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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7401 - 2013-11-07 18:49:36 UTC
I honestly don't see why the Golem can't have its bonus extended to RHMLs.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7402 - 2013-11-07 18:54:44 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I suppose that maybe each of these ships has a niche situation where it is better than another ship.

Golem - POS bashing
Paladin - Counter sniper
Vargur - CQB - I.E., fit ACs and burn close range targets
Kronos - Kinda the all around ship... The jack of all trades.

It seems fairly clear that the speed reductions all but limits the Marauders to a long-range role. To make them slightly more useful in short-range rolls, I would suggest the following:

• Increase the base speed of the Kronos to 115 m/sec (-5) and the Vargur to 120 m/sec (-10).
• Replace the Golem's Marauder TP bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus (in-line with the T1 Raven bonuses)
• Replace the Vargur's Marauder tracking bonus with a 5% damage bonus (in-line with the T1 Tempest bonuses).



are you serious? so golem and vargur magically gets a 25% bonus to dps ? how is that balancing? can you imagine how OP that sounds? the only reason tempest, raven gets a ROF is because they have less guns, missile bays.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7403 - 2013-11-07 19:03:15 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Hell ***** wrote:
Liquidtrance123 wrote:
Jake Sake wrote:


3. Paladin optimal is too high in B-mode, it's simply not needed - change to tracking.



Playing with EFT settings its telling me my Rubicon T2 Tach Paladin in Bastion Mode (1x TC) gets me 233KM Optimal and 40km Falloff with Aurora. I would agree that is obscene range not many people will use / need. It would take almost 3 minutes and 3 MJD jumps to put me that far out from a static target. Tracking would be MUCH better and would be much needed.


I agree with what your saying, the last thing a Bastioned up Paladin needs is more optimal, but to give it tracking would step on the toes of the Nightmare, which goes against the goal of the changes - marauders have the edge in tank and projection whilst the pirate BS's win out in absolute DPS and application.

Plus if your using Aurora your doing it wrong, INMF tachs and conflag pulses are where its at.


If Marauders are all about projection and not damage application, why is the Paladin the only one that doesn't have an application bonus?

Kronos: Tracking
Vargur: Tracking
Golem: Target Painter


When you are fighting at 50km + with the lasers, tracking is almost useless. Vargur needs tracking because its a close range ship,

i can say the same about why vargur has to fight in falloff when all other marauder fights in optimal range.
paladin is OP as is, no need to fine tune it most to optimize its damage even more.

people say vargur got nerf vs the TQ version. well its not true imo, it got nerfed in comparison because every other marauder got stronger but vargur got nothing useful.
Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
#7404 - 2013-11-07 19:36:58 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I suppose that maybe each of these ships has a niche situation where it is better than another ship.

Golem - POS bashing
Paladin - Counter sniper
Vargur - CQB - I.E., fit ACs and burn close range targets
Kronos - Kinda the all around ship... The jack of all trades.

It seems fairly clear that the speed reductions all but limits the Marauders to a long-range role. To make them slightly more useful in short-range rolls, I would suggest the following:

• Increase the base speed of the Kronos to 115 m/sec (-5) and the Vargur to 120 m/sec (-10).
• Replace the Golem's Marauder TP bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus (in-line with the T1 Raven bonuses)
• Replace the Vargur's Marauder tracking bonus with a 5% damage bonus (in-line with the T1 Tempest bonuses).



are you serious? so golem and vargur magically gets a 25% bonus to dps ? how is that balancing? can you imagine how OP that sounds? the only reason tempest, raven gets a ROF is because they have less guns, missile bays.



Besides that, Arthur Aihaken, really?

Close range....yet invalidate golem's close range weapon system... seriously? How that would be in line with the other non-missile setups using close range turrets?

If TP-s are gone... what to fit in the three (3) empty slots? As it has no "missile tracking computers"...
OP as hell, on top of this the dps....

If you go through with this, lets forbid any close range weapons on all of them. There: "true sniper" -.-
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7405 - 2013-11-07 20:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mer88 wrote:
are you serious? so golem and vargur magically gets a 25% bonus to dps ? how is that balancing? can you imagine how OP that sounds? the only reason tempest, raven gets a ROF is because they have less guns, missile bays.


Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
Close range....yet invalidate golem's close range weapon system... seriously? How that would be in line with the other non-missile setups using close range turrets?

It doesn't really matter at this point, as the new Marauders are so flawed they're beyond redemption.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#7406 - 2013-11-07 21:01:22 UTC
Paladin has a damage bonus.
Vargur has a RoF bonus.
Kronos has a damage bonus.
Golem has a ...velocity bonus.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7407 - 2013-11-07 21:03:37 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Paladin has a damage bonus.
Vargur has a RoF bonus.
Kronos has a damage bonus.
Golem has a ...velocity bonus.

Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair".

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#7408 - 2013-11-07 21:22:44 UTC
Cassiel Seraphim wrote:

I'll add a few things to what Dav said ...

It would make sense to refer to the Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher thread if things were consistent. But they are not. Let me point a few things out that might help you see why we want a specific notice in _this_ thread.


you do realize he was not talking only about the 100% launcher dmg bonus which would be totaly fine if it applied,
but of speed and explosion velocity and bastion too?

Dav Varan wrote:


RHML is less powerful to start with than either Torp or Cruise.
It needs the same bonusing on the hull to keep it's power in ratio with other BS launchers.
Otherwise its not an option and Sandbox means options.

Kronos flyer would be rightly miffed if 350's and D250's did not get bonused removing choice.


this may be true for pve but i cant help it... im pretty sure applying all bonuses (painter do already apply) would make it a ridiculus force in pvp.

the other bs do not get ex radius and ex velocity for a reason!
if you'd just wanted the 100% dmg bonus to apply it would be fine,
although with bonused target painters on the hull it would be more bonused than any other bs having the option to fit those so that might be the reason why it does not apply.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7409 - 2013-11-07 21:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mer88
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Paladin has a damage bonus.
Vargur has a RoF bonus.
Kronos has a damage bonus.
Golem has a ...velocity bonus.

Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair".



vargur only exp damage for t2 ammo
kronos lock in them/kin
paladin lock in them/em
golem all damage types for t2 ammo.

i think dev should half the distance of all cruise missiles that wayou will appreciate the velocity bonus on the golem more instead of the current wahhh too much range i dont need. we need rof instead!!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7410 - 2013-11-07 22:07:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mer88 wrote:
i think dev should half the distance of all cruise missiles that wayou will appreciate the velocity bonus on the golem more instead of the current wahhh too much range i dont need. we need rof instead!!

Please. The velocity bonus gain on the Golem is equivalent to an extra T1 hydraulic rig that any T1 or Faction hull can run. Without having to remain stationary.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7411 - 2013-11-07 22:33:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mer88
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
i think dev should half the distance of all cruise missiles that wayou will appreciate the velocity bonus on the golem more instead of the current wahhh too much range i dont need. we need rof instead!!

Please. The velocity bonus gain on the Golem is equivalent to an extra T1 hydraulic rig that any T1 or Faction hull can run. Without having to remain stationary.


huh? the bonus is 50% to velocity. or are you talking about bastions 30%? all i am saying is if dev nerf the cruise missile speed/ flighttime, then they will appreciate the hull bonus. but on second thought, it will compeletely screw the hulls with no velocity bonus like raven or scorpion navy
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7412 - 2013-11-07 23:03:26 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
huh? the bonus is 50% to velocity. or are you talking about bastions 30%? all i am saying is if dev nerf the cruise missile speed/ flighttime, then they will appreciate the hull bonus. but on second thought, it will compeletely screw the hulls with no velocity bonus like raven or scorpion navy

I thought we were referring to the Bastion's bonus, sorry.

The problem isn't the range, it's the missile speed (or lack thereof). Without the missile velocity watching anything try and reach its target is like watching paint dry (actually, watching paint dry might be preferable).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7413 - 2013-11-07 23:30:03 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Paladin has a damage bonus.
Vargur has a RoF bonus.
Kronos has a damage bonus.
Golem has a ...velocity bonus.

Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair".


BS launchers are considered to be "bigger" than BS turret weapons. Unbonused torps do substantially more DPS than even unbonused neutrons. For this reason, no battleship in the game has 8 launchers and a damage or RoF bonus. The Golem has 8 effective launchers, that's why it doesn't get a damage bonus.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#7414 - 2013-11-08 00:26:34 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Paladin has a damage bonus.
Vargur has a RoF bonus.
Kronos has a damage bonus.
Golem has a ...velocity bonus.

Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair".


BS launchers are considered to be "bigger" than BS turret weapons. Unbonused torps do substantially more DPS than even unbonused neutrons. For this reason, no battleship in the game has 8 launchers and a damage or RoF bonus. The Golem has 8 effective launchers, that's why it doesn't get a damage bonus.


Does the Raven State Issue, which still exists, count as "in the game"? Eight launchers, RoF bonus.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#7415 - 2013-11-08 03:42:24 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.


I like the sound of this. Would like to add 1 more thing to it though:
Falloff bonus should be double the optimal range bonus like everything else.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7416 - 2013-11-08 08:17:49 UTC
kronos is better with optimal bonus than falloff i seriously doubt blaster gonna be a good all around mission boat most would just stick to railguns.
Siginek
Newbie Friendly Industries
CeskoSlovenska Aliance
#7417 - 2013-11-08 08:34:58 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Does the Raven State Issue, which still exists, count as "in the game"? Eight launchers, RoF bonus.


So grab your State raven a go fly with it if u think your argument is valid ...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7418 - 2013-11-08 10:53:26 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Paladin has a damage bonus.
Vargur has a RoF bonus.
Kronos has a damage bonus.
Golem has a ...velocity bonus.

Yeah, but don't bother pointing that out... because it's "not fair".


BS launchers are considered to be "bigger" than BS turret weapons. Unbonused torps do substantially more DPS than even unbonused neutrons. For this reason, no battleship in the game has 8 launchers and a damage or RoF bonus. The Golem has 8 effective launchers, that's why it doesn't get a damage bonus.


Does the Raven State Issue, which still exists, count as "in the game"? Eight launchers, RoF bonus.



Unique ships are NOT balanced. You could have a 800% damage bonus on state raven that would mean nothing to eve balance.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7419 - 2013-11-08 10:55:11 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.


I like the sound of this. Would like to add 1 more thing to it though:
Falloff bonus should be double the optimal range bonus like everything else.



Tracking bonus woudl be FAR FAR weaker than range bonus n paladin.

Paladin with range bonus is the marauder recievign the LARGEST buff!!


GEt real people!! To be able to fight at MDJ range with PULSES is HUGE!


The trackign bonuses are the weak ones, because marauders are made to fight at 100km, where tracking is IRRELEVANT (you can track any npc frigate at that distance)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#7420 - 2013-11-08 11:31:57 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Remove the Paladin's optimal bonus and give it a tracking bonus like the other Marauders have. Then take the stacking penalty off the Bastion module. Just like that, short-range weapons become just slightly better in Bastion without projection on lasers becoming ridiculous.


I like the sound of this. Would like to add 1 more thing to it though:
Falloff bonus should be double the optimal range bonus like everything else.



Tracking bonus woudl be FAR FAR weaker than range bonus n paladin.

Paladin with range bonus is the marauder recievign the LARGEST buff!!


GEt real people!! To be able to fight at MDJ range with PULSES is HUGE!


The trackign bonuses are the weak ones, because marauders are made to fight at 100km, where tracking is IRRELEVANT (you can track any npc frigate at that distance)


CCP said they didn't want to remove the stacking penalty from bastion because of the paladin. The hull bonus is the problem. It can reach over 90km optimal with pulses w/o bastion. The point is to change this bonus while improving the bastion bonus by removing the stacking penalty, so that all marauders can be better. Either that or improving the range bonus on the hulls of the other marauders... I kinda like the idea though of bastion being useful on side.

Tracking has less of an impact the further out you are, agreed. This is why the paladin is crazy right now... Normally you gotta trade range for base wep tracking. It's way out of place right now compared to the rest of the marauders. If CCP finds they paladin acceptable, other marauders need their hull bonus to range increased. No reason the paladin should get that kinda range with pulse outside of bastion, while the vargur can't even overcome the machs turret dps lead with bastion