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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6981 - 2013-10-30 00:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
It doesn't really matter what changes have been made to Marauders, because once Rubicon is released these are relegated to high-sec. Low speed, poor agility and the new warp mechanics are going to turn these into shiny pinatas for people looking to pad their kill boards.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6982 - 2013-10-30 00:54:35 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Anize Oramara wrote:

You are wrong as I have shown in the post right above yours. The increased damage application, increased penetrating hits and REAL WORLD (haha internet spaceships) results far outstrip the paltry paper dps theory crafters circle jerk over.

Hell I didn't even use my drones since I get far more isk/m by simply having my salvage drones salvage while I shoot things. That's the whole point of the marauder. If you try and use the bastion marauder as you would the TQ one, or WORSE a pirate BS you will fail and deservedly so. Adapt and you will excel. The change is coming so everyone will have to adapt or switch over to pirate BS. Gankers would prefer that to be honest as I don't need a SINGLE bling module to full room tank vengeance and apparently angel extrav bonus room while your pirate BS still needs plenty of bling.


only you are very incorrect.

i might also reference your comment in relation to the mission you tested (Serpentis Vengeance):

Anize Oramara wrote:

...
I made a few derp mistakes that cost me around 5 min since it's the first time running it
...


TQ vargur tears that mission to shreds already, but because that was your first time playing that mission ever, you wouldnt have known that. About your "fit" MJD is not needed on that mission and ab is a better choice, esp in room 3. Also, you are going way overkill on the falloff. switch rigs to burst II ambit I. I'd make a comment about the sensor booster, but options are very limited for this extra slot, so whatever floats your boat xD.

I should mention as well that my tq mission runner fit uses 2 tracking computers... not really sure you could possibly have any tracking / applied dmg bonuses over my fit. We have already discussed to death that the vargur functions better outside of bastion mode even if the bastioned one has 3 TCs

EFT / paper stuff isnt everything, but neither is SISI testing by itself. esp when you dont even have a baseline tq vargur run to compare it with xD.

On paper, the vargur is worse. in practice the vargur is worse (save ewar / rare missions that need more than 1 mjd every 3 mins). Run the mission on the tq vargur as well and you will see.

also:
you've never used an MJD prior to 10/18/13?

did you just start using a mach recently as well? or have you used one yet?
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#6983 - 2013-10-30 05:55:09 UTC
I clock in at 40 minutes running the serp vengeance in my TQ Kronos, but mostly because i do a full salvage and leave the last bits to drones while i set up the next netflix episode, Were i to do a better salvage and loot sort i would finish at around 25-30 minutes. In my TQ vargur, Ive never timed it but it always feels faster.

When you tried it on SISI did you Bastion? or run it like a TQ Vargur?
Why are you attempting to benchmark performance using only the prototype?

The bastion offers nothing that i need, with drawbacks that do not entice me to use it. Where are all of the things that people have been actually asking for in Marauders?
Most significantly, where is the higher scan resolution and base sensor strength?

I do not generally use all of the bandwith on my Kronos or vargur, as i am always moving sentries do not make sense. with a module that immobilizes me like the bastion, sentries would make sense but with the addition of the bastion module in rubicon, so goes the ability to as effectively use sentries.

there are a bunch of missions where i would love to not get jammed as much as i do, but i have never once thought that it would be better if i used blasters and been immobile (on a kronos).

Its simply a bad idea, that yet again CCP will push out anyway because no one there has the fortitude to tell the art department that they cant find a role for the half finished animations they produced.

Anize Orama wrote:
If you try and use the bastion marauder as you would the TQ one, or WORSE a pirate BS you will fail and deservedly so. Adapt and you will excel.

Excel to do exactly the same in a different play style while gaining nothing but a higher vulnerability to gankers.

I see a lot of features in Rubicon but none of the things that people have been asking for.

Where are the modular POS updates?
Where are the Corp Roles revamp?
Where is the (optional) ******* off button for clouds?

Anize wrote:

The increased damage application, increased penetrating hits and REAL WORLD (haha internet spaceships) results far outstrip the paltry paper dps theory crafters circle jerk over.

Citation needed

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6984 - 2013-10-30 07:04:18 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Vargur got the option to use 1400mm like it or not still an option . now if you use 1400mm you can tell it will work very well with bastion. vargur will probably be the best ship for artillery in rubicon

the second option is pretty OP giving marauder an extra mid slot without any drawbacks. At least right now the high slot is ultility which wont affect performance of the ship.


You sound like one of the guys who can't use the vargur or 1400s T2 on TQ at all. 1400 work not better in bastion then out of it. Tornado will probably stay the best ship for artillery in rubicon if you want to stay mobile and Maelstrom will be the best ship for artillery with a decent buffer tank in rubicon. You will not see Arty Vargurs. If you do it is for brain afk lvl pve-ers.


you sound like one of those who mix pvp and pve up just to get a point accross. why are you bringin tornado into the mix? how exactly is malestorm better than a vargur in the expansion? vargur got falloff bonus and bastion give more optimal and falloff.


The changes are mainly to make the vargur usable in a non pve scenario. this is what i read around here, but not what i think is good for the ship.

I love pvp, it's the only thing keeping me playing this game, but i never thought "i want my vargur in pvp". For nearly every situation i could use a vargur, one of the prior mentioned artillery ships do the job much better.

I actually used both, the maelstrom and the tornado in pvp. I once used a vargur with 800s in a station game scenario with an insanely high amount of neutral rr.

From what i experience now I would never ever use the bastion version of vargur in pvp. especially a 1400s version of it becomes a dead fish atm it goes into beastion.

"He's in bastion. get the scanner drones out and warp a ceptor into close range"

If you want a mobile arty platform you will buy 10 Tornados for one vargur and if you want a buffer tanked RR supported arty boat you use a mael.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6985 - 2013-10-30 07:56:35 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It doesn't really matter what changes have been made to Marauders, because once Rubicon is released these are relegated to high-sec. Low speed, poor agility and the new warp mechanics are going to turn these into shiny pinatas for people looking to pad their kill boards.


Three kronos and two golems are on their way to null for me as we speak.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6986 - 2013-10-30 09:01:28 UTC
I tested the 4x faction gyro Arty Vargur in "Gone Berserk" lvl 4. I thought it will be nice for an arty boat. But with

less than 600DPS

It is so boring and slow. While I was always in optimal range with this ammunition (rf titanium sabot) i did nearly no damage. How much does a T2 railgun fitted Kronos do here?
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#6987 - 2013-10-30 09:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
baltec1 wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It doesn't really matter what changes have been made to Marauders, because once Rubicon is released these are relegated to high-sec. Low speed, poor agility and the new warp mechanics are going to turn these into shiny pinatas for people looking to pad their kill boards.


Three kronos and two golems are on their way to null for me as we speak.


A shame that all of use do not have the same degree of enthusiasm. I can't really vouch for their PVP capabilities, but nor can I really say I doubt they could work well enough. If nothing else, I wish you the best of luck and happy hunting.

I intend to use them for L4's (though, I will keep hold on my CNR as an alternate) and, while I don't think bastion offers me anything really all that great, I've already thought of a few areas in L4s at least where it would be better to at least carry one even if I intend not to use it. I also have noticed that many of the various fits in Pyfa I've come up with are at least half a billion isk cheaper than my current TQ ones, so there's a plus at least.

Edit: that reminds me.....how well does this thing hold up to disconnects? I heard they don't (the bastion mod) permit e-warps due to dropped connections.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6988 - 2013-10-30 09:20:49 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

If you want to play with the impact of drones:
An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.

Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones.


and yet again you proove that you neglect all effects to your sdisadvantage.

a sentry i worth **** outside eft in this scenario you yourself say marauders and esp the vargur have to be mobile.... else you place the sentry at range or else it wont apply any meaningfull dps to anything completly unbonused and even if you do you'll end up looseing more time placeing it and scoopeing it up than you would never useing it.

i think we wont reach a consense here because your unwilling to see that your view of drone dps is fundamentally flawed

btw ill agree with you on the most part of the movementspeed and bastion but that doesnt make up for the drones blunder....


The purpose of the post is to reflect that w/ general mission running, outside of the original advantages I have spoken about again and again including in the very first post you replied to (ewar, rare needs for MJD < 3mins) that the ship has taken an overall nerf.

I am glad that you see the advantages in mobility, and that when it comes to mobile vs bastionedcombat that the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur.

The point related to drones was not a blunder, and serves to indicate that even in immobile vs bastioned combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi marauder due to the drone bandwidth. Remember that original 36dps was estimated at a range of 40km. (all lvl V) an unbonused bouncer II(i.e. difference in bandwidth) deals around ~48dps to BS moving in a perfect 40km orbit around the stationary vargur. Assuming the same BS is on the approach, its ~53 dps. You dont waste time scooping if you arent moving. In immobile combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur

In summary:
TQ vs SISI vargurs in general lvl 4 combat outside of its few niche uses which I have on many occasions mentioned:
mobile vs mobile = winner TQ
mobile vs bastioned = winner TQ
immobile vs bastioned = winner TQ

The vargur has been nerfed.

You are wrong as I have shown in the post right above yours. The increased damage application, increased penetrating hits and REAL WORLD (haha internet spaceships) results far outstrip the paltry paper dps theory crafters circle jerk over.

Hell I didn't even use my drones since I get far more isk/m by simply having my salvage drones salvage while I shoot things. That's the whole point of the marauder. If you try and use the bastion marauder as you would the TQ one, or WORSE a pirate BS you will fail and deservedly so. Adapt and you will excel. The change is coming so everyone will have to adapt or switch over to pirate BS. Gankers would prefer that to be honest as I don't need a SINGLE bling module to full room tank vengeance and apparently angel extrav bonus room while your pirate BS still needs plenty of bling.



sorry but no. Any good vargur pilto knows hwo to use its superior speed (in TQ) to cancel transversal of enemy and apply a LOT more dps.


Rubicon vargur is much weaker than the TQ one by mobility nerf alone.

The only marauder that got better on l4 (but worse on incursions) is the paladin because now it can abuse pulse lasers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6989 - 2013-10-30 09:38:10 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It doesn't really matter what changes have been made to Marauders, because once Rubicon is released these are relegated to high-sec. Low speed, poor agility and the new warp mechanics are going to turn these into shiny pinatas for people looking to pad their kill boards.


Three kronos and two golems are on their way to null for me as we speak.


A shame that all of use do not have the same degree of enthusiasm. I can't really vouch for their PVP capabilities, but nor can I really say I doubt they could work well enough. If nothing else, I wish you the best of luck and happy hunting.

I intend to use them for L4's (though, I will keep hold on my CNR as an alternate) and, while I don't think bastion offers me anything really all that great, I've already thought of a few areas in L4s at least where it would be better to at least carry one even if I intend not to use it. I also have noticed that many of the various fits in Pyfa I've come up with are at least half a billion isk cheaper than my current TQ ones, so there's a plus at least.

Edit: that reminds me.....how well does this thing hold up to disconnects? I heard they don't (the bastion mod) permit e-warps due to dropped connections.


1 kronos for anoms (the blasters will out do everything but a very expensive sheild vindi)

2x kronos for pvp, I may need a 4th as a sheild nano kronos is looking nice for cruiser AB gangs but I want to work on this a bit more to see how well I can adapt it to different fleets.

2x golem for solo/small gang vs frigs and cruisers.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#6990 - 2013-10-30 10:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Brib Vogt wrote:
I tested the 4x faction gyro Arty Vargur in "Gone Berserk" lvl 4. I thought it will be nice for an arty boat. But with

less than 600DPS

It is so boring and slow. While I was always in optimal range with this ammunition (rf titanium sabot) i did nearly no damage. How much does a T2 railgun fitted Kronos do here?


My current kronos needs about 6 minutes(warpin/warpout) for the gone berserk and does 1149 dps @ 47+49(FN antimatter + garde II, all 5 + slot 9 5% damage imp). I play tested the first iteration with the massive speed nerf and it took 2 minutes longer, doing the same thing with rails(combination of less speed and dps).

Btw, it will go faster with phased plasma or emp, dump everything(all TCs and at least one Rig slot) into tracking and move the hull in advance to a position where it can hit everything well/gives you enough time before stuff gets under artillery tracking. Since you get 5s painters with the changes, it might be feasible to use one instead of the 3. TC(before the changes, when you did need the highest tracking to kill small suff, you also needed to split the guns, what was not effective with only 1 painter).

Kagura Nikon wrote:

The only marauder that got better on l4 (but worse on incursions) is the paladin because now it can abuse pulse lasers.


It can use puls fine atm, you just fit a mwd and the web helps you covering point blank, what is kind of unavoidable since you can't hit the small stuff good if you mwd in the direction and to not lose the dps you swap around the kill order, starting with BS then trying to take out small stuff that you can still hit. When you stoped and deployed sentrys you web down the frigs(takes around 15s each) and then kill them with the guns. But then again the navy apoc is so much quicker on the feet and got the tracking bonus that allows it to hit while mwding around(with 2 TCs scripted to tracking), so I rarely bothered with the paladin for L4 after the changes to navy BS in L4(I still love .

I always found it hilarious that people empathize scorch so much, given that EM is probably the worst damage type in pve if you don't shoot super EM weak rats and Tachs do much better across the board(enough alpha to one volley even BCs, high thermal damage at medium range, and higher dps) on every hull that can fit them without to much RCUs(with the exception of angels maybe since you want the extra puls tracking and conflag for the higher thermal damage).

Since I still didn't get a answer on it, is it really that hard to do a copy/paste job and leave the old marauders as a 2. marauder ship in game, it is not like writing in 4 new names in the DB would be hard and it would make a lot of people happy that prefer to fly her marauders without bastion and mjd and actually do like the web bonuses and the speed.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6991 - 2013-10-30 10:51:54 UTC
Also I still do nto get, why the vargur was speed nerfed 4 times more than the other 3.



Why so much hate for the conceptual speed advantage of minmatar?

Why not remove all drones from gallente then? Woudl be same thing.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#6992 - 2013-10-30 11:30:53 UTC
Because apparently moving the hull around does not fall into the dev idea how to do pve, what is standing around and providing noob friendly tanks and the mjd fixes everything. "shrugs"

I do agree that the speed changes to the vargur are overall hurting the hull a lot(for people that actually use a mwd on it) and the Kronos with only 50m³ is also far less attractive as sentry/rail ship(like flying a sentry rail ship with 120 dps from sentry's that can't even hit at close any more).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Edora Madullier
French Kiss Singularity
#6993 - 2013-10-30 12:33:10 UTC
Can't test myself at the moment, but does anyone know if NOS still works on NPCs?

I'd like to fit a Vargur with 2 Heavy NOS (thanks to the added PG) to be able to use a MWD and keep capacitor running. Maybe that would make up for the loss of speed.

What do you think?
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#6994 - 2013-10-30 12:44:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukinosuke
Sobaan Tali wrote:


Edit: that reminds me.....how well does this thing hold up to disconnects? I heard they don't (the bastion mod) permit e-warps due to dropped connections.


yeah, that may be a big problem..


Julie Thorne wrote:
In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.

1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.

2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.

3. Extra tank is unnecessary.

Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.

4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.

So I have 3 suggestions.

1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.

2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.

3. Give some or all of the speed back.


honest, you seem confused. waste a mid slot for bastion on "so so" shield tank ship? more speed to hull but you know bastion mode speed is 0m/s? the new eden life is not only lv4 missions, please remember.. after all, i might not understand your post correct..


you answer yourself below, if you were in Matar space, you would use T2 ammo..
Julie Thorne wrote:

1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.


Julie Thorne wrote:

1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#6995 - 2013-10-30 13:50:15 UTC
Edora Madullier wrote:
Can't test myself at the moment, but does anyone know if NOS still works on NPCs?

I'd like to fit a Vargur with 2 Heavy NOS (thanks to the added PG) to be able to use a MWD and keep capacitor running. Maybe that would make up for the loss of speed.

What do you think?


I've not tried it as of late but I'm sure it "works", you won't ever really have a situation where you'll need to use them, also you have to be below 3800 cap to leech anything from BS's as that is their capacitor size I believe.

I'm trying to get CCP to acknowledge the need for launcher hardpoints so we can use the high slots for something useful in L4 PvE, not that it makes much of a difference dps wise but at least we'd get something pretty flying around and visually enjoyable, 3-4x RHML or 3-4x RLML could possibly be useful for something... marginally.

  • Tractor beams will possibly be redundant due to the deployable tractor/looter thing.
  • Salvagers are no longer needed due to salvage drones.
  • Neuts are not for PvE and are hazardous to use anyway.
  • Autotargeters...
  • Drone links aren't needed as the only drones used will be light/salvage and Vargur is mostly used in <60km with AC's anyway.
  • Fitting RR will be of no use since there are no drones to actually repair.

    • Currently on live I use 2x drone links and 1x tractor beam, only the tractor beam is somewhat useful for pulling mission loot sometimes.

    I actually don't know what to use the high slots for in Rubicon either... there really aren't any useful modules I can think of for L4 PvE.
    NOS is possibly the best(still horrible) for any kind of 'oh ****' effect in PvE, yet I'm sure you won't need them at all, you really have to consciously try to get in trouble to find a reliable use for them.

    One possible solution is to use the high slots as heat sinks for overheating the guns, that does send a clear message though doesn't it.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Mer88
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #6996 - 2013-10-30 15:26:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mer88
    it seems they ninja buffed the marauder again.

    i noticed the kronos got 125 bay 50 bandwidth now. Also the ships all got mass reduced by alot. The only nerf is the slight speed reduced but being a railgun kronos with sentries why do you even need to move?
    Mer88
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #6997 - 2013-10-30 15:31:46 UTC


    Julie Thorne wrote:

    1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.
    [/quote]


    i agree with this falloff should always double optimal range just like a tracking computer
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #6998 - 2013-10-30 16:12:56 UTC
    Sure, 50% Bastion falloff is fine if we can get a +25% flight time as well for missiles.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #6999 - 2013-10-30 16:16:44 UTC
    The Djego wrote:
    Because apparently moving the hull around does not fall into the dev idea how to do pve, what is standing around and providing noob friendly tanks and the mjd fixes everything. "shrugs"

    I do agree that the speed changes to the vargur are overall hurting the hull a lot(for people that actually use a mwd on it) and the Kronos with only 50m³ is also far less attractive as sentry/rail ship(like flying a sentry rail ship with 120 dps from sentry's that can't even hit at close any more).



    Though the runiation of the armour Marauders in Incursions with these changes is well-documented, it will be quite interesting to see how CCP deals with the cries out outrage when this ship class nerf hits all the mission-runners who don't read the forums.

    Frankly, given CCP's hatred of its own high sec customer base, not much will happen. and they will ignore the inevitable many many post Nov 19th threads complaining how the ship class was wrecked.

    And the vast majority of people still have not clued in how badly nerfed all BS based income is with the warp speed nerf.
    Vinyl 41
    AdVictis
    #7000 - 2013-10-30 16:20:08 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Sure, 50% Bastion falloff is fine if we can get a +25% flight time as well for missiles.

    25% still wont help torps to beat that 50km mark you need a 30/30% buff to get over it