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.

The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.


It already has 33% better cap/sec than the Kronos, which means it already has this bonus buildt in.. it just gets a second cap bonus which gives it absolutely beast cap. why complain about that?




Dont you get it? Its a bonus tied to a skillt hat wil ALWAYS be level 5.


The bonus does not exist! They Made the ship expecting that cap and simply reduced the base cap by 25%.


Bonuses tied to the t1 skill should never be upon base hull attributes, but upon weapons and modules modifiers.


I very much get it. YOU on the other hand DOES NOT get it. Is it really that complicated for you? really?

It has 8 cap/sec, kronos has 6 cap/sec, others got 5.5 and 5.6.

Amarr ships have always had slightly more cap/sec (apart from t2's etc because whoever desined the t2 command ships etc is a lazy clown)

Currently BEFORE said bonus is applied the Paladin has 33.33% more cap/sec than the Kronos, that's HUGE, that's like an officer cap relay buildt into it. add the 25% cap bonus and it's got 10 cap/sec compared to 6 on the Kronos(yes I am very much aware that this takes up 1 of it's bonuses)

You honestly think it's fine that Paladin would have 66.67% more cap/sec than the Kronos without any bonuses and over 78-80%+ more than Vargur and Golem? Please don't ever post on these forums again if you don't happen to have any clue about what you're saying.


Paladin is BEAST post changes, Golem is lame, Kronos is Lame, and Vargur is ASS.
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#7530 - 2013-11-11 13:11:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukinosuke
baltec1 wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


Care to cite your internal sources within CCP?


Its not hard to see which of the pirate ships are unbalanced and which are near perfect as is.

Nightmare, bhaalgorn and vindi will not be seeing much change while the mach will be getting a nerf and the rattle will most likely see work done on it.


why do you all hate machariel too much? maybe the reason is that some used them in AT and kicked your teams ass.. i have an alt flies machariel since nos nerf(RIP my old TFI) and almost same dps with better range and relax tanking and good mobility, machariel gave me..

the only matari philosophy, versatile and fast, hit and run, battleship is machariel, sad but true, matari style combat has been broken ages, maybe since it became only for hisec suicide ganks..

some crazy guys fly them 5-slot shield tanking and choose often mach than vindi, doesnt mean vindi is perfect but machariel not..

only thing i can agree, rattlesnake needs a remake/revamp..

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#7531 - 2013-11-11 13:14:30 UTC
I've never flown in the AT and I can tell you that the Machariel's heading for a nerf. The same thing for the Cynabal and possibly the Dramiel. They're incredibly fast ships with not-so-bad tanks and devastating damage output.

This, however, isn't the pirate rebalancing thread so I'll leave anything else for that thread.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#7532 - 2013-11-11 13:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.

If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.

The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.

Capacitor bonus needs to be here because you have guns that require capacitor so this bonus is required.
If someone caps you out, you can't even shoot, that's why the 25% more cap so it takes longer for attacker to drain your cap and so that you can shoot longer if someone neuts you out.
Vargur can still shoot even if you cap out completely.

It's not FAKE bonus, i still get 25% more cap at level 5.

Also capacitor has already been nerfed on paladin:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • Capacitor has been decreased from 8000 to 7500 on the Paladin.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7533 - 2013-11-11 14:25:47 UTC
Tsukinosuke wrote:


why do you all hate machariel too much? maybe the reason is that some used them in AT and kicked your teams ass.. i have an alt flies machariel since nos nerf(RIP my old TFI) and almost same dps with better range and relax tanking and good mobility, machariel gave me..

the only matari philosophy, versatile and fast, hit and run, battleship is machariel, sad but true, matari style combat has been broken ages, maybe since it became only for hisec suicide ganks..

some crazy guys fly them 5-slot shield tanking and choose often mach than vindi, doesnt mean vindi is perfect but machariel not..

only thing i can agree, rattlesnake needs a remake/revamp..


We don't hate it, we love it. Unfortunately it is simply far too good compared to other battleships.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7534 - 2013-11-11 14:30:17 UTC
Doed wrote:

Kronos is Lame




Oh the irony in your post.
Jake Sake
Doomheim
#7535 - 2013-11-11 14:40:51 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.

If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.

The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.

...

It's not FAKE bonus, i still get 25% more cap at level 5.
...

Don't you get it? The moment you can put your ass in that ship you have already trained your Amarr Battleship skill to 5. That means you get +25% total cap at most early stage of your life with Paladin. Total amount of cap can be integrated in hull (as it's just one of hull's attributes, and was done in previous balancing of other ships). The more reasonable bonus would be -10% (or -5% or -7.5% or -3.75% any would do) to Energy weapon cap consumption as in some other cases. Or any other bonus, but something that not related to hull's attributes. Something like mentioned already weapon/module bonuses.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7536 - 2013-11-11 14:44:19 UTC
Doed wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Doed wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.

If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.

The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.


It already has 33% better cap/sec than the Kronos, which means it already has this bonus buildt in.. it just gets a second cap bonus which gives it absolutely beast cap. why complain about that?




Dont you get it? Its a bonus tied to a skillt hat wil ALWAYS be level 5.


The bonus does not exist! They Made the ship expecting that cap and simply reduced the base cap by 25%.


Bonuses tied to the t1 skill should never be upon base hull attributes, but upon weapons and modules modifiers.


I very much get it. YOU on the other hand DOES NOT get it. Is it really that complicated for you? really?

It has 8 cap/sec, kronos has 6 cap/sec, others got 5.5 and 5.6.

Amarr ships have always had slightly more cap/sec (apart from t2's etc because whoever desined the t2 command ships etc is a lazy clown)

Currently BEFORE said bonus is applied the Paladin has 33.33% more cap/sec than the Kronos, that's HUGE, that's like an officer cap relay buildt into it. add the 25% cap bonus and it's got 10 cap/sec compared to 6 on the Kronos(yes I am very much aware that this takes up 1 of it's bonuses)

You honestly think it's fine that Paladin would have 66.67% more cap/sec than the Kronos without any bonuses and over 78-80%+ more than Vargur and Golem? Please don't ever post on these forums again if you don't happen to have any clue about what you're saying.


Paladin is BEAST post changes, Golem is lame, Kronos is Lame, and Vargur is ASS.





Omg .. and HOW much cap TACHYONS use compared to the weapons the Kronos use?

Clearly you are the one that does not have a clue. I play this game for 7 years, and there always were a reason for ammar have FAR more capacitor than other races.

And my line of reasoning was EXACLTY the one CCP gave OFFICIALLY when they removed that SAME CAPACITOR BONUS form the old apoc. YES.. SAME BONUS!!!! That the paladin inherited because It was made BEFORE the APOC was changed and the Capacitor bonus was rolled INTO the hull.

So shut up. If you are too young to remember when the APOC was changed you should not emit opinion on this.

Trough tiercide CCP has been removign such bonuses, as in the VAgabond for example. For exact same reason, they are FAKE bonuses!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7537 - 2013-11-11 14:46:21 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I've never flown in the AT and I can tell you that the Machariel's heading for a nerf. The same thing for the Cynabal and possibly the Dramiel. They're incredibly fast ships with not-so-bad tanks and devastating damage output.

This, however, isn't the pirate rebalancing thread so I'll leave anything else for that thread.



The dramiel was already nerfed a lot. When CCP commented on the need to nerf machariel they said the ship needed it because it did not pass for the same treatment that the Dramiel passed. That implies that Dramiel is OK.

The cynabal problem is steppign on vagabond toes, not so much its strenght. PRoblem is how to make it not step in vagabond, withotu becomeing too weak.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7538 - 2013-11-11 17:25:31 UTC
I hear what your saying regards the Paladins bonuses, but considering the Paladin is the strongest Marauder post patch it probably doesn't need another strong bonus, even though your argument is sound.
Hawk Firestorm
The-Enclave
#7539 - 2013-11-11 17:52:04 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
For the love of God stop introducing new skills and modules for no reason and just balance the ships. This Bastion thing will be incredibly OP in niche PvP situations and most PvE situations and incredibly useless the rest of the time.



Indeed

Ships,skills,modules need stripping out and relooking at.

All ships should become modular, ie the Golem should be a modular variant of the raven hull like the tengu, the phonebook of skills should be trimmed back as much as possible and modules should be grouped to use existing skills as much as possible.

And NO ship should become immobile using any mode, slower perhaps but not immobile.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7540 - 2013-11-11 18:06:22 UTC
I don't really know about the Pally, because it's the only marauder I can't fly atm. But I have played with the other 3 on SiSi and they are awesome compared to their variants on TQ.

Any words on what skills? I've already trained both my alts to High Energy Physics-4.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.