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To floggeth a dead horse...eth

First post
Author
Edam Neadenil
Bax Corporation
#101 - 2013-11-11 09:27:46 UTC
Maybe CCP should give hisec their caps and supercaps back.

That would equalise things a bit.
Edam Neadenil
Bax Corporation
#102 - 2013-11-11 09:29:24 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:


Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.



Not sure too many people are interested in your retrospective on the event to be honest.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#103 - 2013-11-11 09:35:01 UTC
Edam Neadenil wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:


Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.



Not sure too many people are interested in your retrospective on the event to be honest.


oh very very interested, well not so much in a retrospective more in the critical failiure analysis.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#104 - 2013-11-11 13:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
N'maro Makari wrote:
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.



Picks one of the least critical, least representative, and dumbest posts about the event and chooses to comment on that post, because :CCP:.


I actually commented on it because it was well written, contained constructive points in terms of what we could improve on as well as what we did well (people sometimes forget that as well as improving what you did wrong, keeping the good elements consistent is key) and was written in a polite, balanced tone. There are plenty of other more negative posts that also share the validity and tone of this message and we're working our way through them. If anyone thinks rageposting is the best way to draw attention to a problem that they want fixed, they need to revise their approach.


No, you picked it because it was the only post that contained criticism which in no way implied ****-poor reasoning on CCP's part. You did nothing, NOTHING well regarding this event.

The time frame ostracised most players with a life, the event info was poorly distributed over too many platforms, the in-game event organisers were quite confused about the intended goal of the event (showcasing features or building lore, which are the ONLY two VALID reasons to organize events players can't organize themselves), and the fact you ingnore any negative criticism that doesn't come from the Null-Bloc-Elected CSM proves that your PR department has absolutely no clue how to do their job shot of keeping the players from blowing their last gasket and cancelling their subscription.

At the very least, stop lying to us and have the decency to return to the uninvolved WAI broken beatures loot-spew supporting version of CCP we're used to dealing with instead of implying you're actually trying to find out what went wrong when the list most definitely can't be handled within the RAM of your reinforced server nodes you never seem to deploy.


Your logic is, ironically, scuzzy

Also a small Europe based company holding an event in European hours? Shock and horror!

Let me ask you what did you actually loose on this event? Did you actually loose anything irreplaceable?


Trust.

Well 13: 16 in Iceland we would have had a response by now if they had cared to give one. You were warned this needed dealing with urgently, You chose to ignore it. Patience is a limited commodity, It has been exhausted.
so long, enjoy your new reduced customer base.

Pity you won't be able to afford the parties any more.
You are no longer hemorrhaging customers, This last step of yours has opened an artery. You had the choice to stop the bleeding.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#105 - 2013-11-11 13:38:39 UTC
Killerjock wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Plays EVE for only a year - Knows anything and everything about how CCP works

Sorry to pull years, but it seems way ridiculous that you've played for so little time and yet make sweeping statements about what goes on in CCP HQ.


Plays EVE for 2 tyears - hasn't heard of alts.

You'll find an alt of mine that has 3 months. Doesn't mean the player has played for 3 months. Also, this is my second account while the other has about six more months. 'Nuff said?

It seems way ridicolous that you judge a post by the date at which the character has been created.
Ideas and concepts should be discussed independently of who expressed them.


I'm not sure you read the bit in question, in fact I'm pretty sure you skim read, but you missed the part where the player I was addressing specifically said the length of time they'd been playing, i.e. just over one year.

Reading the whole post is worthwhile if you want to respond with any substance.

**Vherokior **

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#106 - 2013-11-11 13:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
N'maro Makari wrote:
Killerjock wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Plays EVE for only a year - Knows anything and everything about how CCP works

Sorry to pull years, but it seems way ridiculous that you've played for so little time and yet make sweeping statements about what goes on in CCP HQ.


Plays EVE for 2 tyears - hasn't heard of alts.

You'll find an alt of mine that has 3 months. Doesn't mean the player has played for 3 months. Also, this is my second account while the other has about six more months. 'Nuff said?

It seems way ridicolous that you judge a post by the date at which the character has been created.
Ideas and concepts should be discussed independently of who expressed them.


I'm not sure you read the bit in question, in fact I'm pretty sure you skim read, but you missed the part where the player I was addressing specifically said the length of time they'd been playing, i.e. just over one year.

Reading the whole post is worthwhile if you want to respond with any substance.

You really do not get it do you?
There are fewer and fewer listening as we are leaving en masse. We are now just counting down our remaining paid for time.
You can go round and round little details missing the fact that there is a humongous elephant in the room.

But by all means rearrange the deck chairs.

Enjoy your single player game.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#107 - 2013-11-11 13:51:26 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Killerjock wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Plays EVE for only a year - Knows anything and everything about how CCP works

Sorry to pull years, but it seems way ridiculous that you've played for so little time and yet make sweeping statements about what goes on in CCP HQ.


Plays EVE for 2 tyears - hasn't heard of alts.

You'll find an alt of mine that has 3 months. Doesn't mean the player has played for 3 months. Also, this is my second account while the other has about six more months. 'Nuff said?

It seems way ridicolous that you judge a post by the date at which the character has been created.
Ideas and concepts should be discussed independently of who expressed them.


I'm not sure you read the bit in question, in fact I'm pretty sure you skim read, but you missed the part where the player I was addressing specifically said the length of time they'd been playing, i.e. just over one year.

Reading the whole post is worthwhile if you want to respond with any substance.

You really do not get it do you?
There are fewer and fewer listening as we are leaving en masse. We are now just counting down our remaining paid for time.
You can go round and round little details missing the fact that there is a humongous elephant in the room.

But by all means rearrange the deck chairs.

Enjoy your single player game.


Friend, I think you greatly overestimate how many people you claim to speak for.

**Vherokior **

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#108 - 2013-11-11 13:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
N'maro Makari wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Killerjock wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Plays EVE for only a year - Knows anything and everything about how CCP works

Sorry to pull years, but it seems way ridiculous that you've played for so little time and yet make sweeping statements about what goes on in CCP HQ.


Plays EVE for 2 tyears - hasn't heard of alts.

You'll find an alt of mine that has 3 months. Doesn't mean the player has played for 3 months. Also, this is my second account while the other has about six more months. 'Nuff said?

It seems way ridicolous that you judge a post by the date at which the character has been created.
Ideas and concepts should be discussed independently of who expressed them.


I'm not sure you read the bit in question, in fact I'm pretty sure you skim read, but you missed the part where the player I was addressing specifically said the length of time they'd been playing, i.e. just over one year.

Reading the whole post is worthwhile if you want to respond with any substance.

You really do not get it do you?
There are fewer and fewer listening as we are leaving en masse. We are now just counting down our remaining paid for time.
You can go round and round little details missing the fact that there is a humongous elephant in the room.

But by all means rearrange the deck chairs.

Enjoy your single player game.


Friend, I think you greatly overestimate how many people you claim to speak for.


Very helpful.
Applaud the loss of subscribers.

Certainly the way to be able to play your game?

You will see, People who have ethics and principles outnumber The ones who do not.

If one does not have ethics and principles one can never understand that until one stands alone.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#109 - 2013-11-11 14:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: N'maro Makari
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Very helpful.
Applaud the loss of subscribers.

Certainly the way to be able to play your game?

You will see, People who have ethics and principles outnumber The ones who do not.

If one does not have ethics and principles one can never understand that until one stands alone.


What loss? Maybe a few people, and frankly, good on them, this game is not for everyone. But everything is still alive and kicking here. I'm in a corp of around 6-8 regular players, and in a community of many more. Not one I have heard saying they will quit because of this, more to the point I haven't seen any lull in activity. Sure as hell no lull in activity on these forums.

Why exactly are you taking a minor mistake in a game so seriously?

Edit: Also, when do I applaud the loss in my last post? I think you're reading what you want to read, which is every big evil EVE baddie against you.

**Vherokior **

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#110 - 2013-11-11 14:12:10 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Very helpful.
Applaud the loss of subscribers.

Certainly the way to be able to play your game?

You will see, People who have ethics and principles outnumber The ones who do not.

If one does not have ethics and principles one can never understand that until one stands alone.


What loss? Maybe a few people, and frankly, good on them, this game is not for everyone. But everything is still alive and kicking here. I'm in a corp of around 6-8 regular players, and in a community of many more. Not one I have heard saying they will quit because of this, more to the point I haven't seen any lull in activity. Sure as hell no lull in activity on these forums.

Why exactly are you taking a minor mistake in a game so seriously?

Edit: Also, when do I applaud the loss in my last post? I think you're reading what you want to read, which is every big evil EVE baddie against you.



There is no hope that you will ever understand.
When a company has so little respect for it's customers it is time to take your custom elsewhere.
It is not relevant how good the product is and no matter how much pleasure or enjoyment it brings to you.
When you are treated with contempt you leave.

So goodbye:- big evil baddy my ass.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#111 - 2013-11-11 14:13:29 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Very helpful.
Applaud the loss of subscribers.

Certainly the way to be able to play your game?

You will see, People who have ethics and principles outnumber The ones who do not.

If one does not have ethics and principles one can never understand that until one stands alone.


What loss? Maybe a few people, and frankly, good on them, this game is not for everyone. But everything is still alive and kicking here. I'm in a corp of around 6-8 regular players, and in a community of many more. Not one I have heard saying they will quit because of this, more to the point I haven't seen any lull in activity. Sure as hell no lull in activity on these forums.

Why exactly are you taking a minor mistake in a game so seriously?

Edit: Also, when do I applaud the loss in my last post? I think you're reading what you want to read, which is every big evil EVE baddie against you.



There is no hope that you will ever understand.
When a company has so little respect for it's customers it is time to take your custom elsewhere.
It is not relevant how good the product is and no matter how much pleasure or enjoyment it brings to you.
When you are treated with contempt you leave.

So goodbye:- big evil baddy my ass.


Alright, bye.

Stop posting.

**Vherokior **

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#112 - 2013-11-11 14:16:02 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Very helpful.
Applaud the loss of subscribers.

Certainly the way to be able to play your game?

You will see, People who have ethics and principles outnumber The ones who do not.

If one does not have ethics and principles one can never understand that until one stands alone.


What loss? Maybe a few people, and frankly, good on them, this game is not for everyone. But everything is still alive and kicking here. I'm in a corp of around 6-8 regular players, and in a community of many more. Not one I have heard saying they will quit because of this, more to the point I haven't seen any lull in activity. Sure as hell no lull in activity on these forums.

Why exactly are you taking a minor mistake in a game so seriously?

Edit: Also, when do I applaud the loss in my last post? I think you're reading what you want to read, which is every big evil EVE baddie against you.



There is no hope that you will ever understand.
When a company has so little respect for it's customers it is time to take your custom elsewhere.
It is not relevant how good the product is and no matter how much pleasure or enjoyment it brings to you.
When you are treated with contempt you leave.

So goodbye:- big evil baddy my ass.


Alright, bye.

Stop posting.


Have no fear, you enjoy your own voice so much it shall soon be the only one you hear.
Customers are leaving, Your response is GTFO

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#113 - 2013-11-11 14:19:01 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Very helpful.
Applaud the loss of subscribers.

Certainly the way to be able to play your game?

You will see, People who have ethics and principles outnumber The ones who do not.

If one does not have ethics and principles one can never understand that until one stands alone.


What loss? Maybe a few people, and frankly, good on them, this game is not for everyone. But everything is still alive and kicking here. I'm in a corp of around 6-8 regular players, and in a community of many more. Not one I have heard saying they will quit because of this, more to the point I haven't seen any lull in activity. Sure as hell no lull in activity on these forums.

Why exactly are you taking a minor mistake in a game so seriously?

Edit: Also, when do I applaud the loss in my last post? I think you're reading what you want to read, which is every big evil EVE baddie against you.



There is no hope that you will ever understand.
When a company has so little respect for it's customers it is time to take your custom elsewhere.
It is not relevant how good the product is and no matter how much pleasure or enjoyment it brings to you.
When you are treated with contempt you leave.

So goodbye:- big evil baddy my ass.


Alright, bye.

Stop posting.


Have no fear, you enjoy your own voice so much it shall soon be the only one you hear.
Customers are leaving, Your response is GTFO


Said the guy who's quitting yet still posts in his 6 forum threads.

A few will leave, not my business. This game, I guarantee will still be here.

**Vherokior **

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#114 - 2013-11-11 14:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
I've paid for the time, I'll use it if I have your kind permission? And you are right, It is not your business that will fail.
I am sure that your guarantee will be honored when CCP ask you to bail them out and pay up on it!
50$ million should cover a few months, Very generous of you to offer.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#115 - 2013-11-11 14:28:28 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

I've paid for the time, I'll use it if I have your kind permission? And you are right, It is not your business that will fail.
I am sure that your guarantee will be honored when CCP ask you to bail them out and pay up on it!
50$ million should cover a few months, Very generous of you to offer.


You have evidence this game is going down?

What are your principles here exactly? Whatever happens must be of benefit to epicurus? CCP must look after epicurus when he plays the game?

You're continuing to post because you fooled yourself into thinking you're the great moral leader of EVE Online, and you assume that everyone is listening to you.

Were I not morbidly curious, I'd be embarrassed.

**Vherokior **

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#116 - 2013-11-11 14:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
N'maro Makari wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

I've paid for the time, I'll use it if I have your kind permission? And you are right, It is not your business that will fail.
I am sure that your guarantee will be honored when CCP ask you to bail them out and pay up on it!
50$ million should cover a few months, Very generous of you to offer.


You have evidence this game is going down?

What are your principles here exactly? Whatever happens must be of benefit to epicurus? CCP must look after epicurus when he plays the game?

You're continuing to post because you fooled yourself into thinking you're the great moral leader of EVE Online, and you assume that everyone is listening to you.

Were I not morbidly curious, I'd be embarrassed.


When someone thinks morality and ethics are odd, They deserve to be crapped on by the world.

We are defined by our actions and choices.

Ignoring and abusing your customers Is a choice.

I choose not to allow myself to be abused.

How many will?

Hard to understand?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#117 - 2013-11-11 15:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyndrogen
I think this event made it very clear that CCP and the player base have an antagonistic relationship.

Mostly the player base was alienated and left to die. CCP is not here to hand hold you but they sure will lead you off the cliff.

There has to be a better way to "take our money".

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#118 - 2013-11-11 15:12:39 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
So, I got beaten to it with the thread poasting on the recent live event, (woe is me!) but going to anyways because I think it deserves a little broader discussion.

Why I'm not upset:
For those of us in the Meves fleet, not getting there was probably quite disappointing. 10% tidi is always a bit of a bummer. But to be honest I'm not upset because:
A) Anyone with sense didnt bring their trillion-isk-gold-plated-diamond-steering-wheel-poon-patroler, and
B) I think more than anything it's a learning experience. A good few EVE players don't throw themselves into the action, and I think this event was good for getting people to be a little more adventurous.
People commanding fleets probably walk away having learned a little. i.e. Just because a man with a faction tag and a fancy hat tells you something, it's not always going to be a good idea. Also hopefully learned a little about null and moving a fleet through it. All it cost were some disposable ships, if you lost any. And this is of course not to mention that although we didn't get the shiny dev-layed golden loot eggs, most of us got an exciting fleet battle out of it.

What CCP did well:
Had a event in null. Finally. I like this direction because of two reasons
1) This is a game with different players, none should be favorably treated, and
2) It helped to get people to cross over the game's dividing lines. Sure, a lot of folk will go back to living a care free life in hi, or back to the Star Wars Cantina of low. A couple though are going to think. "You know what, this interests me, I want to know more and play it better" And even those who remain in hi sec get to have the benefit of experiencing a different aspect of the game.

What CCP could have done better:
Distance traveling. Dealing with TiDi is a given for any large fleet, but for the Meves folk it seemed like we were being led around in a bit of happy-fun-trail manner, lots of stopping off in systems of no actual importance, probably adding to journey time. In fact from Meves to 8V-SJJ there were probably about 3 stops in between. During which nothing happened. The TiDi was just the icing on the cake.

Maybe could have given a little more notice, but on the flipside it would have given the null folk and pirate sympathizers more time to prepare, and the fleet may have ended up being a non-starter.

Why CCP does not have to babysit you
Of all the things I heard in the aftermath, and I will have to paraphrase, these were some of the choice things I heard:
- "Why can't CCP just make the route HiSec?"
- "Dev actors should have been acting as FCs for us!"
- "Why didn't the Dev actors lead us?"
- "Where are the Devs in Titans?"
- "My ship wasn't fitted for PvP!"
- "CCP sacrificed us to the big bad null alliances!"
And it goes on as such. Now apart from the obvious glaring question of why take a PvE ship into null, there's a few things people seem to misunderstand. The reason why CCP does not hold you by the hand and walk you through null while whacking the wolves on the nose when they try to eat you, is because there are many ways to play this game. Contrary to what some seem to say, allowing you safe secure passage through null is not enabling you to play the game, but rather preventing others from playing how they want in their part of it. We all made a choice, an active choice to go into null. Nobody forced you. There is no reason to give you preferential treatment, or change the game around you, especially since you were warned, or had the common sense to check the top left corner of your screen.


All in all?
6/10 Worthwhile experiment but needs improvement and refining.


Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.
Not a bad post but you do seem to be missing a few of the fundamentals of what happened. It was a CCP run live event, it was not advertised as a PVP event on the contrary it was touted as an event to push back an NPC pirate faction. Had the event been advertised as "an event where you will be jumping into a major nulsec alliance staging system" how many would have turned up in the ships they did, or better still how many would have turned up at all?
Would you have turned up had CCP told you there is a very big possibility event goers are going to run into a major nulsec fleet of many thousand experienced pvp pilots?
Past events have shown, there are those (nulsec groups mainly) who will do whatever they can to disrupt or even destroy any live event, simply because they can, that is how they play the game and that is fine. The nulsec folk and pirate sympathisers (not sure what they are but..) didn't need time to prepare, the highsec staging system was right next to a major nulsec staging area. They were already there and ready to go.

ALL in ALL
CCP should NEVER run nulsec events. Nulsec is lawless and controlled by several large groups who ( ccp have no control of) due to their game play will not allow these sort of events to be successful.
If CCP wants to run nulsec events, work with those who live there to try and make the event successful or at least positive for attendees.

Before CCP attempts any further live events for the masses a way of reducing / getting rid of, Tidi needs to be found.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#119 - 2013-11-11 15:13:24 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:
I think this event made it very clear that CCP and the player base have an antagonistic relationship.




Well they didn't but they do now.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2013-11-11 15:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiryen O'Bannon
It is ironic indeed that the worst thing about this event is the idiotic responses on the forums to complaints about it. It's utterly irrelevant that it was "in null." CCP is the publisher, and if they hold a live event its their obligation not to do it in a way that obviously plays to the interests of one group or another, either overtly, or by implication. Misleading people, even through incompetence, is still unacceptable.

What's apparently too hard for the nullsec bloc to understand is that the problem is that there was little to no opportunity to participate in a meaningful fashion because the entire event was wasted on a pointless series of jumps and then abruptly ended. The problem wasn't getting blown up, it was that it served no purpose. People may as well have just left the fleet commanders to get blown up on their own.

Instead, this event was like advertising open hockey at the rink, telling people an experienced coach would be there, only the add isfor the wrong rink, and the coach not only isnt actually any good but leaves as soon as the puck gets dropped- and to top it off the kids showing up to Open Hockey find they're playing the Chicago Blackhawks. The discussion after the event has benn the equivalent of people bitching about the coach and the wrong location and having the Blachawks start screeching at them that "but that's hockey!"

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.