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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

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SuperBeastie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#421 - 2011-11-18 22:09:40 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Yes you are right. CCP needs to make the things Dockable now that there nerfed into the ground as they needed to be but at the same time even Capital pilots need to be able to change ships now that it's not One ship to rule them all.

Ever hear of a CSMA?



You would have to be a complete moron to park your super in a CSMA.

Do you have any faction ships, like a Baalghorn or Nightmare? Maybe a nice officer fitted Machariel? You do? Good! Now put 10 of them in your corp's SMA and go do your own thing for a while.

Don't worry, they'll be ~just fine~ there.

CSMAs are about as juicy to pop as a CSAA.

#1 if youre really that worried about people in your corp stealing your stuff, you can just put up your own tower and uncheck that little "allow corp access" button then whoever wants in the tower needs the PW.
#2 Theyre not the same as CSAAs at all because you can still get your stuff out after the tower has been RFed, then you just log off and since you're not aggressed, poof you disappear in 1 minute.
#3 you can get a holding alt and log him off if youre really that worried about it . . . there are several for sale in the character bazaar ======> that way
#4 the problem with docking supercarriers is that now you have a ship with a HUGE EHP buffer RRing a station after it comes out of reinforce that can simply dock, get free repair and undock again to resume RR . . . this may be a bit dangerous depending on the station, but the gallente and caldari ones have very large undock radii

Say no to free repairs on 3,000,000 armor HP


Can i join your corp with pos roles?

[center]SuperBeastie's Third Party Service My in-game Channel is Supers Third Party[/center]
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#422 - 2011-11-18 22:13:10 UTC
Innominate wrote:
Innominate wrote:
Quote:

New drone bay capacities will be: 30 Fighters and/or Fighter Bombers for the Aeon, Revenant and Wyvern; 35 Fighters and/or Fighter Bombers for the Nyx and Hel.


So, take as a given that all supercarriers will carry 20 bombers. This leaves the Aeon/Wyvern room to carry 10 fighters, and the Nyx/Hel room for 15. The nyx gets a 25% damage bonus to fighters on top of that, fielding effectively 18.75 fighters. Under these changes the nyx is able to do 87.5% more damage with fighters than the Aeon/Wyvern, this is more fighter damage than the Aeon/Wyvern generally do currently.

It makes sense for the lower EHP Nyx/Hel to do more damage than the Aeon/Wyvern. The 50% effective fighter damage bonus from the drone bay size seems more than enough for fighters. The Nyx doing nearly double the fighter damage of the Aeon/Wyvern is ridiculous.

Perhaps modify the nyxes damage bonus to apply to fighter bombers only?


lol self quoting.

I feel the need to elaborate and point out that the nyx's doing 90% more fighter damage than the wyvern/aeon is not an issue of supercaps vs subcaps, or whether they're being nerfed too hard or not hard enough. This is purely an issue of the supercarriers balance among themselves.

The 5/10 fighters situation that existed prior to the current numbers is even worse, with the nyx getting 125% the fighter dps of the aeon/wyvern.

Whatever the nerf ends up being, the nyx doing 90%(or more) more fighter damage than the aeon/wyvern is broken.



Seems the update is being rushed out. With CCPs re-org and the people left being rushed I'm expecting a lot of issues with this update.
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#423 - 2011-11-18 22:38:43 UTC
I'm really sorry, but you are doing this wrong.

Nyx is too popular compared to Aeon/Wyvern and the Hel isn't popular enough. Its the bonuses.

Nerf the Nyx bonus as its too attractive. Scrap the Hel bonus as its irredeemable and just give it the same bonus as the nerfed Nyx.

Learn from the Revenant, i.e. +1/level of drones +1/level of carrier (fighters and bombers only) This has a knock on effect of making the DCU a +10% each bonus and a serious competitor for every high slot mod.

This would have restricted the supercarriers to launching five drones .. you could have given them the Rorqal double damage bonus and no one would have complained. The supercarrier could still be used to run anomalies (remember this character can no longer dock so letting it do other stuff is NOT wrong). It could still use five double damage sentries against POS. But the spam from it is massively reduced to the betterment of the game.

Make drone skills apply to fighters and bombers .. blancing on 5.5.5.5 skill levels making those skills we trained up STILL usable and giving us a reason to go from 4-5 even in our new permanent tomb.

The huge number of conventional drones being launched in waves would have ceased to be a problem as only five could launch at a time.

Limit the four racial supers to 15 fighters/bombers .. the max number at carrier 5 and with 5 DCUs fitted.

I really don't understand why you managed to screw this up so badly given how much time you had.

The tank stuff will do .. but making the Hel the shield tanked damage bonus super would have seen a lot more of them deployed over the year than the frankly terrible bonus it had, and still has.
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#424 - 2011-11-18 22:59:04 UTC
Charles Edisson wrote:

Seems the update is being rushed out. With CCPs re-org and the people left being rushed I'm expecting a lot of issues with this update.



I think you just hit the nail on the head of the problem. Short timers disease as we called it in the military. You know your leaving, so why give a rats a55 about what you do or who else it messes up. This more than any reason is why the super nerfs should be put off till after the rest of the patch gets released, there are already a ton of game changing fight breaking updates coming in this new patch. please put some sanity back in the super ships.
MastahFR
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#425 - 2011-11-19 01:32:39 UTC
What about changing the Hel bonus please ? This ship is a ******* joke. Where is the supposed Minmatar capital rebalance ?! Boost or what ever you called it, CCP ?
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#426 - 2011-11-19 01:57:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Svennig
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
Charles Edisson wrote:

Seems the update is being rushed out. With CCPs re-org and the people left being rushed I'm expecting a lot of issues with this update.



I think you just hit the nail on the head of the problem. Short timers disease as we called it in the military. You know your leaving, so why give a rats a55 about what you do or who else it messes up. This more than any reason is why the super nerfs should be put off till after the rest of the patch gets released, there are already a ton of game changing fight breaking updates coming in this new patch. please put some sanity back in the super ships.




Have either of you been on Sisi lately? Given this is, you know, the test server feedback forum that's kinda important?

If you had, you would know that this update is looking to be one of the easiest, simplest and best thought out updates in many many years. Tidi: an end to lag. New Nebulae. New skins for caldari and gallente. New T3 bcs. New T2 warfare links amongst other T2 goodies. Corp bookmarks. Changes to POS fuelling. Hybrid changes (need to go further, but it's a start) which have been the subject of iteration and discussion between the playerbase and CCP, a good precedent. The end to the logoffski. Warp and jump. Autopilot docks at stations. New session timer display. Engine Trails. Turret miss effects. So many UI changes I can't fuckin list them all, here's a few more: prerequisites show training time, ships show that they're uninsured, adding fitting to market quickbars, alliance jump bridges in in-game map, new warp effect, new cyno effect, new jump effect, stargates orientated as they should be.

They solved issues that have been bugging me about the UI for years, and issues that I didn't even know I found annoying. It's like BFF got a steroid injection to get DONE some of the stuff that the players want. And they did it all in a period of turmoil and upheaval at CCP.

But yeah, you're right, it definitely feels rushed out because they took your ******* cookie~ ******* ******.
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#427 - 2011-11-19 11:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Charles Edisson
Svennig wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
Charles Edisson wrote:

Seems the update is being rushed out. With CCPs re-org and the people left being rushed I'm expecting a lot of issues with this update.



I think you just hit the nail on the head of the problem. Short timers disease as we called it in the military. You know your leaving, so why give a rats a55 about what you do or who else it messes up. This more than any reason is why the super nerfs should be put off till after the rest of the patch gets released, there are already a ton of game changing fight breaking updates coming in this new patch. please put some sanity back in the super ships.




Have either of you been on Sisi lately? Given this is, you know, the test server feedback forum that's kinda important?

If you had, you would know that this update is looking to be one of the easiest, simplest and best thought out updates in many many years. Tidi: an end to lag. New Nebulae. New skins for caldari and gallente. New T3 bcs. New T2 warfare links amongst other T2 goodies. Corp bookmarks. Changes to POS fuelling. Hybrid changes (need to go further, but it's a start) which have been the subject of iteration and discussion between the playerbase and CCP, a good precedent. The end to the logoffski. Warp and jump. Autopilot docks at stations. New session timer display. Engine Trails. Turret miss effects. So many UI changes I can't fuckin list them all, here's a few more: prerequisites show training time, ships show that they're uninsured, adding fitting to market quickbars, alliance jump bridges in in-game map, new warp effect, new cyno effect, new jump effect, stargates orientated as they should be.

They solved issues that have been bugging me about the UI for years, and issues that I didn't even know I found annoying. It's like BFF got a steroid injection to get DONE some of the stuff that the players want. And they did it all in a period of turmoil and upheaval at CCP.

But yeah, you're right, it definitely feels rushed out because they took your ******* cookie~ ******* ******.


Yes I've been on the test server, almost every day for the last 2 weeks.
I know CCP are making a lot of changes/possible improvements to the game.
What I was trying to get at is it's better to do say 8 things properly than have a shot at doing 12 things and get things wrong.

More haste, less speed

BTW in most instances people that resort to profanities are loosing the argument.
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#428 - 2011-11-19 14:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Phunnestyle
Phunnestyle wrote:
Roboticus420 wrote:
Phunnestyle wrote:
[quote=Phunnestyle]Ok heres what CCP have done right & you should be commended for it:

+ Pinging aggro timers,yes commit to the fight.
+ Limit Supercarrier to Fighters/Fighter Bombers

This is what CCP have done wrong, but never the less it is a small price to pay in consideration to other mistakes & is there by aggreable to accept:

+/- Reduction of HP on suppercarriers is basically for the haters, all that needed changing for at least the time being was the above 2 + points.

Now this is what CCP have done drastically wrong & needs changing immediately:

-Drone bays on suppercarriers need to be able to carry an optimal amount of both Fighters & Fighter Bombers. So in other words at least 20 Fighters & 20 Fighterbombers.
This is common sence & logical to all but the most stubborn of fools. While reducing Supers flexibility, you have overstepped your mark & made Supers limited in offencive ploys. For with this rediculious implimentation Supers will as has been said again & again, only be used after the winter patch with Fighters & target painters in the Mids. They will only use Fighters for the most obvious of reasons.
If they are to be intercepted by a Subcap fleet, it is primary among all else that they be at least able to give a fight back. So Fighter Bombers take & indeffinate back seat due to this patch failure. CCP need to acknowledge this failure as soon as possible & as stubborn as we know you are,you need to sort it out & inform us that you wish to sort this stupidity out. This you MUST do as you obviously don't want to give back the skill points intwined with the learning of the Fighter Bombers skill.





As has been said why insult us by increasing the drone bay by 5 when you can do the job properly an give full compliments of 20 Fighters & 20 Fighterbombers. Increasing the capacity by 5 does not in any way, shape or form resolve the problem, it only shows that you acknowledge that the drone bay is too small on supers, hence puts you in as bad if not worse position than before, as you have amitted to being foolish. You have half listened to what we are saying, now you need to stop being stubborn & do the job properly. Your making such a hard time of this, your trying peoples patience, listen to us & act upon it.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#429 - 2011-11-19 14:55:56 UTC
supers are gay. ccp is doing you all a big favor by taking away your FABULOUS capabilities so you can see how poofty you have all truly have become.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#430 - 2011-11-19 14:58:59 UTC
Indeed the super capitals don't need the RR bonus for the HEL... Thats what carriers are for.
let it launch more fighters or something DOWN WITH THE NYX SUPPREMACY!!!
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#431 - 2011-11-19 15:05:55 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Indeed the super capitals don't need the RR bonus for the HEL... Thats what carriers are for.
let it launch more fighters or something DOWN WITH THE NYX SUPPREMACY!!!


why? gallente have 4 drone boats and not enough imo. you want to take away the one niche that gallente only are supposed to have?

if anything, supers should be allowed to fit triage modules and then that bonus all of the sudden makes way more sense then you think.

plus, it makes a supercarrier particuliarly vulnerable but have a monster of a local tank at the same time.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#432 - 2011-11-19 16:21:18 UTC
Phunnestyle wrote:
I assumed you would have nothing that held water to say back, was correct ofc,but it surprised me that you tried to respond anyway. Yes some of what you had to say was legit,but an aweful lot & I mean soo much of what Goons cooked up was total and utter nonescence, Goons are well known for chatting absolute rubbish, never gets old.
That quote is 100% true it astounds you to see facts infront of your very nose I know.


i support you for the chief supporter of buffing supercaps you will do more for our cause than we ever could

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#433 - 2011-11-19 16:22:13 UTC
the people demand more incoherent and self-entitled rants for supercap supremacy

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Kerdrak
Querry Moon
#434 - 2011-11-19 16:47:40 UTC
I don't see the reason to nerf the dronebay with fighter limit down to 30-35 fighters. Most people will keep remaining fighters in corp hangar array and make changes acording to the needs, making this nerf a corp hangar nerf instead.

If you want supercarriers to use only fighter bombers, do it then. But removing regular drones it's more than enough in my opinion.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#435 - 2011-11-19 17:33:05 UTC


Charles Edisson wrote:

What I was trying to get at is it's better to do say 8 things properly than have a shot at doing 12 things and get things wrong.

...

BTW in most instances people that resort to profanities are loosing the argument.


Your point is predicated on this being something that is being done wrong. It is not.

BTW In most instances, complaining about how a point is being made is the last line of defence of indefensible.
SuperBeastie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#436 - 2011-11-19 20:35:27 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Indeed the super capitals don't need the RR bonus for the HEL... Thats what carriers are for.
let it launch more fighters or something DOWN WITH THE NYX SUPPREMACY!!!


why? gallente have 4 drone boats and not enough imo. you want to take away the one niche that gallente only are supposed to have?

if anything, supers should be allowed to fit triage modules and then that bonus all of the sudden makes way more sense then you think.

plus, it makes a supercarrier particuliarly vulnerable but have a monster of a local tank at the same time.



LOL fitting a triage mod on a super would be the dumbest thing ever lets use a 20b isk ship to do what a 1b isk ship can do just as easily

[center]SuperBeastie's Third Party Service My in-game Channel is Supers Third Party[/center]
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#437 - 2011-11-19 20:43:43 UTC
SuperBeastie wrote:
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Indeed the super capitals don't need the RR bonus for the HEL... Thats what carriers are for.
let it launch more fighters or something DOWN WITH THE NYX SUPPREMACY!!!


why? gallente have 4 drone boats and not enough imo. you want to take away the one niche that gallente only are supposed to have?

if anything, supers should be allowed to fit triage modules and then that bonus all of the sudden makes way more sense then you think.

plus, it makes a supercarrier particuliarly vulnerable but have a monster of a local tank at the same time.



LOL fitting a triage mod on a super would be the dumbest thing ever lets use a 20b isk ship to do what a 1b isk ship can do just as easily



except you would have to sit still for 5 minutes and let people beat the living **** out of you and risk that 20bil while doing it. also, you can fit the things far easier than a regular carrier and could in fact fit more rep than the carrier so, it would be a challenge that most supercarrier pilots have never encountered and put them in a position where they could actually be taking massive damage from dreads instead of just titans and other supercarriers. it gives the ship another role besides launch drones engage target which is all it presently does.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#438 - 2011-11-19 22:28:59 UTC


For manufacturing purposes, since the Dreadnaught is losing the Drones, will you remove the Drone bay component from manfuacturing them?!

Lol

Where I am.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#439 - 2011-11-19 23:26:03 UTC
A lot of super whining is overshadowing the fact that supercapitals can speedtank dreads.

There needs to be a buff to tracking and explosion velocity, and it should be done very soon.

do that and you will see a resurgence of dreads on the field, and carriers to support them.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Waukesha
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#440 - 2011-11-19 23:58:55 UTC
SCs needs 20 Fighters & 20 Fighterbombers otherwise there not worth the investment.