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CSM meets CCP Senior Producer Zulu about your concerns

First post First post
Author
Iceni
Doomheim
#61 - 2011-09-09 19:17:27 UTC
So lets see... the CSM said stuff (but can't tell us what it was). CCP Zulu also said stuff (but won't tell us what it was).

You guys are better at Mushroom Management than my employer, and that's saying something!

Also reassurances that the converstaion focused on FiS don't reassure me one bit. Goon's game is totally different from mine, and the majority of the player base.

So I'm sorry but I can't get even a glimmer of excitement about this thread.

My CQ door will open - Soon™

Ryunosuke Kusanagi
#62 - 2011-09-09 19:20:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryunosuke Kusanagi
Vincent Athena wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
You know, your proposals to CCP would not be covered by the NDA if you told us what they were BEFORE you talked to CCP.


We've made no secret about CSM6's desire to see more resources allocated to FiS. I'm not sure what part of our message you didn't understand from the blizzard of media coverage, podcasts, blogs, and CSM member posts during this controversy.

You can lead a poster to the internet, but you can't make him r>c>p.


The details is what I don't understand. Like how much effort you propose to be shifted, what you propose to do with incarna (have it become yet another abandoned feature?) and so on. Do you think that eve should get more funding that the income from subscriptions and PLEX sales? If the money being spent of FiS is equal to the subscriptions, is it OK for CCP to spend money on WiS, Dust, Wod?

One of the above CSM members said that there was stuff CSM proposed that cannot be talked about because it was covered by the NDA. So there must have been CSM proposals that have not been in the media coverage, since if it was in the media coverage, it would be public and not under an NDA.

All Im saying is you could have given us that information first, before it got locked up under a NDA.



This is a valid concern, and to me, it is starting to sound like "Damn CCP if they do, Damn them if they don't!" situation. While the CSM is supposed, and try, to bring valid concerns to CCP, I think, that by the nature of the game (ie. populist theory) they are kinda failing at it. I definately want FiS worked on more as of late, but, I don't want Incarna to be finished as it is now, I would like to see different CQ, I would like to see in Station Shops, etc. I don't care about the NDA, that is a non-issue, that happens all the time in games. The core problem, is what is going on within CCP (again) and what is being done about it? I would like ideally, would be more... direction from CCP. What I mean is a regular blog post stating "This is what we are working on and is slated for x amount of months, this is the progress we are making on it, etc." The last I heard about Incarna was that the other "CQ was coming out in a few months." This was back in July-ish. And couple of days ago, through a twitter feed, stating *soon (tm)* but nothing more specific than that unfortunately :(

As for FiS/WiS correlation, I have one analogy to make, Star Trek. In the course of Star Trek History (especially TNG), how many actual battles took place vs. how many scenes in the Holodeck, Captain's Quarters, Med Bay, 10 Forward, etc. actually happened? I KNOW YOU ARE GONNA SAY, "BUT THIS ISN'T STAR TREK, THIS IS EVE!" I know, I know, but every space themed Media is different, as an example. SWG is different from SW movies, SWTOR is different from SW Movies AND SWG. Star Trek is different from SW, Freelancer is different from the above, Dark Star One is different, etc. Just because they add Incarna, doesn't mean that you cannot fly in space, though integral as it may be, it's just another feature, and one that it seems to be pushed towards "incomplete" as per Faction Warfare, etc.
Gwenywell Shumuku
#63 - 2011-09-09 19:21:09 UTC
Aldan Romar wrote:
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
... they have to deliver ...

Deliver what, exactly?

The state of some people's mind at the moment would have them scream whatever CCP says, as well as scream when CCP doesn't say anything - I know what I would do as a company in that situation...

CCP is not going to turn back time and not going to abandon their business plans. They may change some details, but that's about it.

I think we should be happy that they try to listen at all.


At this point? ANYTHING at all. They arn't able to deliver even their own stuff (like, Incarna CQs) in the timeframe they set themselves.

1 room for 7 months of developement? Apocrypha was done in 5 months (yes, from announcing it to release).
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
Exxitium
#64 - 2011-09-09 19:30:19 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Hello Everyone,

The CSM just met with CCP's Senor Producer for Eve Online: CCP Zulu.

During that meeting, we discussed the players' concerns like lack of communication from the Devs with the man who has the ability to resolve them. We cannot share the details of the meeting about poor communication itself because it is heavily NDA'd so we're not allowed to communicate it, but ways to resolve your concerns have been discussed and a follow-up meeting is planned. We actually wont be able to communicate anything about that either of course.

Stay tuned...to Static FM!

Meissa Anunthiel, Vice-Chairman of CSM 6


Just fixed that for you.

C.

Lens Thirring
#65 - 2011-09-09 19:30:34 UTC
Two step wrote:
Lens Thirring wrote:
Two step wrote:
We all wish we could say more, but the rules are the rules.

You could tell us what you proposed.


No, I can't tell you what we proposed. Even things that I say to CCP can be covered by the NDA.

So this week the CSM asked for the support of players who are not actually allowed to know specifically what they're supporting, in a campaign that will anyway be carried out behind closed doors. Understood.

You woke me up for this?

Quote:

Again, our role is not to tell CCP who to hire or who to make work weekends. We are dissatisfied with the current level of staffing on FiS, and we want CCP to change that. Adding a single person would be good, switching the entire company over to working on EVE would be better. Hopefully we will end up somewhere in between.

I see. You would like "more" and don't have a specific proposal. In that case, I expect you will indeed get what you have asked for. Congratulations.

Quote:

My own ideas on what should be added are irrelevant.

Then who's ideas are relevant? You're on the CSM negotiating with CCP, right? We're not allowed to know, right? I hope somebody's ideas are relevant, but I guess they're staying way the f**k away from this empty thread.
Khira Kitamatsu
#66 - 2011-09-09 19:32:27 UTC
Oh look another carrot on a stick. Joy!

Ponies!  We need more ponies!

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2011-09-09 19:37:19 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Hello Everyone,

Amidst the recent forum activity about reports of decreased subscriber count, discontent about lack of resources allocated to "Flying In Space" (or, as we know it, Eve Online) and, despite Gridlock and Team BFF's efforts, general stagnation when it comes to fixes and improvements, the CSM just met with CCP's Senor Producer for Eve Online: CCP Zulu.

During that meeting, we discussed the players' concerns with the man who has the ability to resolve them. We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA'd, but ways to resolve your concerns have been discussed and a follow-up meeting is planned.

Stay tuned...

Meissa Anunthiel, Vice-Chairman of CSM 6


So are the minutes going to be released in 3-4 months?

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Lorren Canada
High is the Way - But all eyes are Upon the Ground
#68 - 2011-09-09 19:41:30 UTC
Nerf the NDA
Kazanir Valjean
Eighty Joule Brewery
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2011-09-09 19:44:11 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
You know, your proposals to CCP would not be covered by the NDA if you told us what they were BEFORE you talked to CCP.


We've made no secret about CSM6's desire to see more resources allocated to FiS. I'm not sure what part of our message you didn't understand from the blizzard of media coverage, podcasts, blogs, and CSM member posts during this controversy.

You can lead a poster to the internet, but you can't make him r>c>p.


The details is what I don't understand. Like how much effort you propose to be shifted, what you propose to do with incarna (have it become yet another abandoned feature?) and so on. Do you think that eve should get more funding that the income from subscriptions and PLEX sales? If the money being spent of FiS is equal to the subscriptions, is it OK for CCP to spend money on WiS, Dust, Wod?


It seems likely that they aren't at that stage yet. A cursory review of CCP's financial statements shows that the vast majority of EVE's income is going towards developing things that are not spaceships. There is a lot of "extra" money being thrown into that stuff ALSO -- obviously without Dust, Carbon, WoD, and Incarna CCP wouldn't have millions and millions of dollars in lines of credit or venture capital to be spending on new code. But a huge portion of the "money from EVE subs" is paying for developing stuff that is not "EVE" as we know it.

The CSM is probably just at the stage where they get a commitment from CCP that this is going to change for the next several expansions, without any discussion of monetary details. Discussion of numbers of assigned development teams is much more likely, but obviously more vague than what you're looking for. Furthermore, it is likely that the CSM didn't have any such metrics in mind going into their meeting, or they would have talked about them in more detail. :P
HaxTis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-09-09 19:47:46 UTC
this is such a pointless thread on the part of the csm. i think your just trying to stay relivant in this word of forums. as a long term player i have never seen you or heard of you. so how you got that position is pretty clear. but to make a thread where all you basically say is well we talked to ccp but cant talk about the talk, is a very pointless waste of time. thank you for pointing out your uslessness and the csm complete and utter failure
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2011-09-09 19:51:41 UTC
Guys, there is nothing any of us can say at this point more than what we've said.

But know that we are working hard on your behalf to get CCP to address your concerns regarding FiS.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Takamori Maruyama
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2011-09-09 19:53:21 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Guys, there is nothing any of us can say at this point more than what we've said.

But know that we are working hard on your behalf to get CCP to address your concerns regarding FiS.


I know there is the contract etc etc...

But still , its a hell of a cblock

Loud and clear...

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#73 - 2011-09-09 19:55:53 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Guys, there is nothing any of us can say at this point more than what we've said.

But know that we are working hard on your behalf to get CCP to address your concerns regarding FiS.


It's better to give us what information that you can than no information at all. I trust you will once again reiterate to CCP that clear honest communications with their customers will always yield better results than evasion, spin or turtling up.



PS It must be frustrating to have to reiterate this same basic lesson over and over again...

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Dex Ironmind
#74 - 2011-09-09 19:55:56 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Guys, there is nothing any of us can say at this point more than what we've said.

But know that we are working hard on your behalf to get CCP to address your concerns regarding FiS.


Your efforts are certainly appreciated Trebor. Keep it up. Hopefully they will actually EXPAND FIS with this "EXPANSION," and not merely PATCH it.

By the way, can you express a bit of concern with them about this "REDISTRIBUTION" concept. You guys will only jump out of the frying pan into the fire if they push that nonsense. EXPAND, don't REDISTRIBUTE!!!

Thanks again!!
Dex was here. Cool
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
Exxitium
#75 - 2011-09-09 19:56:01 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Guys, there is nothing any of us can say at this point more than what we've said.

Which wasn't anything.

But know that we are working hard on your behalf to get CCP to address your concerns regarding FiS.


This concept of 'communication' - it doesn't translate into Icelandic well?

C.

Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2011-09-09 20:01:13 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Guys, there is nothing any of us can say at this point more than what we've said.

But know that we are working hard on your behalf to get CCP to address your concerns regarding FiS.



the work you guys do is great on the whole. but posting a teaser topic rather than the actual outcome just comes over as a bit lame.

i wanna see results from ccp, not teasers about how 'we have chatted'. been told enough CCP bull over the years there words mean nothing, its there actions that count

OMG when can i get a pic here

Sister Bliss
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#77 - 2011-09-09 20:02:04 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Guys, there is nothing any of us can say at this point more than what we've said.

But know that we are working hard on your behalf to get CCP to address your concerns regarding FiS.


Lobbying for CCP to focus on FIS is virtually too late. The pertinent time was last July when CCP announced their plans for 2011 which (disgracefully) had nothing to do with FIS at all.

It's disappointing to see it has taken over a year for everyone (and the CSM) to understand the gravest concerns have nothing to do with Barbie or NeX. The issue is and always has been broken core gameplay of the FIS variety. Fussing with emergency summits to tackle reaction to NeX garbage is like rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#78 - 2011-09-09 20:10:46 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Hello Everyone,

Amidst the recent forum activity about reports of decreased subscriber count, discontent about lack of resources allocated to "Flying In Space" (or, as we know it, Eve Online) and, despite Gridlock and Team BFF's efforts, general stagnation when it comes to fixes and improvements, the CSM just met with CCP's Senor Producer for Eve Online: CCP Zulu.

During that meeting, we discussed the players' concerns with the man who has the ability to resolve them. We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA'd, but ways to resolve your concerns have been discussed and a follow-up meeting is planned.

Stay tuned...

Meissa Anunthiel, Vice-Chairman of CSM 6



Let me guess: They will do something to appease to 0.0 whiners, right? Me faltan palabras para expresar mi emoción. Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#79 - 2011-09-09 20:11:35 UTC
HaxTis wrote:
this is such a pointless thread on the part of the csm. i think your just trying to stay relivant in this word of forums. as a long term player i have never seen you or heard of you. so how you got that position is pretty clear. but to make a thread where all you basically say is well we talked to ccp but cant talk about the talk, is a very pointless waste of time. thank you for pointing out your uslessness and the csm complete and utter failure


And if they DIDN'T say that they had just concluded a meeting with CCP, than everyone would be screaming that the CSM is impotent and sitting around doing nothing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying "We've had a meeting, we're writing it up. Stay tuned" .

As much as I respect the CSM for their efforts and for putting up with all the player hate while they try to drag CCP's focus back onto spaceships, at the same time there is a certain irony about all this populist demand for new content in a game that sells itself as a sandbox, rather than a vehicle for ongoing content deployment.

As I listened to Mittani speak during the recent FunkyBacon radio special, I couldn't help but think - "Really? The real issue that is stagnating nullsec is lack of a reason to fight?"

As a lifelong lowsec enthusiast and Faction Warfare veteran, this was a little odd to hear. CCP hasn't given us any updates in years, and the scene is still alive and active. Militia pilots have never waited for added content to keep them from getting out and into a fight - a tiny bit of RP zest and some lasting friendships are enough to keep us dropping fleets of all variants and sizes on each other week after week - its a shame the jaded nullsec vets don't have the same positive attitude and need mawr carrots to march onward.

Also mentioned was how much of a pain it is to deal with Sovereignty changes, the boring nature of siege warfare (the structure popping kind), etc. Again, all reasons why those of us in militia have always enjoyed the scene - we have all the fun of extremely talented pew pilots in gangs of all sizes, without any of the headaches Mittani spoke of. It is also why most of the miltia vets who "graduate" into an alliance eventually get bored and come back home.

So yes, this is a bit of a promo for the FW scene, but also a call to players to take control themselves - come up with new things to try, pick a fight with someone new, make it senseless and fun - you DONT have to let CCP keep you from having a good time!

Here you can see what we've been up to in FW!! You know, the feature that was "abandoned" and "died" years ago :)

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2011-09-09 20:16:11 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Its really funny how the CSM brags how influential you all are in your blogs but when you get called on it on the forums, suddenly you dont have any power


I am known throughout EVE for my utter lack of power, influence, or any understanding of politics. You got me!

~hi~