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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7101 - 2013-11-01 13:55:45 UTC
Tsukinosuke wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Tsukinosuke wrote:
125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!?

Let me counter with another question: if they gave it to you, would you have any reason to use another ship for the same thing, whatever you're doing? If the answer is no then the answer to your question is yes.


there are a lot of requirements to fly it, do you know how long you have to wait to fly a marauder-sentry ship? " When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot neither be remote assisted or remote assist in any way" it will give a bit balance? pvp and fleet usage may be nerfed a little bit.. Roll (triage mode off)

That bit is new! Where is it written that Marauders cannot *give* remote assist while in bastion?

Since I fly Marauders and use sentry drones, I know how long does it take to train all this stuff. And skill requirements are what they are, skill requirements. They allow you to use given gear at certain level of proficiency and that's it. They do not entitle you to have given level of performance everytime, everywhere with everything you use.

BTW, you did not answer my question.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#7102 - 2013-11-01 14:05:56 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Tsukinosuke wrote:
125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!?

yes. you'd out damage, out range, out track and out tank pirate ships. currently pirate ships at least out damage marauders.


Only this is not correct. You could field 5 sentry drones on at least the vargur and kronos, and their raw dmg would not exceed the pirate alternatives.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7103 - 2013-11-01 14:14:50 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before.

You got me curious. I just did fly Vargur side by side on SiSi and on TQ. Same ship, same skills, same implants. I admit that I did not measure time very precisely but with MWD on in about minute (time to cool down MJD) Vargur on TQ covered about 55km while on SiSi it went 50km. When Vargur on TQ reached 100km mark, on SiSi it was at about 88km.

The only massive thing I see so far is your overuse of the Caps Lock key.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7104 - 2013-11-01 14:19:05 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before.

You got me curious. I just did fly Vargur side by side on SiSi and on TQ. Same ship, same skills, same implants. I admit that I did not measure time very precisely but with MWD on in about minute (time to cool down MJD) Vargur on TQ covered about 55km while on SiSi it went 50km. When Vargur on TQ reached 100km mark, on SiSi it was at about 88km.

The only massive thing I see so far is your overuse of the Caps Lock key.



Just plug the numbers on EFT! It already has both marauders type son it.

The ship got slow enough !


Stop with your " I felt nothign wrong".. numbers.. numbers do not lie!!! The base speed was hugely nerfed and the decrease in mass is nowhere near 20%

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7105 - 2013-11-01 14:20:38 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Tsukinosuke wrote:
125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!?

yes. you'd out damage, out range, out track and out tank pirate ships. currently pirate ships at least out damage marauders.


Only this is not correct. You could field 5 sentry drones on at least the vargur and kronos, and their raw dmg would not exceed the pirate alternatives.

you mean all of 40 damage the mach has over a vargur at max skillpoints? lol. lets not forget that the marauder can fit more omni tracking, normal tracking and have far greater range AND fit more drone range mods over the mach.

you would be outdamaging the mach by a very large margin.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7106 - 2013-11-01 14:24:20 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before.

You got me curious. I just did fly Vargur side by side on SiSi and on TQ. Same ship, same skills, same implants. I admit that I did not measure time very precisely but with MWD on in about minute (time to cool down MJD) Vargur on TQ covered about 55km while on SiSi it went 50km. When Vargur on TQ reached 100km mark, on SiSi it was at about 88km.

The only massive thing I see so far is your overuse of the Caps Lock key.



Just plug the numbers on EFT! It already has both marauders type son it.

The ship got slow enough !


Stop with your " I felt nothign wrong".. numbers.. numbers do not lie!!! The base speed was hugely nerfed and the decrease in mass is nowhere near 20%

this just in folks! real world results are not valid. only eft numbers matter.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7107 - 2013-11-01 14:31:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:


Speaking of, had any WH dweller commented on marauders' performance out there? I'm genuinely curious.

I live in a c5 and honestly I can think of a Lot of fun things to doowith the new marauders. it can probably solo c5 sites and even help clean up cruisers and the like in cap escalations. it will do great as the new c1-4 'dreads' esp to kill capshipless poses. paladins and ral kronos and even cruise golems will do very well esp in c4s and vargurs will be usefull in c5s.

note the same precautions should be taken as woth cap ships as they are expensive so lock down holes/scouts etc. they will prolly run on asbs and the armor variant. golems will also do good in c5 thinking about it now (loki support + asbs)

I actually already experimented with a rr vargur as part of a t3 fleet for c3 and c4 sites. will do decent in c4 with arties now.



Test in sisi, they blow up in between repair cycles (at least the armor tanked ones) when you get bad luck timed bursts of damage.


IF they had a much larger EHP pool, then they might indeed have a role in wormhoels as solo site runners.

what class wh was that in? what was the fit? did you have at least 2 1600 plates fitted? were you running armor links? (mandatory in c5) I will see about testing the vargur in sisi this weekend thoigh I do not have access to links :(



Tried in Paladin in a C5, but I did not had a slave set.

YEt, they a re still not there at the level they woudl need to be to risk them on a C5. As I said they woudl need to have another 1k, 1200k n their tanking layers.


thats not what I asked now was it? what was the fit? did you have a command ship giving you boosts aka links? if you did not then your test was a failure and invalid.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#7108 - 2013-11-01 14:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Anize Oramara wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Tsukinosuke wrote:
125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!?

yes. you'd out damage, out range, out track and out tank pirate ships. currently pirate ships at least out damage marauders.


Only this is not correct. You could field 5 sentry drones on at least the vargur and kronos, and their raw dmg would not exceed the pirate alternatives.

you mean all of 40 damage the mach has over a vargur at max skillpoints? lol. lets not forget that the marauder can fit more omni tracking, normal tracking and have far greater range AND fit more drone range mods over the mach.

you would be outdamaging the mach by a very large margin.

You should double check this, don't have access to EFT atm or I would post numbers. Ensure implants, ammo, dmg upgrades, guns, and skills are the same. Make sure u add drones to the mach as well as the vargur. As to your comment on slots. Shield mach gets options for more ddas which fits the theme of the mach having more dmg while the vargur has better tracking
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7109 - 2013-11-01 14:49:42 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The ship is MASSIVELY slower than before!!! Vargur was almost 20% faster before.

You got me curious. I just did fly Vargur side by side on SiSi and on TQ. Same ship, same skills, same implants. I admit that I did not measure time very precisely but with MWD on in about minute (time to cool down MJD) Vargur on TQ covered about 55km while on SiSi it went 50km. When Vargur on TQ reached 100km mark, on SiSi it was at about 88km.

The only massive thing I see so far is your overuse of the Caps Lock key.



Just plug the numbers on EFT! It already has both marauders type son it.

The ship got slow enough !


Stop with your " I felt nothign wrong".. numbers.. numbers do not lie!!! The base speed was hugely nerfed and the decrease in mass is nowhere near 20%

this just in folks! real world results are not valid. only eft numbers matter.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You beat me to it. What is the smiley for facepalm?
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7110 - 2013-11-01 15:13:02 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Tsukinosuke wrote:
125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!?

yes. you'd out damage, out range, out track and out tank pirate ships. currently pirate ships at least out damage marauders.


Only this is not correct. You could field 5 sentry drones on at least the vargur and kronos, and their raw dmg would not exceed the pirate alternatives.

you mean all of 40 damage the mach has over a vargur at max skillpoints? lol. lets not forget that the marauder can fit more omni tracking, normal tracking and have far greater range AND fit more drone range mods over the mach.

you would be outdamaging the mach by a very large margin.

You should double check this, don't have access to EFT atm or I would post numbers. Ensure implants, ammo, dmg upgrades, guns, and skills are the same. Make sure u add drones to the mach as well as the vargur. As to your comment on slots. Shield mach gets options for more ddas which fits the theme of the mach having more dmg while the vargur has better tracking

this was done with eft. no implants. all lv5 skills. drones added on both (5 for vagur 4 for mach) bastion vargur requires less tank. fitted dcu and te on mach to help make up for bastion. vargur has more mids and util highs in addition to more free mids from bastion tank. the difference is 40 dps with the vargur having far superior tank, range, tracking including drone range and tracking and dps

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#7111 - 2013-11-01 15:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Anize Oramara wrote:

this was done with eft. no implants. all lv5 skills. drones added on both (5 for vagur 4 for mach) bastion vargur requires less tank. fitted dcu and te on mach to help make up for bastion. vargur has more mids and util highs in addition to more free mids from bastion tank. the difference is 40 dps with the vargur having far superior tank, range, tracking including drone range and tracking and dps

Ah I thought you were saying the vargur was out dmging the mach by 40 pts, but its the other way around.

So 5 sentry does doesn't surpass the max dmg. Let's take the discussion a bit further. Not knowing ur fit or having access to EFT, I would imagine the 40 dmg difference is around a 4-5% dmg difference. I would also estimate that the difference in gun dmg alone is around 9.5% in favor of the mach. The mach then can take advantage of using its mobility to deal more damage, and given the number of lows can makes its raw drone dmg superior. Drone dmg via sentry can also be reduced by killing the drones and is more situational.

Overall the mach can still top out higher than the vargur if it want to via the number of lows. The mach gains substantially more mobility and turret dps as well. Completely outclassed? Really?

Sentry drones would also play well with the optional highs and stationary playstyle
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7112 - 2013-11-01 15:56:23 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:

You beat me to it. What is the smiley for facepalm?



Facepalm is your lack of capability of understanding how to comapre things. Or how pahtewtically youa re trying to troll people swith lies in this thread.


You cannot fly both vargurs side by side, and you did not stop wathc measured their results, threfore your imrpessiosn are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!!!!


MATH is the only truth in universe!! If you cannot comprehend that you shoudl not be in a balance thread on a ship of excel online!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7113 - 2013-11-01 16:19:49 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
Kagura Nikon wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:

You beat me to it. What is the smiley for facepalm?



Facepalm is your lack of capability of understanding how to comapre things. Or how pahtewtically youa re trying to troll people swith lies in this thread.


You cannot fly both vargurs side by side, and you did not stop wathc measured their results, threfore your imrpessiosn are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!!!!


MATH is the only truth in universe!! If you cannot comprehend that you shoudl not be in a balance thread on a ship of excel online!

I cannot launch both clients at the same time? That's something new to me...

Lies? I described simple experiment. Something which is verifiable and repeatable. If you don't believe my numbers you can repeat the experiment by yourself and post your results as I posted mine. This is what differentiates science from voodoo.

Edit:
Eh, what the heck! You wanted EFT numbers, here you go.
For this pilot, with his skills and his implants Vargur with MWD runs on TQ with speed 1127.51m/s and on SiSi with speed 1007.43m/s. Multiplying it by 60 seconds we get that on TQ Vargur goes 67.6km in one minute while on SiSi it goes 60.5km in the same time.

For the record, optimal range of 800mm autocannons before any bonuses are applied is 6km.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#7114 - 2013-11-01 16:45:45 UTC
All this mudslinging and capslocking and overuse of exclamation points because of.. 7.1km traveled in a Vargur?

Is this what we've devolved into in this thread?

For shame.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7115 - 2013-11-01 16:57:56 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Is this what we've devolved into in this thread?

Someone observed that since thread goes about such nitpicking on details it's good indicator that there isn't anymore any major design flaw.

I find it hard not to agree with.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7116 - 2013-11-01 17:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Is this what we've devolved into in this thread?

I think this thread devolved long before that... With less than 3 weeks until Rubicon, I think it's a foregone conclusion that the last iteration is final at this point. And barring some serious issues with play balance, I don't think we can reasonably expect to see any minor tweaks until the next quarterly update (if at all).

I for one welcome our new Marauder overlords. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7117 - 2013-11-01 17:19:25 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

this was done with eft. no implants. all lv5 skills. drones added on both (5 for vagur 4 for mach) bastion vargur requires less tank. fitted dcu and te on mach to help make up for bastion. vargur has more mids and util highs in addition to more free mids from bastion tank. the difference is 40 dps with the vargur having far superior tank, range, tracking including drone range and tracking and dps

Ah I thought you were saying the vargur was out dmging the mach by 40 pts, but its the other way around.

So 5 sentry does doesn't surpass the max dmg. Let's take the discussion a bit further. Not knowing ur fit or having access to EFT, I would imagine the 40 dmg difference is around a 4-5% dmg difference. I would also estimate that the difference in gun dmg alone is around 9.5% in favor of the mach. The mach then can take advantage of using its mobility to deal more damage, and given the number of lows can makes its raw drone dmg superior. Drone dmg via sentry can also be reduced by killing the drones and is more situational.

Overall the mach can still top out higher than the vargur if it want to via the number of lows. The mach gains substantially more mobility and turret dps as well. Completely outclassed? Really?

Sentry drones would also play well with the optional highs and stationary playstyle

No see you completely missed the point. 40dps is nothing when you take into account that the mach will have next to NO damage application modules while the vargur will have tons. This is what I hate about EFT warriors, they only care about dps without taking into account the QUALITY of that dps. The vargur will far surpass the damage applicaiton of a mach if it has 5 sentries and that means that that 40dps means nothing as you are doing tons more REAL WORLD damage as you have far better drones from tracking and range modules and your guns quality is higher as well.

So just to be clear, although the vargur does 40 dps less it APPLIES more damage than the mach meaning it will outclass the mach because IN ADDITION to near identical raw damage it now has better applicaiton, better tank and loot/salvage capability.

That means it outclasses the Mach. 5 sentries is a very very bad idea.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7118 - 2013-11-01 17:22:15 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
[quote=hmskrecik]
MATH is the only truth in universe!! If you cannot comprehend that you shoudl not be in a balance thread on a ship of excel online!


Well it sure as heck isn't spelling Smile

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7119 - 2013-11-01 17:34:07 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
No see you completely missed the point. 40dps is nothing when you take into account that the mach will have next to NO damage application modules while the vargur will have tons. This is what I hate about EFT warriors, they only care about dps without taking into account the QUALITY of that dps. The vargur will far surpass the damage applicaiton of a mach if it has 5 sentries and that means that that 40dps means nothing as you are doing tons more REAL WORLD damage as you have far better drones from tracking and range modules and your guns quality is higher as well.

So just to be clear, although the vargur does 40 dps less it APPLIES more damage than the mach meaning it will outclass the mach because IN ADDITION to near identical raw damage it now has better applicaiton, better tank and loot/salvage capability.

That means it outclasses the Mach. 5 sentries is a very very bad idea.

Anize, I think you're not quite right here.

The problem is that stacked bastion does not add much to range. With 2xTE + 1xTC I used to fly with we're talking about 65km vs. maybe 70km of optimal+falloff.

Actual improvement of damage application I see in such situation is that when bastion is activated and I already have a ton of range bonus, I can unscript TC or script it for tracking but its effect is harder to measure.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#7120 - 2013-11-01 18:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Anize Oramara wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

this was done with eft. no implants. all lv5 skills. drones added on both (5 for vagur 4 for mach) bastion vargur requires less tank. fitted dcu and te on mach to help make up for bastion. vargur has more mids and util highs in addition to more free mids from bastion tank. the difference is 40 dps with the vargur having far superior tank, range, tracking including drone range and tracking and dps

Ah I thought you were saying the vargur was out dmging the mach by 40 pts, but its the other way around.

So 5 sentry does doesn't surpass the max dmg. Let's take the discussion a bit further. Not knowing ur fit or having access to EFT, I would imagine the 40 dmg difference is around a 4-5% dmg difference. I would also estimate that the difference in gun dmg alone is around 9.5% in favor of the mach. The mach then can take advantage of using its mobility to deal more damage, and given the number of lows can makes its raw drone dmg superior. Drone dmg via sentry can also be reduced by killing the drones and is more situational.

Overall the mach can still top out higher than the vargur if it want to via the number of lows. The mach gains substantially more mobility and turret dps as well. Completely outclassed? Really?

Sentry drones would also play well with the optional highs and stationary playstyle

No see you completely missed the point. 40dps is nothing when you take into account that the mach will have next to NO damage application modules while the vargur will have tons. This is what I hate about EFT warriors, they only care about dps without taking into account the QUALITY of that dps. The vargur will far surpass the damage applicaiton of a mach if it has 5 sentries and that means that that 40dps means nothing as you are doing tons more REAL WORLD damage as you have far better drones from tracking and range modules and your guns quality is higher as well.

So just to be clear, although the vargur does 40 dps less it APPLIES more damage than the mach meaning it will outclass the mach because IN ADDITION to near identical raw damage it now has better applicaiton, better tank and loot/salvage capability.

That means it outclasses the Mach. 5 sentries is a very very bad idea.


this is incorrect. I know we have had numerous discussions within this thread, but you aren't giving mobility and stacking penalties their proper weight and you have shown that in the recent fits you have posted.

5% is not anywhere near identical esp when you consider that most of the reason the diff is only 5ish percent bc of sentry drones. Things that are situationally beneficial and can be destroyed. Mach maintains roughly a 9.5% dmg inc in turret dps and has the mobility to midigate it's tacking losses or increase dmg by closing distance. Not to mention, it synergizes much better w/ RR. 5 sentry drones on the vargur will not replace the mach. Also, if I recall you made a post a little earlier that a linked a few pages back that said something along the lines of "mach clears missions faster, or so I've been told". Do you / have you ever even owned a mach on tq? Do you know how to properly use mobility to inc application?

Also 5% is a significant difference. Heck no one would use dmg implants if it weren't. And we aren't even talking about a constant 5%.