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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#6941 - 2013-10-29 17:21:34 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza.....
Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate.
I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.


I'm sorry to say, that the fastest round with one single ship i know is from Gul Rashen (he started a thread in eveger forum long time ago, an posted fitting, tactics and so on) in an AE he needs less than 30 mins. I for myself don't need bastion or something and need something around 35 mins in my Vargur now on TQ.

The changes are only good for brainless missionruning, you don't need to make tactics to avoid incoming dps. You can ignore EW ships (espacilly the ECm elite Cruiser in gurista space), all in all it's dumbening down the game, that i don't like.
But for which one? The "vets" know what they are doing. If new players are not smart enough to use google and read what to do, they don't stay in this game very long (they get back to wow...).
The only thing that is realy better: You don't need to pimp your ship like a bling bling brothel door, T2 is enough now.

All the other stuff: Incursion, L5, Wh and so on.... should be not be done with a single char. It's stuff for groups and should stay is this way, just bring friends.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6942 - 2013-10-29 17:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Anything you can do in a Golem you can just as easily do in a Raven on L4s. Since we're just talking about 'turtling' in Bastion mode, you can use a MJD, signal amplifier and some sensor boosters to park your Raven @ 200km range and volley away. So if you've trained for Marauders, you'll probably use the new ones. Otherwise, there are probably higher priority skills and cheaper ships that can generally accomplish the same.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#6943 - 2013-10-29 18:27:09 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
pirate is expensive and good but not as skill intensive.
it makes sense to have marauder be similar in output but cheaper isk because of high skill requirements, or making them better while requiring both isk AND skill points.

And my god i wanted to like the new marauder, i really did, i want to fly them.,...theres just no situation where it would be better to use these marauders over a small gang of different ships. (as i dont solo )

power creep causes things to become unbalanced, you can indeed balance the system by buffing an individual part that has been dwarfed by most other parts of the game - the Other parts of the game are what have experienced power creep. In the end, everyones' paper damage will be higher, and tanks will be higher, its a sort of inflation... but its an easier way to re balance the game then it is to nerf EVERYTHING else.

its not about the numbers being in their hundreds vs their thousands, its about the interrelationship between different parts of the game at any one time... artificial inflation of the numbers is irrelevant.

Skill requirements do not entitle you to have just higher DPS. OK, it may be generaly the case but it's not a strict rule.

The fact that you couldn't find the proper situation where these ships can be used does not mean such situation does not exist. And you keep ignoring people reporting that they found it. CCP is not obliged to give a role you like to the ship you like. It's the other way around: they give ship and capabilities, and finding the role or purpose is up to you. If you could not find it, tough luck, maybe try another ship?

About power creep and balancing, you are wrong again. If you balance by buffing, then you have to rebalance everything else, sooner or later. Not only ships but also PVE content. If all goes according to your wishes, in couple of years we're going to have battleships outputting in 2-3k range, which means all PVE content will be too easy. And I wouldn't hold my breath on CCP going anytime soon to update all missions, lest the rest of PVE.

You are right it's all about numbers interbalance. The thing is, it's about ALL numbers. It's easier to keep in check, and nerf if required, small their subset instead of tweaking the whole lot.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#6944 - 2013-10-29 18:48:44 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Serious question: Why do you put efforts int redesigning the Paladin if then only give it such a dull and unoriginal Bastion animation? Why not extend some hull plates on the newly designed front or on the sides? Fozzy said these department has no time for real new CS modes. Is that all, what the so busy art department can do? That's a bad joke! I ask you to give the Paladin the Bastion animation that it deserves, or change the model back to the old new Apoc because it looks better than the new model after all. Why do you want to waste the time the art dept,has put ino the new model with this half-assed bastion animation?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6945 - 2013-10-29 18:54:49 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Shantetha wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ok..
So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.

I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).


It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room.
That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away.
I never had to warp out.
I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.

That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.

In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap.
However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.


1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza.....
Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate.
I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.

buddy of mine does it in a vargur on TQ in ~40 min, i don't remember if he has it down below that yet.
pretty sure he doesn't warp out at all even in the bonus room.

i have been using an mjd cruise/sentry Armageddon to do it at around 55 min



I highly doubt any of that....
Also, I never believe the "a friend of my friend, who's friend's friend was able to clear"

so 'k; i can understand the hesitance to believe anything that doesn't fit the model of OMG THE NEW MARAUDERS are hot sex in a tanking blanket. But i am not the only one telling you the current vargar on TQ can do it in significantly less then 1 hour.

A little check on youtube will find you an example of a ~37 min AE. This gank bait is using officer 800 RA, t2's work just fine prob a little better due to t2 ammo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xPg-OTsuY



so yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6946 - 2013-10-29 19:44:28 UTC
Shantetha wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Shantetha wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ok..
So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.

I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).


It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room.
That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away.
I never had to warp out.
I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.

That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.

In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap.
However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.


1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza.....
Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate.
I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.

buddy of mine does it in a vargur on TQ in ~40 min, i don't remember if he has it down below that yet.
pretty sure he doesn't warp out at all even in the bonus room.

i have been using an mjd cruise/sentry Armageddon to do it at around 55 min



I highly doubt any of that....
Also, I never believe the "a friend of my friend, who's friend's friend was able to clear"

so 'k; i can understand the hesitance to believe anything that doesn't fit the model of OMG THE NEW MARAUDERS are hot sex in a tanking blanket. But i am not the only one telling you the current vargar on TQ can do it in significantly less then 1 hour.

A little check on youtube will find you an example of a ~37 min AE. This gank bait is using officer 800 RA, t2's work just fine prob a little better due to t2 ammo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xPg-OTsuY



so yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time.


Like I said, vargur is a freak of nature.

Also, it's an 800's vs cruise issue.
800's carry a ton of ammo, have a faster cycle time, don't have to swap ammo for smaller targets, have instant damage application.

With missiles

I can only carry 27 per launcher, I have to wait for the missiles to travel so I can cycle to the next target, have to swap ammo for smaller targets, and they cycle slower.

and they both have damage selection.
Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
#6947 - 2013-10-29 19:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Outz Xacto
Shantetha wrote:


so yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time.


Agreed, using incorrect fittings, low skilled characters, bad mission playing, etc should not be justification nor used as a valid point of comparison.

Completion of AE in under 1 hour has never been difficult. Properly fitted ships with proper skills, knowing the mission and drunkin piloting can easily complete AE in under 1 hour without batting an eye.

Joe Risalo, all you've done is reiterate how huge of a crutch bastion is, and you still struggled with it.

On a related sidenote, I would recommend some brushing up on fits and perhaps revisiting your skills Joe, since you honestly should not be struggling like that, it could be some very minor changes that go a long way to helping your mission running experience be more pleasurable. Right now it sounds a bit on the rocky side.

The only last thing I can think of that either I missed or Joe you didn't explain is if you sat there salvaging every single thing after you finished a pocket? or something to do with multi tasking properly that's adding to mission completion time.

Edit:
There is a difference between 800's and CM's, this is not the take away however in your mission times, something else is dramatically slowing you down.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#6948 - 2013-10-29 19:52:04 UTC
Shantetha wrote:
A little check on youtube will find you an example of a ~37 min AE. This gank bait is using officer 800 RA, t2's work just fine prob a little better due to t2 ammo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xPg-OTsuY

so yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time.

Well, 37 minutes it's what I could achieve with mildly pimped Machariel, Vargur was a little slower but still managed to finish it in two ticks.

And Vargur on SiSi isn't any worse. Incidentally I did AE with it a couple days ago and the result was similar or maybe a tiny bit better than on TQ.

Vargur didn't get much from this rebalancing but it was quite decent ship to begin with.

I'll state explicitly what I suggested in my earlier posts: in my opinion, right now and as long as missions are concerned, Marauders and Pirate BS strike quite healthy balance. Pirates for min-max DPS (until nerft, nobody knows how they'll look like after), Marauders for versatile and tanky boats.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6949 - 2013-10-29 20:03:04 UTC
Outz Xacto wrote:
Shantetha wrote:


so yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time.


Agreed, using incorrect fittings, low skilled characters, bad mission playing, etc should not be justification nor used as a valid point of comparison.

Completion of AE in under 1 hour has never been difficult. Properly fitted ships with proper skills, knowing the mission and drunkin piloting can easily complete AE in under 1 hour without batting an eye.

Joe Risalo, all you've done is reiterate how huge of a crutch bastion is, and you still struggled with it.

On a related sidenote, I would recommend some brushing up on fits and perhaps revisiting your skills Joe, since you honestly should not be struggling like that, it could be some very minor changes that go a long way to helping your mission running experience be more pleasurable. Right now it sounds a bit on the rocky side.

The only last thing I can think of that either I missed or Joe you didn't explain is if you sat there salvaging every single thing after you finished a pocket? or something to do with multi tasking properly that's adding to mission completion time.



No, I did not salvage... I did, however, full clear every room (not including structures), and bonus room.

I just watched a video, and I think I know my issue.

I've been swapping to precision with small ships, but after I just watched a video, it appears that I can just fit the 3rd TP and stick with pure fury missiles.


Also, I have quite high missile skills... They only thing i probably don't have that would effect a cruise golem, is cruise specialization 5.

I put out 1015 dps with fury....

That said, it is possible that all that time spent reloading between precision and fury could be my problem.
Granted, it's not like I spent the whole time reloading... I would blast all the BS's in a room, and then start clearing frigs and cruisers.
Julie Thorne
Project Insanity
#6950 - 2013-10-29 20:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Julie Thorne
In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.

1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.

2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.

3. Extra tank is unnecessary.

Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.

4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.

So I have 3 suggestions.

1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.

2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.

3. Give some or all of the speed back.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#6951 - 2013-10-29 20:12:15 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I would blast all the BS's in a room, and then start clearing frigs and cruisers.

That's why, I believe, use of light scouts is not necessarily a waste of performance. Time not shooting at frigs/destroyers can be invested in shooting at BS/BC.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6952 - 2013-10-29 20:14:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
With the exception of having 20m/sec slower max velocity and one less heavy drone, I'm looking over the stats between a TQ Vargur and a SiSi Vargur and finding it hard to tell where the ship wasn't actually buffed for Rubicon compared to what we have now.


  • It has more armor and shield, with the same recharge time - a net gain in EHP over TQ
  • It has noticeably less mass (96,520,000 vs 106,100,000)
  • It has a larger cap (although the recharge time seems to have been slowed slightly)
  • It has more targeting range
  • It has noticeably more scan resolution
  • It gains a highslot
  • It gains quite a bit of powergrid (7900 --> 12900)
  • It gains a role bonus to let it MJD at a useful frequency
  • It loses a noticeable amount of sig radius
  • Faster aligning


Then there's the (in)famous Bastion Mode. The range/falloff bonuses don't apply very well on the Vargur (with the possible exception of Tremor) but the tank bonus certainly does. *

For all of this, you trade:

  • Some structure HP
  • 25 Mbit/sec unbonused drone bandwidth
  • 20 M/sec max velocity


Overall, a no-bastion Rubicon Vargur looks to be a better ship than a no-bastion TQ Vargur.

* Bastion's range bonus is 25% to optimal and falloff, stacking penalized. This translates to a small increase in optimal and a significant increase in falloff. It's important to consider that although projectile weapons do operate in falloff, the large increase in falloff when paired with the small increase to optimal doesn't actually help your effective range that much. 500 DPS @ 50km is probably great for 800s except that you're more than halfway into falloff and won't be hitting often enough to actually do that DPS.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6953 - 2013-10-29 20:21:53 UTC
After writing all that up and checking my numbers two or three times, I wonder if someone will say "but the Kronos gets amazing range with Null."
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6954 - 2013-10-29 20:22:37 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I would blast all the BS's in a room, and then start clearing frigs and cruisers.

That's why, I believe, use of light scouts is not necessarily a waste of performance. Time not shooting at frigs/destroyers can be invested in shooting at BS/BC.


I can use t2 lights of all races, so it might be best to swap them out for proper damage type as well
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6955 - 2013-10-29 20:24:45 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Shantetha wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Shantetha wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ok..
So, I just got finished running angel extravaganza.

I was using a cruise Golem with 1015 dps out to max target range (including CM-605 and RL-1005).


It took me within 1 minute of an hour to clear every room, including the bonus room.
That was from undock to dock, and the mission was 1 jump away.
I never had to warp out.
I was using my pith x-type XL booster, pulsing as needed, 2 x T2 invulns, and a t1 em rig.

That's probably the fastest I've ever been able to clear that mission, and the least amount of tanking issues.

In the bonus room, I was starting to get a little freaked, cause I was running out of cap.
However, I remembered I had MJD, so I finished up bastion cycle, MJD'd out, and my cap started building right back up.


1 hr is a pretty good clear time for angel's extravaganza.....
Do that without having to warp out in a navy or pirate.
I don't know a single ship that wouldn't have problems with the bonus room, and bastion Golem took it like a champ without even using cap boosters.

buddy of mine does it in a vargur on TQ in ~40 min, i don't remember if he has it down below that yet.
pretty sure he doesn't warp out at all even in the bonus room.

i have been using an mjd cruise/sentry Armageddon to do it at around 55 min



I highly doubt any of that....
Also, I never believe the "a friend of my friend, who's friend's friend was able to clear"

so 'k; i can understand the hesitance to believe anything that doesn't fit the model of OMG THE NEW MARAUDERS are hot sex in a tanking blanket. But i am not the only one telling you the current vargar on TQ can do it in significantly less then 1 hour.

A little check on youtube will find you an example of a ~37 min AE. This gank bait is using officer 800 RA, t2's work just fine prob a little better due to t2 ammo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xPg-OTsuY



so yes your 1 hour to finish AE is a long time.


Like I said, vargur is a freak of nature.

Also, it's an 800's vs cruise issue.
800's carry a ton of ammo, have a faster cycle time, don't have to swap ammo for smaller targets, have instant damage application.

With missiles

I can only carry 27 per launcher, I have to wait for the missiles to travel so I can cycle to the next target, have to swap ammo for smaller targets, and they cycle slower.

and they both have damage selection.


Vargur is only good vs angels and in mission damsel in distress i try vargur in serpentis assault and it was pretty rough
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6956 - 2013-10-29 20:27:02 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
After writing all that up and checking my numbers two or three times, I wonder if someone will say "but the Kronos gets amazing range with Null."



Who cares... Kronos doesn't get damage selection.

Trade range for selection.... Sounds fair really
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6957 - 2013-10-29 20:31:56 UTC
Julie Thorne wrote:
In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.

1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.

2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.

3. Extra tank is unnecessary.

Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.

4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.

So I have 3 suggestions.

1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.

2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.

3. Give some or all of the speed back.


Vargur got the option to use 1400mm like it or not still an option . now if you use 1400mm you can tell it will work very well with bastion. vargur will probably be the best ship for artillery in rubicon

the second option is pretty OP giving marauder an extra mid slot without any drawbacks. At least right now the high slot is ultility which wont affect performance of the ship.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6958 - 2013-10-29 20:59:53 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Julie Thorne wrote:
In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.

1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.

2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.

3. Extra tank is unnecessary.

Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.

4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.

So I have 3 suggestions.

1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.

2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.

3. Give some or all of the speed back.


Vargur got the option to use 1400mm like it or not still an option . now if you use 1400mm you can tell it will work very well with bastion. vargur will probably be the best ship for artillery in rubicon

the second option is pretty OP giving marauder an extra mid slot without any drawbacks. At least right now the high slot is ultility which wont affect performance of the ship.


running missions in an assault frig is still an option btw.... but as with 1400s its just not a real viable one compared to alternatives.

Like it or not, overall this is a nerf in isk per hour on level 4s

comparing TQ to rubicon vargur

If I run w/o changing anything / not taking bastion, it is a straight nerf because of mobility changes and the impact they have on AC fits.

If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps. More or less if you use bastion to free up slots, your overall dps goes down when you use the bastion module. If you dont use bastion, you are left with the nerfs given to the hull to try to help balance bastion. Outside of bastion, this extra TC gives an extra 5 points dps.. which is quickly lost via mobility differences.

The only benefits gained for 4s:
* high ewar missions
* Very specific situations in which a MJD is needed more than once every three minutes, but could not be done more effectively with a different form of prop.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#6959 - 2013-10-29 21:15:22 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
After writing all that up and checking my numbers two or three times, I wonder if someone will say "but the Kronos gets amazing range with Null."

Kronos gets amazing range with Null. No, really. On TQ Kronos is noticeably weaker than Vargur, both tank and DPS wise, while on SiSi the not-so-extensive tests suggest they are more or less on par.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#6960 - 2013-10-29 21:16:50 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps.



when i read stuff like this i seriously doubt the competence of the writer....

you ignore everythng but raw dps numbers this is just stupid.