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Nullsec Moon-Goo Distribution

Author
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#1 - 2013-10-30 11:26:05 UTC
Lots of people have been discussing the potential threat of the new Siphon units, in particular to small corps mining moons in lowsec. It might well be that this could be the case. But i'm interested in using them for what CCP is hinting at, stealing stuff directly from the Alliances! Cool As a member of a wormhole corp, access to random areas of null sec are fairly common.

With that in mind, i've come to realise my knowledge of the distribution of the various nullsec moons is extremely limited. They've dominated the valuable moons for a long time now, and such information can be found realitively easily with good old google. But, thats hardly helpful when i'm exiting a wormhole into a completely random corner of the universe.

So, does any enterprising capsuleer have a flashy graphic map that clearly displays the locations of the Alliances main moons? Also, do they tend to be grouped together in populated areas, or seperate and isolated (or both!). A general feel of how Alliances protect their moon-mining POS' is what i'm trying to get at here.

And finally, how does someone actually steal something from a POS considering the siphon needs to be 50km from the POS, well within the range of the guns? Any significant attack on the POS itself is likely to draw the attention of the local Alliance pretty damn fast, and everyone knows those damn ****-stars can be a right pain in the arse. Shocked

Regardless, i think they're going to be alot of fun!

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  

handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#2 - 2013-10-30 11:39:05 UTC
Some alliances and Coalitions have pretty complete moon maps, I think you summed up the reason they should keep them for themselves quite well.

Baddest poster ever

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#3 - 2013-10-30 11:45:01 UTC
There was a good article on www.themittani.com about this some time ago.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-10-30 11:46:39 UTC
lol at this guy who thinks that the publicly available information such as the Dotlan maps are accurate and complete (and that the data therein hasn't been deliberately falsified to confound hostile intel).

To your other point, dropping a siphon will be trivial since POS mods have a slow lock time, you can drop, deploy and warp off in any reasonably agile ship long before anything starts lighting you up.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#5 - 2013-10-30 12:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen Solarus
Scatim Helicon wrote:
lol at this guy who thinks that the publicly available information such as the Dotlan maps are accurate and complete (and that the data therein hasn't been deliberately falsified to confound hostile intel).

To your other point, dropping a siphon will be trivial since POS mods have a slow lock time, you can drop, deploy and warp off in any reasonably agile ship long before anything starts lighting you up.


Good to know! That was just one of various sites i posted as an example. Is it likely that most public resources for moon information will be inaccurate for the reasons you state? Are there any that are reliable and up-to-date, or is this sort of information closely guarded by the null sec Alliances for obvious reasons?

Erotica 1 wrote:
There was a good article on www.themittani.com about this some time ago.


You're direct link to the site is a tad unhelpful, but i assume you're refering to this. Interesting, though mostly focusing on the fountain. Still, every little helps.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  

Aurthes
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2013-10-30 15:22:52 UTC
Considering how much work it is to scan thousands of moons, I don't see anyone wanting to share accurate data for no possible benefit. The very same alliances that you want to siphon goo from have no incentive to share this data.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#7 - 2013-10-30 15:52:47 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Lots of people have been discussing the potential threat of the new Siphon units, in particular to small corps mining moons in lowsec. It might well be that this could be the case. But i'm interested in using them for what CCP is hinting at, stealing stuff directly from the Alliances! Cool As a member of a wormhole corp, access to random areas of null sec are fairly common.

With that in mind, i've come to realise my knowledge of the distribution of the various nullsec moons is extremely limited. They've dominated the valuable moons for a long time now, and such information can be found realitively easily with good old google. But, thats hardly helpful when i'm exiting a wormhole into a completely random corner of the universe.

So, does any enterprising capsuleer have a flashy graphic map that clearly displays the locations of the Alliances main moons? Also, do they tend to be grouped together in populated areas, or seperate and isolated (or both!). A general feel of how Alliances protect their moon-mining POS' is what i'm trying to get at here.

And finally, how does someone actually steal something from a POS considering the siphon needs to be 50km from the POS, well within the range of the guns? Any significant attack on the POS itself is likely to draw the attention of the local Alliance pretty damn fast, and everyone knows those damn ****-stars can be a right pain in the arse. Shocked

Regardless, i think they're going to be alot of fun!
Good luck!
I'd be incredibly surprised if a Siphon itself doesn't give some sort of warning to the alliance holding it and I it's going to have a tiny EHP (like 100k or so). So the chances of getting one it, without the guns killing you, it staying up long enough to steal more than it costs, then you successfully looting it and moving that to the market? Slim...

And look at the reward. Let's take Dysprosium.
Every hour it steals around 2.4m isk worth (3m loss to the alliance as 20% is waste). It taps out in 20 hours at around 48m worth (60m loss to the alliance). So this means you have to have it up for over 4 hours, and get the product shipped, just to break even. Not to mention, it's got no locks on it, so anyone can steal all your loot!

Basically it's all exciting right now because everyone's like "oh alliances are rich, and this steals from alliances, thus I WILL BE RICH!", while they don't about how alliances are rich because they hold thousands of moons.

I give this a week before people are simply bored of replacing them for no gain.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#8 - 2013-10-30 15:53:48 UTC
Posting in a "I'm too lazy to actually do the work so..." Thread.

Signature removed - CCP Eterne

Prince Kobol
#9 - 2013-10-30 15:59:41 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
Lots of people have been discussing the potential threat of the new Siphon units, in particular to small corps mining moons in lowsec. It might well be that this could be the case. But i'm interested in using them for what CCP is hinting at, stealing stuff directly from the Alliances! Cool As a member of a wormhole corp, access to random areas of null sec are fairly common.

With that in mind, i've come to realise my knowledge of the distribution of the various nullsec moons is extremely limited. They've dominated the valuable moons for a long time now, and such information can be found realitively easily with good old google. But, thats hardly helpful when i'm exiting a wormhole into a completely random corner of the universe.

So, does any enterprising capsuleer have a flashy graphic map that clearly displays the locations of the Alliances main moons? Also, do they tend to be grouped together in populated areas, or seperate and isolated (or both!). A general feel of how Alliances protect their moon-mining POS' is what i'm trying to get at here.

And finally, how does someone actually steal something from a POS considering the siphon needs to be 50km from the POS, well within the range of the guns? Any significant attack on the POS itself is likely to draw the attention of the local Alliance pretty damn fast, and everyone knows those damn ****-stars can be a right pain in the arse. Shocked

Regardless, i think they're going to be alot of fun!
Good luck!
I'd be incredibly surprised if a Siphon itself doesn't give some sort of warning to the alliance holding it and I it's going to have a tiny EHP (like 100k or so). So the chances of getting one it, without the guns killing you, it staying up long enough to steal more than it costs, then you successfully looting it and moving that to the market? Slim...

And look at the reward. Let's take Dysprosium.
Every hour it steals around 2.4m isk worth (3m loss to the alliance as 20% is waste). It taps out in 20 hours at around 48m worth (60m loss to the alliance). So this means you have to have it up for over 4 hours, and get the product shipped, just to break even. Not to mention, it's got no locks on it, so anyone can steal all your loot!

Basically it's all exciting right now because everyone's like "oh alliances are rich, and this steals from alliances, thus I WILL BE RICH!", while they don't about how alliances are rich because they hold thousands of moons.

I give this a week before people are simply bored of replacing them for no gain.


That is why I have been saying that pos siphon units at the very very most might provide a very slight annoyance for a couple of people in null sec alliances.

The other hand is that those small corps who are making a few hundred mil per month from the low sec moon pos's.. well you can kiss them goodbye.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#10 - 2013-10-30 16:03:23 UTC
Aurthes wrote:
Considering how much work it is to scan thousands of moons, I don't see anyone wanting to share accurate data for no possible benefit. The very same alliances that you want to siphon goo from have no incentive to share this data.

I think there were plans to share the data on ncdot and pl moon locations.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#11 - 2013-10-30 16:16:19 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

I'd be incredibly surprised if a Siphon itself doesn't give some sort of warning to the alliance holding it and I it's going to have a tiny EHP (like 100k or so). So the chances of getting one it, without the guns killing you, it staying up long enough to steal more than it costs, then you successfully looting it and moving that to the market? Slim...

And look at the reward. Let's take Dysprosium.
Every hour it steals around 2.4m isk worth (3m loss to the alliance as 20% is waste). It taps out in 20 hours at around 48m worth (60m loss to the alliance). So this means you have to have it up for over 4 hours, and get the product shipped, just to break even. Not to mention, it's got no locks on it, so anyone can steal all your loot!.


Well, depends, remember they aren't targeted by the guns automatically, requires someone manning them to do that. So you could feasibly sweep through an area and deploy them on selected targets. You can deploy more than one remember, slapping up 10 would increase the amount you're stealing immensely. Assuming i'm hitting a moon-goo POS pretty close to my wormhole exit, getting the goods back to market would be a piece of cake!

But, i'm admitting my biggest obstacle is my lack of available knowledge regarding null sec moon-goo operations. I'm assuming they're not particularly time intensive processes that require alot of constant hands-on attention. They're setup to run, and people come back when needed. Does this mean they'd be more vulnerable to this sort of hit and run steal attack?

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  

Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
#12 - 2013-10-30 16:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Himnos Altar
Lucas Kell wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
Lots of people have been discussing the potential threat of the new Siphon units, in particular to small corps mining moons in lowsec. It might well be that this could be the case. But i'm interested in using them for what CCP is hinting at, stealing stuff directly from the Alliances! Cool As a member of a wormhole corp, access to random areas of null sec are fairly common.

With that in mind, i've come to realise my knowledge of the distribution of the various nullsec moons is extremely limited. They've dominated the valuable moons for a long time now, and such information can be found realitively easily with good old google. But, thats hardly helpful when i'm exiting a wormhole into a completely random corner of the universe.

So, does any enterprising capsuleer have a flashy graphic map that clearly displays the locations of the Alliances main moons? Also, do they tend to be grouped together in populated areas, or seperate and isolated (or both!). A general feel of how Alliances protect their moon-mining POS' is what i'm trying to get at here.

And finally, how does someone actually steal something from a POS considering the siphon needs to be 50km from the POS, well within the range of the guns? Any significant attack on the POS itself is likely to draw the attention of the local Alliance pretty damn fast, and everyone knows those damn ****-stars can be a right pain in the arse. Shocked

Regardless, i think they're going to be alot of fun!
Good luck!
I'd be incredibly surprised if a Siphon itself doesn't give some sort of warning to the alliance holding it and I it's going to have a tiny EHP (like 100k or so). So the chances of getting one it, without the guns killing you, it staying up long enough to steal more than it costs, then you successfully looting it and moving that to the market? Slim...

And look at the reward. Let's take Dysprosium.
Every hour it steals around 2.4m isk worth (3m loss to the alliance as 20% is waste). It taps out in 20 hours at around 48m worth (60m loss to the alliance). So this means you have to have it up for over 4 hours, and get the product shipped, just to break even. Not to mention, it's got no locks on it, so anyone can steal all your loot!

Basically it's all exciting right now because everyone's like "oh alliances are rich, and this steals from alliances, thus I WILL BE RICH!", while they don't about how alliances are rich because they hold thousands of moons.

I give this a week before people are simply bored of replacing them for no gain.


Disclaimer: I have not done the math to see how much this thing will cost

This all holds true. UNTIL during a Sov/coalition war breaks out, and the two sides offensively drop siphons on every single tower the other side has. These units have the capability of weakening alliance finances during a war. It may not be enough to be a major factor on its own, but it may have an effect on morale if SR programs lose a little steam.

Granted, I may be over thinking this.

But let me give you another option--during an offensive siphon offensive, there isn't just 1 siphon placed per moon mining tower. It's more in the order of 5-6. That would effectively shut out a day's worth of mining, and if they were succesfully picked up full by the offensive siphoners, there would be more than enough ISK to pay for another round of siphons. This would probably be run by black ops type ships with black ops cynos, at a guess.

Siphon bomber fleet roams?

This is good in many respects--it gives Alliances all new ways to wage war, and it forces alliances to actually patrol their space. These patrols can be jumped, adding to small gang warfare.

You COULD try patrolling in massive fleet fight blobs, but that couldn't last for long.


This also makes AFK? Cloakers a bigger threat.

Are they AFK Cloaking, or are they AFK Siphon Cloakers?
Laserak
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-10-30 16:20:57 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
But, i'm admitting my biggest obstacle is my lack of available knowledge regarding null sec moon-goo operations. I'm assuming they're not particularly time intensive processes that require alot of constant hands-on attention. They're setup to run, and people come back when needed. Does this mean they'd be more vulnerable to this sort of hit and run steal attack?


I would listen to Javajunky's EVE Vegas presentation for an idea of what it takes to run POS farms..
Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
#14 - 2013-10-30 16:24:15 UTC
Laserak wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
But, i'm admitting my biggest obstacle is my lack of available knowledge regarding null sec moon-goo operations. I'm assuming they're not particularly time intensive processes that require alot of constant hands-on attention. They're setup to run, and people come back when needed. Does this mean they'd be more vulnerable to this sort of hit and run steal attack?


I would listen to Javajunky's EVE Vegas presentation for an idea of what it takes to run POS farms..


My impression was that the towers were fuelled for a month, and moon goo was pulled out on a specific cycle. Siphons could definitely mess with that.
Laserak
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-10-30 16:25:32 UTC
Himnos Altar wrote:
Laserak wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
But, i'm admitting my biggest obstacle is my lack of available knowledge regarding null sec moon-goo operations. I'm assuming they're not particularly time intensive processes that require alot of constant hands-on attention. They're setup to run, and people come back when needed. Does this mean they'd be more vulnerable to this sort of hit and run steal attack?


I would listen to Javajunky's EVE Vegas presentation for an idea of what it takes to run POS farms..


My impression was that the towers were fuelled for a month, and moon goo was pulled out on a specific cycle. Siphons could definitely mess with that.


Some people will be more prepared than others for pos siphons, yes Smile
Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
#16 - 2013-10-30 16:30:56 UTC
yup, that's what I thought.

I expect to read lots of tears from null bears about you ebil Goons stealing all their moon goo.

:P
Spurty
#17 - 2013-10-30 16:35:24 UTC
Unless you are a glutton for punishment, just put moon harvesters on your overview and use D-SCAN to find moons that are harvesting.

If you want to be 100% sure the moon is of value then just wait a bit and, count up the numbers of siphons already deployed.

Wormholes mean that no one is going to stop you waltzing in and putting your siphons down if they aren't manning their POS 23.5/7

They will manage to keep that up for about 21 days before they fail to keep vigilant and revert back to the bad current ways.

Expect all Siphons put down in the first 14 days to be 'out of corp' alts lol GG

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
#18 - 2013-10-30 16:51:58 UTC
Spurty wrote:
Unless you are a glutton for punishment, just put moon harvesters on your overview and use D-SCAN to find moons that are harvesting.

If you want to be 100% sure the moon is of value then just wait a bit and, count up the numbers of siphons already deployed.

Wormholes mean that no one is going to stop you waltzing in and putting your siphons down if they aren't manning their POS 23.5/7

They will manage to keep that up for about 21 days before they fail to keep vigilant and revert back to the bad current ways.

Expect all Siphons put down in the first 14 days to be 'out of corp' alts lol GG




you should also be able to set up a filter for combat probes, correct?

So set them to .5 AU, scan at the planets.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-10-30 16:57:26 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
lol at this guy who thinks that the publicly available information such as the Dotlan maps are accurate and complete (and that the data therein hasn't been deliberately falsified to confound hostile intel).

To your other point, dropping a siphon will be trivial since POS mods have a slow lock time, you can drop, deploy and warp off in any reasonably agile ship long before anything starts lighting you up.


OP: Moon maps are very easy to get your hands on. Get any alt inside any corp of any major alliance and go to "alliance bulletins". Most will have one up. Same for JB networks, POS placement...

Dodixie > Hek

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#20 - 2013-10-30 17:32:07 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Well, depends, remember they aren't targeted by the guns automatically, requires someone manning them to do that. So you could feasibly sweep through an area and deploy them on selected targets. You can deploy more than one remember, slapping up 10 would increase the amount you're stealing immensely. Assuming i'm hitting a moon-goo POS pretty close to my wormhole exit, getting the goods back to market would be a piece of cake!

But, i'm admitting my biggest obstacle is my lack of available knowledge regarding null sec moon-goo operations. I'm assuming they're not particularly time intensive processes that require alot of constant hands-on attention. They're setup to run, and people come back when needed. Does this mean they'd be more vulnerable to this sort of hit and run steal attack?

But don't forget, each one has to be deployed for 4 hours to break even. And during that time, you can't stop someone shooting them or stealing from them. So say you put it on my POS, I turn up, empty it and start shooting it down. What will you do?
Sure, you could shoot me, in full view of the POS guns. That would be pretty hilarious.
Remember, the POS gun's don't automatically shoot your siphon, but if I'm on grid in a mega, grinding your siphons down, best of luck dropping me before the POS drops you.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

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