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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Kane Fenris
NWP
#7421 - 2013-11-08 11:52:50 UTC
for your notice:

CCP Rise wrote:
zbaaca wrote:
will role bonus on golem affect RHML ?


Yes


from: [Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2
SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#7422 - 2013-11-08 15:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: SOL Ranger
chaosgrimm wrote:


CCP said they didn't want to remove the stacking penalty from bastion because of the paladin. The hull bonus is the problem. It can reach over 90km optimal with pulses w/o bastion. The point is to change this bonus while improving the bastion bonus by removing the stacking penalty, so that all marauders can be better. Either that or improving the range bonus on the hulls of the other marauders... I kinda like the idea though of bastion being useful on side.

Tracking has less of an impact the further out you are, agreed. This is why the paladin is crazy right now... Normally you gotta trade range for base wep tracking. It's way out of place right now compared to the rest of the marauders. If CCP finds they paladin acceptable, other marauders need their hull bonus to range increased. No reason the paladin should get that kinda range with pulse outside of bastion, while the vargur can't even overcome the machs turret dps lead with bastion


  • If short range weapons are too long range with T2 long range ammo, then the T2 long range ammo must be addressed.
  • If long range weapons are too short range in general then the long range weapon systems should be addressed directly.

    • CCP does neither and prefers to just avoid the issue, which is unfortunate, but it isn't a reason to mess up the Paladin, the only Marauder with decent useful long range potential.

    The problem was never the range bonus in bastion, nor was it any bonus on the hulls, just simply T2 ammo on short range weapons, I don't know why CCP wants people to use short range weapons at long ranges, I'm assuming they want to because a dev had 'positive' comments about 90km null blasters, even when they're stating they don't like short range weapons hitting too far aka. scorch, mixed messages.

    Additionally, changing the bonus on the Paladin will make it less optimal for MJD/Bastion and a tracking bonus is quite useless on a tach paladin anyway... it would not be a good idea, we really don't want more short range Marauders and then subsequently seeing them get screwed by having to use Bastion/MJD.

    Scorch, Barrage and Null aren't fine, stacking penalized range bonuses on Bastion aren't fine... those issues need to be addressed directly.

    What I'm saying is, Paladin is fine, I just bought one yesterday when partially preparing to flee from the Vargur, don't you dare touch it or I'm gonna have a stroke, please for the love of science and kittens don't try to drag down the only gun platform Marauder really working, if anything then try to buff the Vargur and Kronos as you mentioned.

    Vargur:
    15% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level(was 10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level)
    *Yes, people will still use AC's in PvE exclusively, just because Artillery dps is weaksauce, that issue won't be solved until the weapons themselves are looked at. Vargur is an AC platform, regardless of what kinds of artillery your PG allows you to fit on it; Changing any bonus to an optimal bonus would just kill it outright.

    Kronos:
    10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret optimal range per level(was 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level
    *Is now a rail/blaster boat very practical with MJD/Bastion.

    Or something, I'm tired of thinking about Marauders...

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #7423 - 2013-11-08 15:37:22 UTC
    chaosgrimm wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    chaosgrimm wrote:
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.


    I like the sound of this. Would like to add 1 more thing to it though:
    Falloff bonus should be double the optimal range bonus like everything else.



    Tracking bonus woudl be FAR FAR weaker than range bonus n paladin.

    Paladin with range bonus is the marauder recievign the LARGEST buff!!


    GEt real people!! To be able to fight at MDJ range with PULSES is HUGE!


    The trackign bonuses are the weak ones, because marauders are made to fight at 100km, where tracking is IRRELEVANT (you can track any npc frigate at that distance)


    CCP said they didn't want to remove the stacking penalty from bastion because of the paladin. The hull bonus is the problem. It can reach over 90km optimal with pulses w/o bastion. The point is to change this bonus while improving the bastion bonus by removing the stacking penalty, so that all marauders can be better. Either that or improving the range bonus on the hulls of the other marauders... I kinda like the idea though of bastion being useful on side.

    Tracking has less of an impact the further out you are, agreed. This is why the paladin is crazy right now... Normally you gotta trade range for base wep tracking. It's way out of place right now compared to the rest of the marauders. If CCP finds they paladin acceptable, other marauders need their hull bonus to range increased. No reason the paladin should get that kinda range with pulse outside of bastion, while the vargur can't even overcome the machs turret dps lead with bastion


    Its not that way out. Cruise golems and rail kronos can match it pretty well.

    In fact most peopel will use tachyons not pulses on paladin. Anyoen that has tried them seriously and tested on sisi knows it.

    So the too much range on pulse is not relevant. THe apoc is not problematic with pulses, so the paladin will nto be as well.




    If the paladin gets a trackign isntead of range bonus, then it will become another useles marauder.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Nenwe
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #7424 - 2013-11-08 15:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nenwe
    I like the idea of Bastion mode but with the change that you are doing means that we (golem users) have even less mid slots available to us ( painters, MJD, Tank) and if i understood correctly we should be able to make even stronger tank with Bastion mode but as far as i did test the setups on that was not the case exactly While getting the bonuses from Bastion mode did not make up enough impact for me to call it success. (we are immobile huge chunk of metal)

    Now the bigger issue i think is that everybody compares Marauders against Pirate BS (and i truly hope big nerf on pirate BS) but when i compare my current Golem versus my CNR i get about same tank with both same DPS with both but CNR can deal with missions/sites 50% faster than Golem so somehing is wrong (and i know i overtank my CNR but i like it) (and i use torpedos on golem) (and my skills are maxed)

    Golem should be able to deal sites/missions atleast same speed as CNR and 1 way to do it is with removing the need of TP's (maybe giving each marauder a internal self build TP or tracking enhancer or similiar) and increasing damage bonus and/or explosion velocity/radius (Torpedos need buff on golem)

    Ofcourse for PVP cant say anything since i dont like it anymore (Yes i am carebear and i love it) for PVP balance you have to ask somebody elses opinion
    stoicfaux
    #7425 - 2013-11-08 16:44:11 UTC
    Nenwe wrote:

    Now the bigger issue i think is that everybody compares Marauders against Pirate BS (and i truly hope big nerf on pirate BS) but when i compare my current Golem versus my CNR i get about same tank with both same DPS with both but CNR can deal with missions/sites 50% faster than Golem so somehing is wrong (and i know i overtank my CNR but i like it) (and i use torpedos on golem) (and my skills are maxed)

    Use cruise on the Golem for missions. Or use torps on the CNR, and then compare the two. Translation: cruise >>> torps for most PvE.

    Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
    Antillie Sa'Kan
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #7426 - 2013-11-08 18:18:03 UTC
    SOL Ranger wrote:
    Kronos:
    10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret optimal range per level(was 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level
    *Is now a rail/blaster boat very practical with MJD/Bastion.

    Or something, I'm tired of thinking about Marauders...

    Since lasers have Scorch, AC's have Barrage, and missiles just have crazy range to begin with I think this is a great idea.
    hmskrecik
    TransMine Group
    Gluten Free Cartel
    #7427 - 2013-11-08 18:45:43 UTC
    Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
    SOL Ranger wrote:
    Kronos:
    10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret optimal range per level(was 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level
    *Is now a rail/blaster boat very practical with MJD/Bastion.

    Or something, I'm tired of thinking about Marauders...

    Since lasers have Scorch, AC's have Barrage, and missiles just have crazy range to begin with I think this is a great idea.

    No, it's not. Please put your hands down and step away from the falloff bonus.

    Hint: falloff still enhances rails while optimal does not benefit blasters.
    Cannibal Kane
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #7428 - 2013-11-08 19:01:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
    Why does CCP keep on ranting about the ******** MJD for these ships. Don't need web bonus you got that ******** MJD.

    **** OFF... how does that help me in pvp? Or for people that don't use long range weapons. Do you guys actually think before making changes?

    I honestly think CCP is lazy here with these blanket changes to these marauders. If they wanted to do any of these ships justice each one would have had it's own set abilities and buffs using bastion mode or your ******** MJD bonus. Instead they give them all the exact same change on ships that work and function completely different from each other. Lets nerf the hull and their stats to hell so to make them utterly useless outside of bastion.

    Weak.. just Weak. My beloved Kronos... web bones removed on a ship designed to be in your face. Which makes going in to bastion mode useless since the little bastards will just need to orbit close. At that point... I will really miss my bloody web bones.

    So in conclusion... **** your MJD. Only reason I preferred the Kronos over the vindi is the 3 nuets I could add and it's additional web bones. Now it is getting sold.

    "Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #7429 - 2013-11-08 19:07:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
    Is there any reason we couldn't simply make Marauders the fastest in their hull class? That would seem to solve a lot of issues.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Cannibal Kane
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #7430 - 2013-11-08 19:16:57 UTC
    Cannibal Kane wrote:
    Why does CCP keep on ranting about the ******** MJD for these ships. Don't need web bonus you got that ******** MJD.

    **** OFF... how does that help me in pvp? Or for people that don't use long range weapons. Do you guys actually think before making changes?

    I honestly think CCP is lazy here with these blanket changes to these marauders. If they wanted to do any of these ships justice each one would have had it's own set abilities and buffs using bastion mode or your ******** MJD bonus. Instead they give them all the exact same change on ships that work and function completely different from each other. Lets nerf the hull and their stats to hell so to make them utterly useless outside of bastion.

    Weak.. just Weak. My beloved Kronos... web bones removed on a ship designed to be in your face. Which makes going in to bastion mode useless since the little bastards will just need to orbit close. At that point... I will really miss my bloody web bones.

    So in conclusion... **** your MJD. Only reason I preferred the Kronos over the vindi is the 3 nuets I could add and it's additional web bones. Now it is getting sold.



    Sorry I started getting agitated about reading "USE MJD" for X.

    If you gearing these ship for more PVE focus then I guess that is what they will be used for. Just an irritation that their PVP abilities is getting severely limited.

    "Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
    Alvatore DiMarco
    Capricious Endeavours Ltd
    #7431 - 2013-11-08 19:50:10 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Is there any reason we couldn't simply make Marauders the fastest in their hull class? That would seem to solve a lot of issues.


    Ytterbium says that these hulls "are the epitome of tanking" and that they have to pay for it somehow. He chose making them slow.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #7432 - 2013-11-08 19:53:22 UTC
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    Ytterbium says that these hulls "are the epitome of tanking" and that they have to pay for it somehow. He chose making them slow.

    I guess that's that then.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Mer88
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #7433 - 2013-11-08 20:37:22 UTC
    Nenwe wrote:
    I like the idea of Bastion mode but with the change that you are doing means that we (golem users) have even less mid slots available to us ( painters, MJD, Tank) and if i understood correctly we should be able to make even stronger tank with Bastion mode but as far as i did test the setups on that was not the case exactly While getting the bonuses from Bastion mode did not make up enough impact for me to call it success. (we are immobile huge chunk of metal)

    Now the bigger issue i think is that everybody compares Marauders against Pirate BS (and i truly hope big nerf on pirate BS) but when i compare my current Golem versus my CNR i get about same tank with both same DPS with both but CNR can deal with missions/sites 50% faster than Golem so somehing is wrong (and i know i overtank my CNR but i like it) (and i use torpedos on golem) (and my skills are maxed)

    Golem should be able to deal sites/missions atleast same speed as CNR and 1 way to do it is with removing the need of TP's (maybe giving each marauder a internal self build TP or tracking enhancer or similiar) and increasing damage bonus and/or explosion velocity/radius (Torpedos need buff on golem)

    Ofcourse for PVP cant say anything since i dont like it anymore (Yes i am carebear and i love it) for PVP balance you have to ask somebody elses opinion


    why would u even fit mjd on a cruise missile golem? mission has always been find without it. mjd is for pvp and long range sentry boats . theres no reason to fit it on 95% of the missions. especially on missile boat.

    u said cnr runs missile 50% faster than golem? post what mission you are comparing to and time it took?
    i find cruise golem and cnr near identical on TQ for missioning but i choose golem for occassional looting and lesser ammo usage. Torp golem is 100% for sure faster for certain missions like buzz kill, damsel , attack of the drones even gone beserk.
    Joe Risalo
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #7434 - 2013-11-08 20:42:38 UTC
    Mer88 wrote:
    Nenwe wrote:
    I like the idea of Bastion mode but with the change that you are doing means that we (golem users) have even less mid slots available to us ( painters, MJD, Tank) and if i understood correctly we should be able to make even stronger tank with Bastion mode but as far as i did test the setups on that was not the case exactly While getting the bonuses from Bastion mode did not make up enough impact for me to call it success. (we are immobile huge chunk of metal)

    Now the bigger issue i think is that everybody compares Marauders against Pirate BS (and i truly hope big nerf on pirate BS) but when i compare my current Golem versus my CNR i get about same tank with both same DPS with both but CNR can deal with missions/sites 50% faster than Golem so somehing is wrong (and i know i overtank my CNR but i like it) (and i use torpedos on golem) (and my skills are maxed)

    Golem should be able to deal sites/missions atleast same speed as CNR and 1 way to do it is with removing the need of TP's (maybe giving each marauder a internal self build TP or tracking enhancer or similiar) and increasing damage bonus and/or explosion velocity/radius (Torpedos need buff on golem)

    Ofcourse for PVP cant say anything since i dont like it anymore (Yes i am carebear and i love it) for PVP balance you have to ask somebody elses opinion


    why would u even fit mjd on a cruise missile golem? mission has always been find without it. mjd is for pvp and long range sentry boats . theres no reason to fit it on 95% of the missions. especially on missile boat.

    u said cnr runs missile 50% faster than golem? post what mission you are comparing to and time it took?
    i find cruise golem and cnr near identical on TQ for missioning but i choose golem for occassional looting and lesser ammo usage. Torp golem is 100% for sure faster for certain missions like buzz kill, damsel , attack of the drones even gone beserk.


    Even though the Golem doesn't use cap for weapons, it still has terrible cap.
    A MWD burns through cap so quickly, it's not worth it.
    However, an AB doen't give enough speed to be worth the slot it takes.
    Torp Golems aren't the best way to fly the Golem anymore.
    It's at most 200 dps more than a Cruise Golem, but at less that 1/6th the range WITH T2 range rigs, and even with jav torps, you're getting less dps than Fury cruise, and still have less range by a significant amount.

    So, this leads to triagulate with MJD and cruise. You'll continue hitting targets the entire time, and in many missions, you'll get there faster, and have more cap left over.
    Shivanthar
    #7435 - 2013-11-08 21:51:45 UTC
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Is there any reason we couldn't simply make Marauders the fastest in their hull class? That would seem to solve a lot of issues.


    Ytterbium says that these hulls "are the epitome of tanking" and that they have to pay for it somehow. He chose making them slow.


    And I think he is darn wrong. In order them to be "the epitome of tanking", they have already paid this by;

    - being completely stationary
    - not being able to switch this so-called-"epic" state for 1 min.

    While being out of bastion, nerfing them means they're being punished for what they already have so far. Nothing more.

    _Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
    Julie Thorne
    Project Insanity
    #7436 - 2013-11-08 22:12:26 UTC
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Is there any reason we couldn't simply make Marauders the fastest in their hull class? That would seem to solve a lot of issues.


    Ytterbium says that these hulls "are the epitome of tanking" and that they have to pay for it somehow. He chose making them slow.


    Maybe the missions will get redesigned in a way that these insane tanks will make sense.

    In any case Vargur with MWD is only 7.1% faster than the Paladin. One needs to move, the other doesn't.
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #7437 - 2013-11-08 22:46:08 UTC
    I firmly believe the Vargur requires a few(3-4) launcher hardpoints, following Tempest/Minmatar tradition and design.

    It would slightly combat the homogenization currently plaguing the Bastion Marauders and also combat the inherent drawbacks the Vargur suffers from in the current intended role in Rubicon.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Alvatore DiMarco
    Capricious Endeavours Ltd
    #7438 - 2013-11-08 23:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
    Julie Thorne wrote:
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Is there any reason we couldn't simply make Marauders the fastest in their hull class? That would seem to solve a lot of issues.


    Ytterbium says that these hulls "are the epitome of tanking" and that they have to pay for it somehow. He chose making them slow.


    Maybe the missions will get redesigned in a way that these insane tanks will make sense.

    In any case Vargur with MWD is only 7.1% faster than the Paladin. One needs to move, the other doesn't.


    Inb4 someone says "Moving around in a Marauder is the wrong way to fly them now".


    SOL Ranger wrote:
    I firmly believe the Vargur requires a few(3-4) launcher hardpoints, following Tempest/Minmatar tradition and design.

    It would slightly combat the homogenization currently plaguing the Bastion Marauders and also combat the inherent drawbacks the Vargur suffers from in the current intended role in Rubicon.



    If the Vargur had launcher hardpoints, that would be amazing. They don't even need to have bonuses. I vote yes to this. Very very yes. RHMLs are go.
    Julie Thorne
    Project Insanity
    #7439 - 2013-11-09 00:11:44 UTC
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

    Inb4 someone says "Moving around in a Marauder is the wrong way to fly them now".


    Luckily even Ytterbium would disagree with that argument: :)

    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD.


    I am banking on him finally realising that it is a bit unbalanced that all marauders have practically the same DPS and speed with MWD - but some of them have to move closer to apply that damage.
    Julie Thorne
    Project Insanity
    #7440 - 2013-11-09 00:13:32 UTC
    I have a few suggestions, tell me what you think:

    1. Bastion range bonus: 15% optimal, 30% falloff, 20% missile speed, 20% flight time, no stacking penalty

    First range is current SISI build, 2nd is with my suggestion. (All data is from EFT, therefore may be incorrect. Also my apologies, if it is hard to read.)

    Pulse Paladin with 2x TC II, Conflag/INMF: 31.6km + 18.7km vs 30.8km + 21.3km (-0.8km + 2.6km)
    Tachyon Paladin with 2x TC II, INMF: 69.6km + 46.8km vs 67.8km + 53.3km (-1.8km + 6.5km)
    Blaster Kronos 1x TC II, 1x TE II, 5% falloff implant, Null: 18.8km + 40.5km vs 18.1km + 45.6km (-0.7km + 5.1km)
    Blaster Kronos 1x TC II, 1x TE II, 5% falloff implant, CNAM: 6.7km + 28.9km vs 6.5km vs 32.5km (-0.2km + 3.6km)
    Vargur 2x TC II, 5% falloff implant, RF Fusion: 4.6km + 70.8km vs 4.5km vs 80.5km (-0.1km + 9.7km)
    Vargur 2x TC II, 1x TE II 5% falloff implant, RF Fusion: 4.7km + 74.8km vs 4.7km + 89.7km (0km + 14.9km)
    Golem 2x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II, 5% missile velocity implant, rage torp: 43.4km vs 53.9km (+10.5km)
    Golem 2x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II, 5% missile velocity implant, CN torp: 52.1km vs 64.7km (+12.6km)

    Paladin stays practically the same, Kronos gets a bit more falloff, Vargur and torp Golem finally see decent increases in range. Bastion gives twice as much falloff than optimal in line with TCs and recently rebalanced TEs. Ships which can (and need to) fit more than 2 range mods are not penalised for that any more.

    2. Increase the PG requirement of bastion to 1100.

    Tachyon Paladin is getting too good. It will be much better than the Nightmare. Even with this change it could still fit everything but with small compromises. Rest of the ships - including pulse Paladin - are unaffected.

    3. Reverse the speed nerf. (It is too big of a nerf for the Vargur.)