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To floggeth a dead horse...eth

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Sneaky Jack
Kreetikal
#21 - 2013-11-08 14:10:33 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
So, I got beaten to it with the thread poasting on the recent live event, (woe is me!) but going to anyways because I think it deserves a little broader discussion.

Why I'm not upset:
For those of us in the Meves fleet, not getting there was probably quite disappointing. 10% tidi is always a bit of a bummer. But to be honest I'm not upset because:
A) Anyone with sense didnt bring their trillion-isk-gold-plated-diamond-steering-wheel-poon-patroler, and
B) I think more than anything it's a learning experience. A good few EVE players don't throw themselves into the action, and I think this event was good for getting people to be a little more adventurous.
People commanding fleets probably walk away having learned a little. i.e. Just because a man with a faction tag and a fancy hat tells you something, it's not always going to be a good idea. Also hopefully learned a little about null and moving a fleet through it. All it cost were some disposable ships, if you lost any. And this is of course not to mention that although we didn't get the shiny dev-layed golden loot eggs, most of us got an exciting fleet battle out of it.

What CCP did well:
Had a event in null. Finally. I like this direction because of two reasons
1) This is a game with different players, none should be favorably treated, and
2) It helped to get people to cross over the game's dividing lines. Sure, a lot of folk will go back to living a care free life in hi, or back to the Star Wars Cantina of low. A couple though are going to think. "You know what, this interests me, I want to know more and play it better" And even those who remain in hi sec get to have the benefit of experiencing a different aspect of the game.

What CCP could have done better:
Distance traveling. Dealing with TiDi is a given for any large fleet, but for the Meves folk it seemed like we were being led around in a bit of happy-fun-trail manner, lots of stopping off in systems of no actual importance, probably adding to journey time. In fact from Meves to 8V-SJJ there were probably about 3 stops in between. During which nothing happened. The TiDi was just the icing on the cake.

Maybe could have given a little more notice, but on the flipside it would have given the null folk and pirate sympathizers more time to prepare, and the fleet may have ended up being a non-starter.

Why CCP does not have to babysit you
Of all the things I heard in the aftermath, and I will have to paraphrase, these were some of the choice things I heard:
- "Why can't CCP just make the route HiSec?"
- "Dev actors should have been acting as FCs for us!"
- "Why didn't the Dev actors lead us?"
- "Where are the Devs in Titans?"
- "My ship wasn't fitted for PvP!"
- "CCP sacrificed us to the big bad null alliances!"
And it goes on as such. Now apart from the obvious glaring question of why take a PvE ship into null, there's a few things people seem to misunderstand. The reason why CCP does not hold you by the hand and walk you through null while whacking the wolves on the nose when they try to eat you, is because there are many ways to play this game. Contrary to what some seem to say, allowing you safe secure passage through null is not enabling you to play the game, but rather preventing others from playing how they want in their part of it. We all made a choice, an active choice to go into null. Nobody forced you. There is no reason to give you preferential treatment, or change the game around you, especially since you were warned, or had the common sense to check the top left corner of your screen.


All in all?
6/10 Worthwhile experiment but needs improvement and refining.


I Beg to DISAGREE IN MOST of what you say.

Null sec is DEAD and WILL be DEAD and not more people but LESS will even take an interest on it.
Second if NULL was so good . .WHY OH WHY do you have ALTS in highsec ???? could it be because you need to make ISKIES?? buy stuff ? get mats? etc etc etc ?? you see the OPPOSITE does not apply, Bears have no alts in NULL !

But the point being that this "event " was nothing short of a major debacle that will only introduce newbie players to the bad side of PvP and Null sec.

This was CCP throwing you a bone. nothing else.

was this GOOD FOR EVE ? that is the question, NOT if was good for NULL
this answer will be given to you in the form of Newbie players staying totally OUT of null. so enjoy.

AND that I can tell you from the 5 or 6 newbies I spoke to.

RUMINATE on that .
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#22 - 2013-11-08 14:13:13 UTC
I like the OP's view and details thereof and can't say there's more I'd add to the discussion as far as missed points.

My own path for this event led me to prepurchase and stage my deathboat in Deltole expecting to go have some fun and get shot up somewhere and see what the Devs had planned for our funerals. Prior to yesterday I hadn't been to a live event since the opening of the permanent wormhole between Yulai and Promised Land, this still stands since at the point where I was about to launch I got word through comms channels that Sarum Prime was closed and TiDi was spreading. This told me that somewhere someone didn't get the memo to reinforce the necesary nodes since the staging systems weren't holding up to the load. So I called abort and went back to my basecamp and continued about my day. Watching comms told me that my choice was the correct one since many of the would-be participants spent literally hours traveling and did not reach the event prior to it ending.

As was said in the Live Events channel, it's not about loot, isk, or even surviving it, it's about bieng there when it happened.

I'll put live events back on the bookshelf until at some point in the future the planning and execution is not broken or worse.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#23 - 2013-11-08 14:24:17 UTC
Sneaky Jack wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:


I Beg to DISAGREE IN MOST of what you say.

Null sec is DEAD and WILL be DEAD and not more people but LESS will even take an interest on it.
Second if NULL was so good . .WHY OH WHY do you have ALTS in highsec ???? could it be because you need to make ISKIES?? buy stuff ? get mats? etc etc etc ?? you see the OPPOSITE does not apply, Bears have no alts in NULL !

But the point being that this "event " was nothing short of a major debacle that will only introduce newbie players to the bad side of PvP and Null sec.

This was CCP throwing you a bone. nothing else.

was this GOOD FOR EVE ? that is the question, NOT if was good for NULL
this answer will be given to you in the form of Newbie players staying totally OUT of null. so enjoy.

AND that I can tell you from the 5 or 6 newbies I spoke to.

RUMINATE on that .




WELL if we're GOING to be TALKING LIKE THIS, then I fear this MAY be IN vain, but HERE goes.

You CAN speculate ALL you LIKE, BUT the fact IS, I'm a HISEC player predominantly, and I've BEEN playing live events for a while.

Your ARGUMENT seem to be THAT because THE event WASN'T specifically tailored to hisec PLAYERS, then IT must BE a bad THING.

**Vherokior **
Sneaky Jack
Kreetikal
#24 - 2013-11-08 14:33:43 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
Sneaky Jack wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:


I Beg to DISAGREE IN MOST of what you say.

Null sec is DEAD and WILL be DEAD and not more people but LESS will even take an interest on it.
Second if NULL was so good . .WHY OH WHY do you have ALTS in highsec ???? could it be because you need to make ISKIES?? buy stuff ? get mats? etc etc etc ?? you see the OPPOSITE does not apply, Bears have no alts in NULL !

But the point being that this "event " was nothing short of a major debacle that will only introduce newbie players to the bad side of PvP and Null sec.

This was CCP throwing you a bone. nothing else.

was this GOOD FOR EVE ? that is the question, NOT if was good for NULL
this answer will be given to you in the form of Newbie players staying totally OUT of null. so enjoy.

AND that I can tell you from the 5 or 6 newbies I spoke to.

RUMINATE on that .




WELL if we're GOING to be TALKING LIKE THIS, then I fear this MAY be IN vain, but HERE goes.

You CAN speculate ALL you LIKE, BUT the fact IS, I'm a HISEC player predominantly, and I've BEEN playing live events for a while.

Your ARGUMENT seem to be THAT because THE event WASN'T specifically tailored to hisec PLAYERS, then IT must BE a bad THING.



WELL .. miss the point much?

you should perhaps send a Public letter of Thank you to CCP for the wonderfully organized event and the satisfaction it provided.

Seems strange to actually paint the all debacle in any other light then a scathing critique of CCP.

But I'm Happy that you managed to see some positive points. Roll
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#25 - 2013-11-08 14:37:15 UTC
Sneaky Jack wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Sneaky Jack wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:


I Beg to DISAGREE IN MOST of what you say.

Null sec is DEAD and WILL be DEAD and not more people but LESS will even take an interest on it.
Second if NULL was so good . .WHY OH WHY do you have ALTS in highsec ???? could it be because you need to make ISKIES?? buy stuff ? get mats? etc etc etc ?? you see the OPPOSITE does not apply, Bears have no alts in NULL !

But the point being that this "event " was nothing short of a major debacle that will only introduce newbie players to the bad side of PvP and Null sec.

This was CCP throwing you a bone. nothing else.

was this GOOD FOR EVE ? that is the question, NOT if was good for NULL
this answer will be given to you in the form of Newbie players staying totally OUT of null. so enjoy.

AND that I can tell you from the 5 or 6 newbies I spoke to.

RUMINATE on that .




WELL if we're GOING to be TALKING LIKE THIS, then I fear this MAY be IN vain, but HERE goes.

You CAN speculate ALL you LIKE, BUT the fact IS, I'm a HISEC player predominantly, and I've BEEN playing live events for a while.

Your ARGUMENT seem to be THAT because THE event WASN'T specifically tailored to hisec PLAYERS, then IT must BE a bad THING.



WELL .. miss the point much?

you should perhaps send a Public letter of Thank you to CCP for the wonderfully organized event and the satisfaction it provided.

Seems strange to actually paint the all debacle in any other light then a scathing critique of CCP.

But I'm Happy that you managed to see some positive points. Roll


WELL .. make no points much?

Seriously, what did you actually head into null expecting?

**Vherokior **
Judiciary Pag
Usually Harmless
#26 - 2013-11-08 14:43:05 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.


Glad to hear CCP is taking the feedback to heart. While I was pretty frustrated and upset with this live event (not because I lost anything, but because I couldn't really participate), it is only because I care, I think that goes for a lot of people rageposting on this forum today. So I hope you guys don't get discouraged from doing future live events, judging by the commotion for this one caused, we desperately want them :P
Sneaky Jack
Kreetikal
#27 - 2013-11-08 14:47:25 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
Sneaky Jack wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Sneaky Jack wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:


I Beg to DISAGREE IN MOST of what you say.

Null sec is DEAD and WILL be DEAD and not more people but LESS will even take an interest on it.
Second if NULL was so good . .WHY OH WHY do you have ALTS in highsec ???? could it be because you need to make ISKIES?? buy stuff ? get mats? etc etc etc ?? you see the OPPOSITE does not apply, Bears have no alts in NULL !

But the point being that this "event " was nothing short of a major debacle that will only introduce newbie players to the bad side of PvP and Null sec.

This was CCP throwing you a bone. nothing else.

was this GOOD FOR EVE ? that is the question, NOT if was good for NULL
this answer will be given to you in the form of Newbie players staying totally OUT of null. so enjoy.

AND that I can tell you from the 5 or 6 newbies I spoke to.

RUMINATE on that .




WELL if we're GOING to be TALKING LIKE THIS, then I fear this MAY be IN vain, but HERE goes.

You CAN speculate ALL you LIKE, BUT the fact IS, I'm a HISEC player predominantly, and I've BEEN playing live events for a while.

Your ARGUMENT seem to be THAT because THE event WASN'T specifically tailored to hisec PLAYERS, then IT must BE a bad THING.



WELL .. miss the point much?

you should perhaps send a Public letter of Thank you to CCP for the wonderfully organized event and the satisfaction it provided.

Seems strange to actually paint the all debacle in any other light then a scathing critique of CCP.

But I'm Happy that you managed to see some positive points. Roll


WELL .. make no points much?

Seriously, what did you actually head into null expecting?


At the lack of OFFICIAL word, we held, only 1 pilot got poded on my fleet, and that for being impatient.

This WAS NOT advertised as a NULL SEC EVENT, and that attracted a s***load of newbies, that had no knowledge of NULL / LOW / HIGH sec mechs.

what did I expect you ask ? well maybe the LIVE EVENT that CCP ADVERTISED?
My fleet came prepared with empty clones, basic ships and prepared to wake up back in high. I'm mentoring about 8 or 9 newbies .. and I mean NEWBIES that wanted to participate in a LIVE EVENT .

well guess what? we never got near it.
Hulemand
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2013-11-08 14:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Hulemand
Here is a point of view from a Serpentis loyalist and what we did.

Before the event – Mail my Serpentis contact about the CONCORD rumors, get confirmation that Serpentis interest is in danger.

18.00 - Start forming up a fleet of Serpentis and Angel Cartel loyalist pilots, already thinking that this event will be a massive gank fest.

18.30 – Fleet is a little low for our usual fleets as about 12 pilots depart from our low sec base in aHACs in route for FD- ready to defend Serpentis interest.

18.45 – We enter Syndicate via MHC and continue towards the staging system.

18.52 – Arrive in FD-, local is at 250+, mainly CFC and Brave Collective, we warp to station and dock up waiting for the event to begin. Local at this time is already full of the usual spam you can expect from CFC.

18.55 – an IDS reporter talks with green in local making the goon spam grow

Around 19.00 - The Serpentis character Launette Vylier starts speaking in local and only after blocking Brave Collective and half of CFC am I able to keep up with the storyline. Local at this time is around 320+.

19.05 – We are getting reports about the “good guys” (haha, EVE is now a children’s game with good vs. evil) moving towards Stacmon. Knowing that we are most likely the only ones in local that actually cares about the Serpentis’s and at the event not just to murder fancy DEV spawned battleships – not to mention anyone else – I mail Launette Vylier telling her I will take my little taskforce of loyalist capsules towards placid low sec as to intercept the empire fleets there.

19.06 – Get a confirmation from Launette Vylier that the plan is approved by Serpentis Command and she does at the same time direct the murder hungry local towards the other direction so we slip quietly away from the crowd. Everyone in fleet agrees that going to the “fighting” area of the event would just see us killed by the so-called “pirate defenders” anyway.

19.30’ish we enter Ostingele and hit a light TiDi. Our scout reports a tech 3 Shadow Cartel fleet in Alperaute having fun with killing high sec people trying to get to event. We decide to move around them and end up in heavy TiDi’ed Covryn behind a 100’ish man fleet coming from empire. We decide to engage these to prevent them from getting to Syndicate.
In the end we get to kill a good amount of really poorly fit newbies while enjoying heavy TiDi. The poor guys get trapped between Shadow Cartel (now in Gare) and us. We had a good time, I am not sure the fleet that got decimated felt the same way.

HERE FOLLOWS THE POINT
My fleet and I did get the feeling that we were supporting the Serpentis to the best of our ability but at the same time we would all have liked to be a bigger part of the event. Why didn’t the Serpentis – which we have worked with in former events - not contact us in advance asking us to organize support for the possible threat? A call to arms to all of New Eden – like CFC gives a **** about the storyline, they just want kills.

I saw a lot of spam in local as for instance a reply to Launette Vylier ‘s attempt to stir up the gathered “defenders” “Launette Vylier, and my axe” . 95% of the “pirate defenders” gave **** about the story or the role-play element.

What do I think the event team can learn from this?

  • If you want to make a big shoot-it-all-event like you did yesterday, do a CCP DEV roam.

  • If you want to do a storyline driven role-play’ish event, use the few of us that actually spent time doing this part of EVE. Keep it smaller. Let it build up over a bit of time. Every time you make it huge, you will see the power blocks dominate.

  • High sec have no chance against the null sec blocks – I can only agree with the critic of the lambs being lead to slaughter. The fleet we took part in destroyed had not a single logi.

Admiral Hulemand Core Operations Overseer
Killerjock
Von Neumann Industries
#29 - 2013-11-08 15:21:19 UTC
Hulemand wrote:
Here is a point of view from a Serpentis loyalist and what we did.


Adding to this to try and put things together from both sides - in the hope of giving useful advice.

Quote:
18.30 – Fleet is a little low for our usual fleets as about 12 pilots depart from our low sec base in aHACs in route for FD- ready to defend Serpentis interest.


I get into the stagin system, meves. Local is about 600+ and chat is an endless spam of "x armor", "x shield" - I drop my line in and get invited to a fleet of about 15 people; FC has no leadership skills (not holding ti against you mate :P).

Quote:
18.45 – We enter Syndicate via MHC and continue towards the staging system.


Local and fleetchat is a constant flow of contradictory information. Someone says to move to Botane - I go check. Someone else mentions stacmon - another of the fleet's piltos goes to check.
About the same time, fleet gets sorted to have bonuses.

Quote:
18.52 – Arrive in FD-, local is at 250+, mainly CFC and Brave Collective, we warp to station and dock up waiting for the event to begin. Local at this time is already full of the usual spam you can expect from CFC.


Main fleet is still at Meves; some information comes that we should move to Ihal. Botane is clean, scout hasn't reached stacmon due to TIDI.

Quote:
18.55 – an IDS reporter talks with green in local making the goon spam grow
19.00 - The Serpentis character Launette Vylier starts speaking in local and only after blocking Brave Collective and half of CFC am I able to keep up with the storyline. Local at this time is around 320+.


Main fleet still at meves; I get back from Botane; FC decides to start moving to Ihal for lack of better information. Nothing received from CCP/ISD or anyone else except through twitter. Scout still trying to reach stacmon.

19.05 - I'm 4 jumps towards Ihal; main fleet body (about 20 ppl now) still around meves. No clear information

19.15 - scout reaches stacmon, reports heavy TIDI and nothing there. FC decides to move there anyway. Rumors have that event is going on in 8V-SJJ.

19.30 - Fleet assembles at Stacmon. We decide to proceed towards 8V through losec.

19.40 - Fleet assembles at the gate to Aupergille (or something like that); about 7pilots left, rest is scattered through empire.
On the other side, a T3 fleet is popping noobs like mad. I get tackled and barely escape with the pod.

That's how the event looked like from our side.

We were forced to rely on little to no information; I jsut got back after several years off and I wass unaware of the "live events" channel; so were my fleetmates it seems; no reliable information came in and those few pieces came through TWITTER??

WHY DO I COMPLAIN
Keeping the location secret till the last moment and then forcing people to walk all the way there through null means two things:
- unorganized PUG fleets will get scattered;
- null-sec alliances will use cynos to get there a lot faster and prepare for a fight.

Null-sec alliances are ready to mount a fleet on short notice; that's necessary to maintain control over sovereign space. Hisec people aren't. Giving the former even more time by forcing the PUGs to get there on the lo/null sec dwellers terms just made the slaughter more obvious.
Roaming around without any clue as to where to go was annoying and took a long time. In the meanwhile, the event was ongoing. I didn't get the chance to see any NPC or CCP representative. The event simply hasn't taken place for us: what I got of the story came through the forums today.

Now I have to wonder what the goal was:
- show something cool to players? That failed, at least for those who were killed at the numerous camps;
- interest people in PVP? whomever hasn't had previous experience has probably left with a feeling of utter powerlessness; hardly an incentive;
- entertain the populace? Well, the campers probably had fun. Me, I just felt like I've wasted a couple hours. let's hope those 24 people who blapped me had fun...
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#30 - 2013-11-08 15:41:40 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.



Picks one of the least critical, least representative, and dumbest posts about the event and chooses to comment on that post, because :CCP:.
Farelle
The Black Rabbits
RAZOR Alliance
#31 - 2013-11-08 16:03:53 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Horatio Nately wrote:
I was there at Meves with you. when they announced destination stacmon i was ******* pissed because they could have told us that in the first place. the ccp guy tried to tell us where to go but somewhere between 2 jumps out of meves he totally bailed from the majority of the fleet. there were a ton of people waiting on the stacmon gate to jump through to low sec that were left completely in the dark. at that point i said **** it and went to go hunt in lowsec placid after tidi went down


Yes, exactly! This is what should have happened, pilots making informed decisions about where they fly into.

If boggles the mind that people somehow think they were frogmarched at gunpoint into the crack of mount doom.




CCP Promises navy led mission with eggers supporting them.



I don't think the problem is with the people who were sacrificed.


I think you have grossly misinterpreted the information you were given. Where does it actually say the Navies would lead us? Cause you see, it looked to me like they just said "This is the next place" not "I SHALL LEAD YOU TO BATTLE"

In fact, pretty sure at one point they even said: "We're here as a separate entity to you guys"



No, they didn't at least not to the fleet I was in, we heard nothing from CCP at all. Got destination updates out of the live events channel, and when the slaughter that was Doril became obvious, a lot of us called it and ran. Hours travelling to random points on the map in horrendous TiDi for nothing.
Wolf Kyosuke
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-11-08 16:09:34 UTC
Sneaky Jack wrote:
At the lack of OFFICIAL word, we held, only 1 pilot got poded on my fleet, and that for being impatient.

This WAS NOT advertised as a NULL SEC EVENT, and that attracted a s***load of newbies, that had no knowledge of NULL / LOW / HIGH sec mechs.

what did I expect you ask ? well maybe the LIVE EVENT that CCP ADVERTISED?
My fleet came prepared with empty clones, basic ships and prepared to wake up back in high. I'm mentoring about 8 or 9 newbies .. and I mean NEWBIES that wanted to participate in a LIVE EVENT .

well guess what? we never got near it.


Just wanted to bring up the fact that you were attacking NPC pirates, the home territory for all NPC pirate factions is NPC-nullsec. The news post the following day gave you the form-up system for the pirate defense fleet, both of which were located in null-sec. So you did receive what was advertised in that regard, there were a few things they may have forgotten to take into consideration though.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#33 - 2013-11-08 16:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: N'maro Makari
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.



Picks one of the least critical, least representative, and dumbest posts about the event and chooses to comment on that post, because :CCP:.


This man disagree with me! CCP should ignore him! Scoundrel!

This aside, I have pointed out before the CCP has commented on threads other than this, threads which you'll probably find more you your liking.

And as I said before, I didn't do any of this for dev love or for likes, or for tears (delicious though they may or may not be) what I was, and in fact still am trying to is encourage people to maybe de-escalate their emotional response, take a step back and look at the grander picture.

**Vherokior **
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-11-08 17:02:13 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
So, I got beaten to it with the thread poasting on the recent live event, (woe is me!) but going to anyways because I think it deserves a little broader discussion.

Why I'm not upset:
For those of us in the Meves fleet, not getting there was probably quite disappointing. 10% tidi is always a bit of a bummer. But to be honest I'm not upset because:
A) Anyone with sense didnt bring their trillion-isk-gold-plated-diamond-steering-wheel-poon-patroler, and
B) I think more than anything it's a learning experience. A good few EVE players don't throw themselves into the action, and I think this event was good for getting people to be a little more adventurous.
People commanding fleets probably walk away having learned a little. i.e. Just because a man with a faction tag and a fancy hat tells you something, it's not always going to be a good idea. Also hopefully learned a little about null and moving a fleet through it. All it cost were some disposable ships, if you lost any. And this is of course not to mention that although we didn't get the shiny dev-layed golden loot eggs, most of us got an exciting fleet battle out of it.

What CCP did well:
Had a event in null. Finally. I like this direction because of two reasons
1) This is a game with different players, none should be favorably treated, and
2) It helped to get people to cross over the game's dividing lines. Sure, a lot of folk will go back to living a care free life in hi, or back to the Star Wars Cantina of low. A couple though are going to think. "You know what, this interests me, I want to know more and play it better" And even those who remain in hi sec get to have the benefit of experiencing a different aspect of the game.

What CCP could have done better:
Distance traveling. Dealing with TiDi is a given for any large fleet, but for the Meves folk it seemed like we were being led around in a bit of happy-fun-trail manner, lots of stopping off in systems of no actual importance, probably adding to journey time. In fact from Meves to 8V-SJJ there were probably about 3 stops in between. During which nothing happened. The TiDi was just the icing on the cake.

Maybe could have given a little more notice, but on the flipside it would have given the null folk and pirate sympathizers more time to prepare, and the fleet may have ended up being a non-starter.

Why CCP does not have to babysit you
Of all the things I heard in the aftermath, and I will have to paraphrase, these were some of the choice things I heard:
- "Why can't CCP just make the route HiSec?"
- "Dev actors should have been acting as FCs for us!"
- "Why didn't the Dev actors lead us?"
- "Where are the Devs in Titans?"
- "My ship wasn't fitted for PvP!"
- "CCP sacrificed us to the big bad null alliances!"
And it goes on as such. Now apart from the obvious glaring question of why take a PvE ship into null, there's a few things people seem to misunderstand. The reason why CCP does not hold you by the hand and walk you through null while whacking the wolves on the nose when they try to eat you, is because there are many ways to play this game. Contrary to what some seem to say, allowing you safe secure passage through null is not enabling you to play the game, but rather preventing others from playing how they want in their part of it. We all made a choice, an active choice to go into null. Nobody forced you. There is no reason to give you preferential treatment, or change the game around you, especially since you were warned, or had the common sense to check the top left corner of your screen.


All in all?
6/10 Worthwhile experiment but needs improvement and refining.


Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.


That wasn't feedback, that was arse-kissing.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#35 - 2013-11-08 17:10:48 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
[quote=N'maro Makari]


That wasn't feedback, that was arse-kissing.


Yes, I was arse-kissing. You caught me. Well done. But it doesn't matter now since CCP have already given me my 3 trillion isk, my own Station, a rare edition "Prepare-Your-Anu's" Thorax, and... ah yes, made me the King of Iceland.

It seems I had ample motivation, because CCP are so rewarding to my kind words.

**Vherokior **
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#36 - 2013-11-08 17:22:23 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.



Picks one of the least critical, least representative, and dumbest posts about the event and chooses to comment on that post, because :CCP:.


I actually commented on it because it was well written, contained constructive points in terms of what we could improve on as well as what we did well (people sometimes forget that as well as improving what you did wrong, keeping the good elements consistent is key) and was written in a polite, balanced tone. There are plenty of other more negative posts that also share the validity and tone of this message and we're working our way through them. If anyone thinks rageposting is the best way to draw attention to a problem that they want fixed, they need to revise their approach.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#37 - 2013-11-08 17:54:34 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
So, I got beaten to it with the thread poasting on the recent live event, (woe is me!) but going to anyways because I think it deserves a little broader discussion.

Why I'm not upset:
For those of us in the Meves fleet, not getting there was probably quite disappointing. 10% tidi is always a bit of a bummer. But to be honest I'm not upset because:
A) Anyone with sense didnt bring their trillion-isk-gold-plated-diamond-steering-wheel-poon-patroler, and
B) I think more than anything it's a learning experience. A good few EVE players don't throw themselves into the action, and I think this event was good for getting people to be a little more adventurous.
People commanding fleets probably walk away having learned a little. i.e. Just because a man with a faction tag and a fancy hat tells you something, it's not always going to be a good idea. Also hopefully learned a little about null and moving a fleet through it. All it cost were some disposable ships, if you lost any. And this is of course not to mention that although we didn't get the shiny dev-layed golden loot eggs, most of us got an exciting fleet battle out of it.

What CCP did well:
Had a event in null. Finally. I like this direction because of two reasons
1) This is a game with different players, none should be favorably treated, and
2) It helped to get people to cross over the game's dividing lines. Sure, a lot of folk will go back to living a care free life in hi, or back to the Star Wars Cantina of low. A couple though are going to think. "You know what, this interests me, I want to know more and play it better" And even those who remain in hi sec get to have the benefit of experiencing a different aspect of the game.

What CCP could have done better:
Distance traveling. Dealing with TiDi is a given for any large fleet, but for the Meves folk it seemed like we were being led around in a bit of happy-fun-trail manner, lots of stopping off in systems of no actual importance, probably adding to journey time. In fact from Meves to 8V-SJJ there were probably about 3 stops in between. During which nothing happened. The TiDi was just the icing on the cake.

Maybe could have given a little more notice, but on the flipside it would have given the null folk and pirate sympathizers more time to prepare, and the fleet may have ended up being a non-starter.

Why CCP does not have to babysit you
Of all the things I heard in the aftermath, and I will have to paraphrase, these were some of the choice things I heard:
- "Why can't CCP just make the route HiSec?"
- "Dev actors should have been acting as FCs for us!"
- "Why didn't the Dev actors lead us?"
- "Where are the Devs in Titans?"
- "My ship wasn't fitted for PvP!"
- "CCP sacrificed us to the big bad null alliances!"
And it goes on as such. Now apart from the obvious glaring question of why take a PvE ship into null, there's a few things people seem to misunderstand. The reason why CCP does not hold you by the hand and walk you through null while whacking the wolves on the nose when they try to eat you, is because there are many ways to play this game. Contrary to what some seem to say, allowing you safe secure passage through null is not enabling you to play the game, but rather preventing others from playing how they want in their part of it. We all made a choice, an active choice to go into null. Nobody forced you. There is no reason to give you preferential treatment, or change the game around you, especially since you were warned, or had the common sense to check the top left corner of your screen.


All in all?
6/10 Worthwhile experiment but needs improvement and refining.


Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.


Way to answer an obviouslt bribed post, CCP Goliath. This event was a ****stain and you damn well know it. And for the ''you weren't forced to go into null'', that,s not the point. I had a SB and just wanted to take a cloaky peek at the new content so I took a longer nullsec route (tried to avoid TiDi, without much success) to avoid the camps as soon as the destination was revealed. However, 5 minutes after I got there the devs blew up the mission objective.
I swear to god, it was impossible to get there and even have a chance to interact with the pirates unless the gatecamps let you through and you were in a cruiser or smaller. And those did not have the muscle needed to take on the event ships defending the station. At all.

I give this event a 0/10, because it failed at everything except encouraging griefing, which this game doesn,t need event organizers for.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-11-08 17:58:12 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.



Picks one of the least critical, least representative, and dumbest posts about the event and chooses to comment on that post, because :CCP:.


I actually commented on it because it was well written, contained constructive points in terms of what we could improve on as well as what we did well (people sometimes forget that as well as improving what you did wrong, keeping the good elements consistent is key) and was written in a polite, balanced tone. There are plenty of other more negative posts that also share the validity and tone of this message and we're working our way through them. If anyone thinks rageposting is the best way to draw attention to a problem that they want fixed, they need to revise their approach.


You two should get a room, when's the big day?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#39 - 2013-11-08 17:59:45 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
[quote=N'maro Makari]


Way to answer an obviouslt bribed post, CCP Goliath. This event was a ****stain and you damn well know it.


I refer you up the thread to where I boast about all the rewards CCP has given me. (it's a ****-tonne)

**Vherokior **
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#40 - 2013-11-08 18:03:30 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to put together such well considered feedback. We really appreciate it and will take these points on board in our retrospective on the event.



Picks one of the least critical, least representative, and dumbest posts about the event and chooses to comment on that post, because :CCP:.


I actually commented on it because it was well written, contained constructive points in terms of what we could improve on as well as what we did well (people sometimes forget that as well as improving what you did wrong, keeping the good elements consistent is key) and was written in a polite, balanced tone. There are plenty of other more negative posts that also share the validity and tone of this message and we're working our way through them. If anyone thinks rageposting is the best way to draw attention to a problem that they want fixed, they need to revise their approach.


You two should get a room, when's the big day?


I enjoy constructive posting.

**Vherokior **