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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7321 - 2013-11-06 07:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

...
Anyways, been running some more tests on sisi. The build is the following (or slightly modified depending on mission)
[Vargur, Bastion]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Booster II
...
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II
...


snipped to save space.

I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider,

= RF gyros =
Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see:

= Changing Collision II to Burst II =
On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%.
Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission.

= More =
SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit)

drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to jump anyway.)

avoid using bastion to make use of mobility

I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD.

Ok, this is the SiSi build. This means getting access to shinies are a lot harder than on TQ. I would OBVIOUSLY be getting shinies. Not sure about the SS TCs as those are hidiously expensive but I already HAVE 3 Republic gyros and I bought a Gist X-type large though that will be ridiculously overkill. I bought it before rubicon changes announced so will probably sell it again so *might* get the SS TCs

On TQ I run two ambit extender IIs but with the implant and Bastion and 3 TCs I get 82km Falloff with just the Ambit I so thats why the change. I'll grab theBurst over the collision though as I already figured out that it'd be better.

As to the other stuff like I said in my post thats just the base build. in missions where I need to travel 20km to get to a gate I usually put on a MWD and use the depo to switch it out. I feel that with 82km falloff my dps at 40km is good enough. That is also why I am training for a paladin, to deal with sansha and blood while the vargur deals with angels, serps, mercs (oh man dat damsel <3 ), EOM and drones. THe rail cronos might do really well against EOM though. Guristas are still a bit of a pain though, not sure if Paladin because of range or vargur be cause of damage type.

Anyways do your math with that build I posted (with shinies) with either 82km falloff (3 TCs) or 79km falloff (2 TCs) or if you want see what range I can get with SS (I have the 6% faloff implant, as good as a T2 ambit and change)

The tank is fine though I did switch out a TC in blockade for a 3 module tank I have not gotten into armor except for Cargo Delivery.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#7322 - 2013-11-06 09:27:23 UTC
Where's the 4th iteration that makes these ships non-GARBAGE outside of "wannabedread" mode?

And Kronos being bumped up to a level where it's worth flying?

Did you stop giving a damn?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7323 - 2013-11-06 09:42:14 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

...
Anyways, been running some more tests on sisi. The build is the following (or slightly modified depending on mission)
[Vargur, Bastion]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Booster II
...
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II
...


snipped to save space.

I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider,

= RF gyros =
Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see:

= Changing Collision II to Burst II =
On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%.
Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission.

= More =
SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit)

drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to jump anyway.)

avoid using bastion to make use of mobility

I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD.

Ok, this is the SiSi build. This means getting access to shinies are a lot harder than on TQ. I would OBVIOUSLY be getting shinies. Not sure about the SS TCs as those are hidiously expensive but I already HAVE 3 Republic gyros and I bought a Gist X-type large though that will be ridiculously overkill. I bought it before rubicon changes announced so will probably sell it again so *might* get the SS TCs

On TQ I run two ambit extender IIs but with the implant and Bastion and 3 TCs I get 82km Falloff with just the Ambit I so thats why the change. I'll grab theBurst over the collision though as I already figured out that it'd be better.

As to the other stuff like I said in my post thats just the base build. in missions where I need to travel 20km to get to a gate I usually put on a MWD and use the depo to switch it out. I feel that with 82km falloff my dps at 40km is good enough. That is also why I am training for a paladin, to deal with sansha and blood while the vargur deals with angels, serps, mercs (oh man dat damsel <3 ), EOM and drones. THe rail cronos might do really well against EOM though. Guristas are still a bit of a pain though, not sure if Paladin because of range or vargur be cause of damage type.

Anyways do your math with that build I posted (with shinies) with either 82km falloff (3 TCs) or 79km falloff (2 TCs) or if you want see what range I can get with SS (I have the 6% faloff implant, as good as a T2 ambit and change)

The tank is fine though I did switch out a TC in blockade for a 3 module tank I have not gotten into armor except for Cargo Delivery.


You realize 3 tc, bastion and ambit are all stak nerfed and you are effetively wastign slots?


Anything more than 2 TC alongside bastion is a huge waste because of stack nerfing.

Vargur as in SISI will be INFERIOR to current vargur. The paladin wil be superior, the golem a bit superior and the Kronos.. well that is harder to decide upon (blasters wil be way weaker, but rails stronger).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#7324 - 2013-11-06 09:54:57 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

...
Anyways, been running some more tests on sisi. The build is the following (or slightly modified depending on mission)
[Vargur, Bastion]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Booster II
...
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II
...


snipped to save space.

I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider,

= RF gyros =
Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see:

= Changing Collision II to Burst II =
On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%.
Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission.

= More =
SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit)

drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to jump anyway.)

avoid using bastion to make use of mobility

I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD.

Ok, this is the SiSi build. This means getting access to shinies are a lot harder than on TQ. I would OBVIOUSLY be getting shinies. Not sure about the SS TCs as those are hidiously expensive but I already HAVE 3 Republic gyros and I bought a Gist X-type large though that will be ridiculously overkill. I bought it before rubicon changes announced so will probably sell it again so *might* get the SS TCs

On TQ I run two ambit extender IIs but with the implant and Bastion and 3 TCs I get 82km Falloff with just the Ambit I so thats why the change. I'll grab theBurst over the collision though as I already figured out that it'd be better.

As to the other stuff like I said in my post thats just the base build. in missions where I need to travel 20km to get to a gate I usually put on a MWD and use the depo to switch it out. I feel that with 82km falloff my dps at 40km is good enough. That is also why I am training for a paladin, to deal with sansha and blood while the vargur deals with angels, serps, mercs (oh man dat damsel <3 ), EOM and drones. THe rail cronos might do really well against EOM though. Guristas are still a bit of a pain though, not sure if Paladin because of range or vargur be cause of damage type.

Anyways do your math with that build I posted (with shinies) with either 82km falloff (3 TCs) or 79km falloff (2 TCs) or if you want see what range I can get with SS (I have the 6% faloff implant, as good as a T2 ambit and change)

The tank is fine though I did switch out a TC in blockade for a 3 module tank I have not gotten into armor except for Cargo Delivery.


You realize 3 tc, bastion and ambit are all stak nerfed and you are effetively wastign slots?


Anything more than 2 TC alongside bastion is a huge waste because of stack nerfing.

Vargur as in SISI will be INFERIOR to current vargur. The paladin wil be superior, the golem a bit superior and the Kronos.. well that is harder to decide upon (blasters wil be way weaker, but rails stronger).



3rd TC is still worth it.

And yes Vargur is absolutely horrid along with Kronos, a 100 ms+ slower than on live.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7325 - 2013-11-06 10:01:25 UTC
Doed wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

...
Anyways, been running some more tests on sisi. The build is the following (or slightly modified depending on mission)
[Vargur, Bastion]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Booster II
...
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II
...


snipped to save space.

I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider,

= RF gyros =
Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see:

= Changing Collision II to Burst II =
On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%.
Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission.

= More =
SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit)

drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to jump anyway.)

avoid using bastion to make use of mobility

I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD.

Ok, this is the SiSi build. This means getting access to shinies are a lot harder than on TQ. I would OBVIOUSLY be getting shinies. Not sure about the SS TCs as those are hidiously expensive but I already HAVE 3 Republic gyros and I bought a Gist X-type large though that will be ridiculously overkill. I bought it before rubicon changes announced so will probably sell it again so *might* get the SS TCs

On TQ I run two ambit extender IIs but with the implant and Bastion and 3 TCs I get 82km Falloff with just the Ambit I so thats why the change. I'll grab theBurst over the collision though as I already figured out that it'd be better.

As to the other stuff like I said in my post thats just the base build. in missions where I need to travel 20km to get to a gate I usually put on a MWD and use the depo to switch it out. I feel that with 82km falloff my dps at 40km is good enough. That is also why I am training for a paladin, to deal with sansha and blood while the vargur deals with angels, serps, mercs (oh man dat damsel <3 ), EOM and drones. THe rail cronos might do really well against EOM though. Guristas are still a bit of a pain though, not sure if Paladin because of range or vargur be cause of damage type.

Anyways do your math with that build I posted (with shinies) with either 82km falloff (3 TCs) or 79km falloff (2 TCs) or if you want see what range I can get with SS (I have the 6% faloff implant, as good as a T2 ambit and change)

The tank is fine though I did switch out a TC in blockade for a 3 module tank I have not gotten into armor except for Cargo Delivery.


You realize 3 tc, bastion and ambit are all stak nerfed and you are effetively wastign slots?


Anything more than 2 TC alongside bastion is a huge waste because of stack nerfing.

Vargur as in SISI will be INFERIOR to current vargur. The paladin wil be superior, the golem a bit superior and the Kronos.. well that is harder to decide upon (blasters wil be way weaker, but rails stronger).



3rd TC is still worth it.

And yes Vargur is absolutely horrid along with Kronos, a 100 ms+ slower than on live.



Wellt he TC is worht because it has a better bonus than the Bastion.

In fact no sane vargur pilto will bother with using a bastion module. .. hard wil be to find sane pilots using a vargur after these changes.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7326 - 2013-11-06 11:24:09 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Wellt he TC is worth because it has a better bonus than the Bastion.

In fact no sane vargur pilto will bother with using a bastion module. .. hard wil be to find sane pilots using a vargur after these changes.


Have to agree - with the vargur its impossible to marry the painfully weak arty dps and its application with bastion. Why would you use it when your dps is applied so slowlly and so inconsistently (too much or a tiny bit too little, aaaaand wait .. and ... wait). Voila, they are on top of you, or out of range for decent application. Bastion is pointless, use an AB to maintain range.

Vargur gets nothing, indeed nerfed, its basically an expensive Maelstrom using Arty.

With autocannons, it will get used as before, but its now slower - nerfed into being another crap non minmater ship.

Iv started the train for the Machariel - but I just know that minamatars role is gone, and somehow CCP just want to homegenize ship roles. Yawn


Kane Fenris
NWP
#7327 - 2013-11-06 12:11:54 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:

Iv started the train for the Machariel - but I just know that minamatars role is gone, and somehow CCP just want to homegenize ship roles. Yawn



its the curse of the tempest hull to suck....
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#7328 - 2013-11-06 13:06:15 UTC
Does anyone have the MJD skill at 5 and a marauder to put it on? If so, could you get on Sisi and tell me what your reactivation timer is?
Kane Fenris
NWP
#7329 - 2013-11-06 13:22:18 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
Does anyone have the MJD skill at 5 and a marauder to put it on? If so, could you get on Sisi and tell me what your reactivation timer is?



reactivation time does not depend on the skill activation time does
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#7330 - 2013-11-06 13:57:21 UTC
Ah, I didn't notice that. That would explain it then, lol.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7331 - 2013-11-06 15:00:59 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Wellt he TC is worth because it has a better bonus than the Bastion.

In fact no sane vargur pilto will bother with using a bastion module. .. hard wil be to find sane pilots using a vargur after these changes.


Have to agree - with the vargur its impossible to marry the painfully weak arty dps and its application with bastion. Why would you use it when your dps is applied so slowlly and so inconsistently (too much or a tiny bit too little, aaaaand wait .. and ... wait). Voila, they are on top of you, or out of range for decent application. Bastion is pointless, use an AB to maintain range.

Vargur gets nothing, indeed nerfed, its basically an expensive Maelstrom using Arty.

With autocannons, it will get used as before, but its now slower - nerfed into being another crap non minmater ship.

Iv started the train for the Machariel - but I just know that minamatars role is gone, and somehow CCP just want to homegenize ship roles. Yawn



The thing is, I think you could perform fairly well with a AC Vargur if you fit it right.

In a mission with long range targets, you can fit MJD and jump to them, then bastion and light them up.
If it's a mission with mostly close range targets, you can just fit an MWD to get to the gate, and bastion when in pocket.


Certain missions might require both, which is where the new mobile fitting structure will come in nicely.

Example - World's collide

Warp to mission, MJD towards 1st group.. Will probably put you within 40km.
Drop mobile fitting structure and bastion up.
While you're basting away, you can wait for the structure to anchor, refit MWD, and scoop structure to hold.

MWD back to gate and jump into next room...Bastion up and blast away as it's mostly close range.
Drop bastion and MWD to gate.

Jump to last pocket
Bastion and drop fitting structure.
While you're blasting you can refit MJD and scoop structure.

This last part is assuming you want to clear the other funnel of the mission.


This same tactic can be used in several other missions.
If it's a mission where everything is close range, you don't need MJD or MWD - Example - Damsel in Distress.

Some missions are best suited with just MJD as most targets are either within good range, or they're far enough away for MJD to help.


A bastion Vargur with ACs will get good enough range to hit targets while bastioned.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7332 - 2013-11-06 15:23:07 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

... [insane messing around inside mission] ...

If it's a mission where everything is close range, you don't need MJD or MWD - Example - Damsel in Distress.

Some missions are best suited with just MJD as most targets are either within good range, or they're far enough away for MJD to help.


A bastion Vargur with ACs will get good enough range to hit targets while bastioned.


Yes - you are saying what everyone else is saying, the new META is sitting still. Its totally and utterly like nothing else in the game except ... Dreads ... can you tell me how boring a structure bash actually is?

My Vargur has AB, low sig, speed, it speed tanks, it closes, aligns to run parallel to apply damge, closes to apply damage, orbits groups to mitigate damage. What you are saying is drive it like a bus .. jump, park, shoot, jump, park, shoot. Woohoo. Carebear missioners'R'us. And while parked - I will see those long range ships 'flee' into my low DPS zone.

"I sit still and apply damage, I tank heavily, I cannot move ... What am I?" Some might answer Paladin or Kronos or Golem or Vargur ... and some will answer a dread. But all will be saying the same kind of ship with the same bonuses in the same homogenous mix.

I can see why some like this, but the Nerf to the Vargur is a nail n the coffin of Minmatar gameplay - its a slug now, and its just plain rubbish. Missions are dull enough thanks.

God know what others are thinking of their respective dreads \h\h\h\h\h Marauders.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#7333 - 2013-11-06 15:26:48 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:

My Vargur has AB, low sig, speed, it speed tanks, it closes, aligns to run parallel to apply damge...


Not anymore, better get used to it. Lol

At least not as well as before.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7334 - 2013-11-06 16:55:38 UTC
Doed wrote:
Where's the 4th iteration that makes these ships non-GARBAGE outside of "wannabedread" mode?

And Kronos being bumped up to a level where it's worth flying?

Did you stop giving a damn?

I believe it was stated that further tweaking is expected after some TQ playtesting, meaning it's probably not earlier than Rubicon 1.1 or whatever.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#7335 - 2013-11-06 17:11:00 UTC  |  Edited by: m3talc0re X
I really don't understand the complaints. You wanna chase **** down, use a mach. You wanna use a super tank, brick up and kill everything, use a Vargur. They're not supposed to overlap in their roles.

Also, Kronos does not suck and with bastion mode being immune to jams from Guristas, it's even better. Vargur isn't worse now either, it's better. It can finally fit 1200mm arties. I just ran The Blockade vs Serps and it did great. About to run a Guristas mission to see how it fairs, which should be good, too.

This is what I'm using on Sisi atm:
[Vargur, 1200mm Arties copy 1 copy 1]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion Module I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#7336 - 2013-11-06 17:18:05 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
I really don't understand the complaints.


I rest my case.

The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#7337 - 2013-11-06 17:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: m3talc0re X
SOL Ranger wrote:
m3talc0re X wrote:
I really don't understand the complaints.


I rest my case.


So you're saying you have no case?

I don't understand the complaints because I don't think they're warranted.
If nothing else, the 1200mm's could maybe use a bit faster rof.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7338 - 2013-11-06 17:34:18 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

... [insane messing around inside mission] ...

If it's a mission where everything is close range, you don't need MJD or MWD - Example - Damsel in Distress.

Some missions are best suited with just MJD as most targets are either within good range, or they're far enough away for MJD to help.


A bastion Vargur with ACs will get good enough range to hit targets while bastioned.


Yes - you are saying what everyone else is saying, the new META is sitting still. Its totally and utterly like nothing else in the game except ... Dreads ... can you tell me how boring a structure bash actually is?

My Vargur has AB, low sig, speed, it speed tanks, it closes, aligns to run parallel to apply damge, closes to apply damage, orbits groups to mitigate damage. What you are saying is drive it like a bus .. jump, park, shoot, jump, park, shoot. Woohoo. Carebear missioners'R'us. And while parked - I will see those long range ships 'flee' into my low DPS zone.

"I sit still and apply damage, I tank heavily, I cannot move ... What am I?" Some might answer Paladin or Kronos or Golem or Vargur ... and some will answer a dread. But all will be saying the same kind of ship with the same bonuses in the same homogenous mix.

I can see why some like this, but the Nerf to the Vargur is a nail n the coffin of Minmatar gameplay - its a slug now, and its just plain rubbish. Missions are dull enough thanks.

God know what others are thinking of their respective dreads \h\h\h\h\h Marauders.


Which brings up some thoughts I had earlier in this thread.

Since missiles aren't effected by tracking/falloff is the main reason why golem performs well with bastion and MJD.

The rest of them don't have this advantage.
The golem performs just as well at long range, as it does at close range.

While you're on the right track, I think there's a bit of imbalance in your proposal for the other 3.
Here's my thought.

Golem - stays as is with bastion MJD. Perhaps the range bonus can be removed from stacking penalty, as this will help torps, while having no real effect on cruise.

Paladin - stationary with MJD. Bastion gives tank bonus and tracking bonus. Range isn't a problem for paladin.

Kronos - retains same mobility as without bastion, bastion gives web bonus, drone EHP and tracking bonus, retains old drone b/w and gains some hold on hull, gets bonus to armor EHP and resists. Sig is increased as penalty.

Vargur - bastion removes cap penalty from MWD. Increases shield EHP and resists. Slight damage buff. Sig radius is increased.

This is a better suggestion for a balance that works with the way the ships are generally used, fits the races, and each has a drawback.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#7339 - 2013-11-06 17:35:32 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
SOL Ranger wrote:
m3talc0re X wrote:
I really don't understand the complaints.


I rest my case.


So you're saying you have no case?

I don't understand the complaints because I don't think they're warranted.
If nothing else, the 1200mm's could maybe use a bit faster rof.


for people who dont care about efficency those ships might seem fine ....

if you ever tried to do lvl 4's in a Max|h(isk(h)) style youd see the issues
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7340 - 2013-11-06 17:45:22 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
m3talc0re X wrote:
SOL Ranger wrote:
m3talc0re X wrote:
I really don't understand the complaints.


I rest my case.


So you're saying you have no case?

I don't understand the complaints because I don't think they're warranted.
If nothing else, the 1200mm's could maybe use a bit faster rof.


for people who dont care about efficency those ships might seem fine ....

if you ever tried to do lvl 4's in a Max|h(isk(h)) style youd see the issues



Max isk/hr is a relative term.


When you factor ammo usage, cap booster usage, repair, added modules, travel time of yourself or your target, more expensive modules;
lost time due to jams, damps, and warp outs;

You can say that Marauders are relatively on par in isk/hr.

They may not complete missions as fast as other, high damage, ships; However, the fact that they optimize in these areas with bastion/MJD more so than other ships, you could argue that the Isk/hr is close to the same.


Some players always mention isk/hr, but when they do, they're speaking in specific terms of completion times and they never factor comsumable(ammo/cap boosters/etc.etc.) and fitting costs into this.