Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You sound like one of the guys who can't use the vargur or 1400s T2 on TQ at all. 1400 work not better in bastion then out of it. Tornado will probably stay the best ship for artillery in rubicon if you want to stay mobile and Maelstrom will be the best ship for artillery with a decent buffer tank in rubicon. You will not see Arty Vargurs. If you do it is for brain afk lvl pve-ers.

lawl, last time I checked, a TC isnt raw dps, it adds projection / effective dps.... I also like how you only quoted part of the post and failed to quote the parts talking about mobility differences, the MJD bonus, ewar immunity, etc

Your argument is that dps numbers are less important than.....well, you didnt list the change that is supposed to invalidate my arguement...

If you believe these changes to be an overall buff for level 4s, why not actually make an argument with factual information that shows how whatever 'mystery topic' is will consistently result in more isk/hour

POS forum ate my post :(

Anywyas, got off of sisi and the vargur is so damn good right now I have trouble articulating it into words.

It is going to be glorious and I can't wait

FYI all the numbnuts who only care about raw dps numbers: Have you guys considered the impact increased number of penetrating hits and improved quality of grazing shots due to increased tracking and range have on your mission running speed?

It's effing huge and you would know that if you bothered testing it on sisi.

you didn't understand the point i quoted this passage because of the very flawed logic in this passage.
you only talk about the damage bonus at a fixed range your TE gives you and THEN you make the worst mistake .....you say compared to old bandwith you loose dmg (with a ship thats supposed to e in the middle of a fight in your preffered fit)

if you actually belive youll do better clear times useing med drones your just bad.
small drones (with selected dmg) wil clear all small ships up to cruisers while you apply your damage to cruisers and above will lead to better clear times than just going with most dps drones (like hobs).
and if you say youll loose dps by not beeing able to swap between drones when all small ships are dead you greatly underestimate the travel times of drones.

so effectively you'll loose way less dps than these 36 if even any dps.

thats why i called it dumb cause you neglect all but your eft dmg (in this case).

If people have been reduced to arguing about specific fits, strategy's, and situations as opposed to the hulls themselves I think that is a good indication that the hulls in question are probably pretty well balanced against each other.

Actually those very things should be considered for balancing of these ships, ignoring what other ships offer or perform can result in duplication and unecessary overlap between ships. In addition, performance of ships and strategies of their use also has the same apply to it.

Not sure how long you've tracked the thread, but its gone into this cycle numerous times already lol, even the earlier discussion with mission completion times etc has been discussed hundreds of pages prior.



Some of it is some pretty broad concepts though, I wouldn't say the hulls are balanced well based off an argument between people about what drones to use lol.



36 more paper dps due to eft telling you its better from the range / tracking difference. Except we all know, if you weren't a sitting brick you'd be moving correctly to make up any difference gained, not only that, but as was pointed out, the amount of time taken to even close the gap of distance gained by bastion takes so little time its not even a factor.

Point is, if both ships sat still, and shot at that eft ship, you're right, its got better applied dps in bastion. Reality is, unless you're braindead you're not gonna just sit still when you can move.

Unless I've missed something, this is the classic EFT malarkey thats thrown around.

Before the changes to faction BS a CNR was the far better CM ship, it had the higher damage output with CMs compared to the golem while it had massive issues mounting torps + tank + speed mod. Overall if you did want to utilize torpedoes properly the ship you did fly was the Golem(if you did want CMs, then you flown a CNR, because it was plain better at it). Funny enough, by the speed buff to the CNR it became the better torp ship already, since the Golem lacks speed to get in range quick and this is probably it's main downside(and it get speed nerfed with the changes). Overall it got the fitting to mount torps + prop mod + active tank, the painter bonus what is necessary for torps and with T2 resists + active tanking bonus the ability to duke it out a close range(at least till a point where you get sufficient skilled, then the dps solves all your problems for you).

From my experience flying the marauders, Kronos is a pure sentry+rail platform(it got beaten at blasters by the Vindi, and it is comedy gold with the changes, using blasters as a static ship), however I don't mind since it did offer a fairly good compromise between speed, range and med range dps(not so much with the changes, since it loses speed and sentry dps). Golem is a close range extreme high gank ship, if you don't fit it that way, the CNR is plain better, the Vargur is like a bit heavier tanked Mach with a lot of downsides and no real niche(except ammo efficiently and high end tank fittings that are not useful for most content). With little surprise the Paladin is the best marauder, it can work fully gank fitted, utilizing sentry's, 90% webbing and mwd or high tach dps at medium range with sentry support(again nerfed by the band wide and speed changes).

Overall roles are restricted by the alternatives, Golem and Vargur are down to close range weapons, by fitting advantages mostly, Kronos is down to long range, because it can do it better than the vindi, that is plain better than it at close. Paladin is the exception, it can do both very good and even in extreme competitive scenarios like Incs it could hold it's niche against other armor ships(by combining powerful webing with high range) and it manages to break even against the overall best dps/utility platform in the game(the nightmare). This is from the perspective of somebody that flown both hulls in 5B+ fittings under contest, where dps on the target is everything and utilizing your platform up to maximum efficiency is required.



It should be common knowledge to anybody that does pve a bit more serious. Especially since jamming is such a big problem on marauders.



Yes I did, since I actually compared speed with both hulls doing stuff while moving the hulls around in the content. Given I did run some L4s with my current Vargur I really hate the speed, it simply goes way to fast and clicking the shield booster a few times with my 2 slot tank is way to much work, so overall the new marauders will be better.

Is is really this hard to believe that the people that want to fly her old marauders flown the hulls quite a bit and are not satisfied with the changes?

Correct though there are examples (perhaps its really the only significant one) like with the Golem, where the comparison is not even pirate vessels, RNI. I can't put to much weight to my words on every specific ship under the stars, and frankly I think some ships are more balanced or balanced easier just due to their existing behavior. This of course referring to some of the other marauders.

I of course have my reservations about some of these changes, the hull changes, I am looking forward to. I think Bastion is a bit of a gimmick, and the design intent is incredibly contradictory to intelligent game play, I'll likely still use it when necessary. I just feel they could have done better at setting maraudars apart from other ships. I like some of the idea, but I think the implementation is poor.

I have tested in EFT and on SiSi

you do realize that the vargur has always been able to eat frigs with half/single gun volleys and reliably 1 shot low tanked cruisers. It even has a significant amount of overkill tied to it with ACs and while bastioned you lose the ability to use your mobility to lower the angular of your target.....

tracking is already very high on the vargur.
vs battleships,
bastioned vargur with 3 SS TC (all tracking) vs a tq vargur with 2 SS TCs (1 tracking, 1 optimal)
(both using ambit and 1 RF TE)
the bastioned vargur gains ~20 dps over the tq vargur, that progressively declines out til the advantage is gone at around the 30KM mark

bastioned with 3 ss tc (2 tracking 1 optimal) vs tq with 2 ss tc (both optimal)
the benefits are ~15dps at 20km and the benefit is lost at ~25km

Already discussed bastioned w/ 3 optimal vs tq with 2 optimal

granted, this is also assuming that the tq vargur is stationary and not taking advantage of its mobility via closing distances or reducing angular.

I will and have always planned on using the vargur on rubicon for ewar missions and certain missions like serp Massive Attack, that really benefit from being able to MJD often. but given the looting structure, drone bandwidth reduction, mobility/dmg reduction, I will not be using it as my main mission runner if these are the changes. Mach was always better than the vargur at general clear times, it will now be able to loot as well, plus the vargur nerfs...

The purpose of the post is to reflect that w/ general mission running, outside of the original advantages I have spoken about again and again including in the very first post you replied to (ewar, rare needs for MJD < 3mins) that the ship has taken an overall nerf.

I am glad that you see the advantages in mobility, and that when it comes to mobile vs bastionedcombat that the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur.

The point related to drones was not a blunder, and serves to indicate that even in immobile vs bastioned combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi marauder due to the drone bandwidth. Remember that original 36dps was estimated at a range of 40km. (all lvl V) an unbonused bouncer II(i.e. difference in bandwidth) deals around ~48dps to BS moving in a perfect 40km orbit around the stationary vargur. Assuming the same BS is on the approach, its ~53 dps. You dont waste time scooping if you arent moving. In immobile combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur

In summary:
TQ vs SISI vargurs in general lvl 4 combat outside of its few niche uses which I have on many occasions mentioned:
mobile vs mobile = winner TQ
mobile vs bastioned = winner TQ
immobile vs bastioned = winner TQ

The vargur has been nerfed.