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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6861 - 2013-10-28 15:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Mer88 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.

I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.

In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:

= 1400 fits =
1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.

= AC fits =
The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.

= Suggestions =
Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:

Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).

Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)

Add additional falloff the vargur hull.

Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur

Add additional turret dps to the vargur


i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type.
with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions.


i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.


please just balance non-bastion mode to be at the level it should be. (go go proper resists, removed self rep bonus, better fitting and dps :D)And dont nerf non-bastion... all that does is nerf the people who arent using bastion XD it doesnt balance what is perceived as the "op bastion mode"
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6862 - 2013-10-28 15:47:57 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.

I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.

In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:

= 1400 fits =
1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.

= AC fits =
The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.

= Suggestions =
Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:

Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).

Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)

Add additional falloff the vargur hull.

Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur

Add additional turret dps to the vargur


i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type.
with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions.


We've been getting power creep with weapon systems for a long time.

Lasers sucked in comparison, they got buffed.
Hybrids were then the sucky ones, they got buffed.
Missiles were then op/crappy, they got buffed/nerfed.
Now everyone thinks projectiles underperform... Wonder what's gonna happen.

CCP just needs to take all the weapon systems and revamp them all at once.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6863 - 2013-10-28 15:49:41 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.

I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.

In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:

= 1400 fits =
1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.

= AC fits =
The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.

= Suggestions =
Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:

Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).

Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)

Add additional falloff the vargur hull.

Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur

Add additional turret dps to the vargur


i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type.
with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions.


i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.



Except, the problem is bastion frees up more slots allowing more dps.
That means you'll have the highest dps, and the highest tank... On top of the longest range of any other sub cap... On top of ewar immunity...
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6864 - 2013-10-28 15:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Joe Risalo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.

I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.

In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:

= 1400 fits =
1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.

= AC fits =
The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.

= Suggestions =
Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:

Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).

Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)

Add additional falloff the vargur hull.

Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur

Add additional turret dps to the vargur


i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type.
with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions.


i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.



Except, the problem is bastion frees up more slots allowing more dps.
That means you'll have the highest dps, and the highest tank... On top of the longest range of any other sub cap... On top of ewar immunity...

perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode

and especially for shield, it doesnt free up any slots. i guess you can get rid of the damage control...but otherwise nothing. and mids are just damage application which it will have plenty of in bastion mode. So there isnt much if any extra damage, esp compared to pirate
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6865 - 2013-10-28 15:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Battle Cube wrote:
perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode




I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more viable now....
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6866 - 2013-10-28 15:57:59 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode




I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now....


hmm the marauder outside bastion is about the same as current marauder on TQ. Bastion made it seems useless since you will fit way less tank in sisi compare to TQ so it made marauder outside bastion weak.. the only nerf is they got speed reduction. but i noticed my golem has more shield hitpoints compare to TQ.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6867 - 2013-10-28 15:59:32 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode




I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now....


ive given up on bastion mode, ok so maybe some people will have a use for it, and thats fine for them. I for one, and a lot of people...are not interested in bastion mode.

I just request that non-bastion mode is balanced on its own as if bastion didnt exist. Give them good fitting, and comparable dps, or at least proper resists. I liked it when they took away the self rep bonus from the hull - i say just make bastion rep that more powerful while removing the hull bonus, and give the hull proper resists and reduce the resist bonus on bastion

then bastion mode remains unchanged, while non-bastion is usable for people who want to use it (esp people who trained for this ship, or want to train for it, but dont have a need for the ABSURDLY 'niche' role (which i still cant find) for the bastion mode)
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6868 - 2013-10-28 15:59:50 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode




I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now....


hmm the marauder outside bastion is about the same as current marauder on TQ. Bastion made it seems useless since you will fit way less tank in sisi compare to TQ so it made marauder outside bastion weak.. the only nerf is they got speed reduction. but i noticed my golem has more shield hitpoints compare to TQ.


They lost cap and recharge.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6869 - 2013-10-28 16:02:13 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode




I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now....


hmm the marauder outside bastion is about the same as current marauder on TQ. Bastion made it seems useless since you will fit way less tank in sisi compare to TQ so it made marauder outside bastion weak.. the only nerf is they got speed reduction. but i noticed my golem has more shield hitpoints compare to TQ.


They lost cap and recharge.


yeah its about the same and thats good, but the marauder needed to be balanced - bastion doesnt balance it.

Just a little tiny nudge in the direction of making non-bastion more capable of what it was doing before, like add a salvage bonus for pve, or allow it to compete with pirate for incursions :D
Vrenth
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6870 - 2013-10-28 16:22:31 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode




I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now....


ive given up on bastion mode, ok so maybe some people will have a use for it, and thats fine for them. I for one, and a lot of people...are not interested in bastion mode.

I just request that non-bastion mode is balanced on its own as if bastion didnt exist. Give them good fitting, and comparable dps, or at least proper resists. I liked it when they took away the self rep bonus from the hull - i say just make bastion rep that more powerful while removing the hull bonus, and give the hull proper resists and reduce the resist bonus on bastion

then bastion mode remains unchanged, while non-bastion is usable for people who want to use it (esp people who trained for this ship, or want to train for it, but dont have a need for the ABSURDLY 'niche' role (which i still cant find) for the bastion mode)


They based their redesign and bonuses around bastion. You are asking them essentially to make a dread useful without siege. If you are flying a marauder now instead of a pirate BS in missions, you are doing it wrong. With these MJD/tanking bonuses, it opens alot more strategy to them that makes them more viable than pirate BS.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6871 - 2013-10-28 16:44:13 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Mer88 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.

I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.

In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:

= 1400 fits =
1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.

= AC fits =
The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.

= Suggestions =
Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:

Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).

Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)

Add additional falloff the vargur hull.

Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur

Add additional turret dps to the vargur


i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type.
with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions.


Nah rails do around 11.5% more dps within optimal, have a better optimal, have less overkill, better tracking, and aren't penalized as harshly for missing.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6872 - 2013-10-28 17:09:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Vrenth wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
perhaps i should clarify - for group activities. and freeing slots for more dps means weaker tank when you are neuted or out of bastion mode, which leads to it being "bastion only" ship....im talking about NON-bastion mode




I think we've all cleared out that Marauders are almost useless outside of bastion... But, at least they're more fiable now....


ive given up on bastion mode, ok so maybe some people will have a use for it, and thats fine for them. I for one, and a lot of people...are not interested in bastion mode.

I just request that non-bastion mode is balanced on its own as if bastion didnt exist. Give them good fitting, and comparable dps, or at least proper resists. I liked it when they took away the self rep bonus from the hull - i say just make bastion rep that more powerful while removing the hull bonus, and give the hull proper resists and reduce the resist bonus on bastion

then bastion mode remains unchanged, while non-bastion is usable for people who want to use it (esp people who trained for this ship, or want to train for it, but dont have a need for the ABSURDLY 'niche' role (which i still cant find) for the bastion mode)


They based their redesign and bonuses around bastion. You are asking them essentially to make a dread useful without siege. If you are flying a marauder now instead of a pirate BS in missions, you are doing it wrong. With these MJD/tanking bonuses, it opens alot more strategy to them that makes them more viable than pirate BS.

well this ship existed before it had a 'siege' mode, so i dont see why its non-bastion mode cant have a use. And the point i was trying to make was that the marauder was supposed to be better in missions, but in fact was not, so it just needs a little tweaking to give it that niche once again - without changing bastion for people who want bastion.

theres no reason that bastion and nonbastion cant each have their own uses - similar to how t3s can through fitting do just about anything, marauders could focus on their specialty of pve through 2 different modes....

or even just focus on 2 different tanking modes, like giving high resists (and maybe even high buffer) in non-bastion mode, then selfrep (and maybe lower buffer or not-enhanced resists) in bastion mode



i guess i just dont like bastion so i want non-bastion to have a use of some kind so i can have an excuse to use the ship, as i both have it trained, and i want to continue to train it, because i like the idea of this difficult to obtain ship. I want something to continue to work towards
OmarNu Lakshmit
UNION CONFIRMED
#6873 - 2013-10-28 17:13:33 UTC

  • Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay


    • From personal mission running experience I would suggest to give Marauders 200% bonus to range of tractor beams, because often 48km's not enough to tractor cans with mission items.....

    Hope many fellows - missions runners - agree with me :D
    hmskrecik
    TransMine Group
    Gluten Free Cartel
    #6874 - 2013-10-28 17:16:55 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
    Serge SC wrote:
    [....]I'm using 2 ANPs and Bastion as tank, [....]

    Dude, you've got me thinking. The 100% bonus to active reps means that in fact with bastion it's quite feasible to cross tank marauders: shield on Kronos and Paladin, armor on Vargur and Golem. I sense a disturbance in The Force...
    chaosgrimm
    Synth Tech
    #6875 - 2013-10-28 17:47:34 UTC
    Joe Risalo wrote:

    .. bastion frees up more slots allowing more dps.
    That means you'll have the highest dps, and the highest tank... On top of the longest range of any other sub cap... On top of ewar immunity...


    Just a few comments on this. Assuming we toss all other ships out the window for a moment and just compare marauders to each other.

    Quote:

    bastion frees up more slots allowing more dps

    comparing TQ to rubicon vargur

    the best i have been able to do on the vargur is about 3-4% ~36dps dps increase(while stationary on a target around 40KM away)
    moving about 2KM makes up this difference
    considering mobility changes bastion will definitely lower total potential dps in the majority of lvl 4 mission situations
    Not to mention the 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps and that this is at no mobility while bastion is active....

    outside of bastion, this is about a 5 point dps difference, and an overall nerf considering mobility changes

    If I choose to use bastion, i am nerfed because I am stationary. If I choose not to use bastion in a class that has had soo many nerfs to try to force it's use, I miss out because of those changes (like mobility and bandwidth).
    chaosgrimm
    Synth Tech
    #6876 - 2013-10-28 18:00:16 UTC
    Battle Cube wrote:

    i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.


    please just balance non-bastion mode to be at the level it should be. (go go proper resists, removed self rep bonus, better fitting and dps :D)And dont nerf non-bastion... all that does is nerf the people who arent using bastion XD it doesnt balance what is perceived as the "op bastion mode"


    I dont know about pushing raw dps up to match pirates necessarily, but at least give them better raw dmg potential than t1 pls and thx. esp the kronos and vargur... substantial room for dmg increase before stepping on pirate toes.

    I would support an out of bastion mode style of awesomeness, take my extra utility high, and let the penalties of bastion be tied to the bastion module, but ppl have been shouting about it til blue in the face. Sadly, I dont think it is going to happen
    My Little Pyongyang
    Doomheim
    #6877 - 2013-10-28 18:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: My Little Pyongyang
    chaosgrimm wrote:
    Mer88 wrote:
    chaosgrimm wrote:
    I played a little more with the vargur and just wanted to log some feedback on the thread.

    I have decided to give up on the notion of a 'optional bastion mode' and am switching focus to making the vargur work well with limited mobility.

    In PvE, the vargur feels like it is missing something in the offensive spectrum:

    = 1400 fits =
    1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.

    = AC fits =
    The typical minmatar mobility compliments ACs well because ACs live in falloff. However, ACs don't sync well with the marauders' version of mobility, esp in bastion mode. This lack of synergy is compounded by the stacking penalities and untraditional 1:1 optimal/falloff projection bonus given by bastion.

    = Suggestions =
    Keep in mind I'm just spitballing and i am by no means saying that all of these suggestions should be done:

    Set bastion's falloff bonus to twice the value of the optimal bonus (possibly in conjunction with reducing the optimal bonus).

    Remove bastion's stacking penalty (possibly in conjunction with the prior suggestion)

    Add additional falloff the vargur hull.

    Add additional dps via bandwidth/ sentry drones to increase overall dmg at range with the vargur

    Add additional turret dps to the vargur


    i remember people cry about not able to fit 1200mm on the vargur w/o any power grid modules. now they can fit 1400mm with ease and no one is excited about it. from my knowledge 1400 dps is about the same as rail guns. except 1400 can select damage type.
    with the slow rof, the faction ammo will be very cheap so it kinda works great for missions.


    Nah rails do around 11.5% more dps within optimal, have a better optimal, have less overkill, better tracking, and aren't penalized as harshly for missing.



    The above is mostly accurate, however 11.5% does not make the artillery less viable vs rails unless you are shooting guristas or serpentis. Artillery will do more dps against angels and should be within 5% of sansha and blood raiders because of selectable damage types. The tracking curves are close enough that it doesn't matter and artillery projection is a little better over the curve, but you can use uranium to help offset that.

    The graphs below are built with known rubicon data used in EFT, all below are subject to change:

    Red : Kronos
    Blue : Vargur

    No transversal: http://i.imgur.com/uEp5aJs.jpg

    Transversal: http://i.imgur.com/rcQ7V3o.jpg

    Both are 5 damage mod builds, with identical tracking mods (1 TE, 1 SS TC), though the kronos' tank is significantly worse than the vargur's, however both are well within acceptable levels for missions. The kronos does have the ambit extension over the vargur but it's trivial.

    [Vargur, Arty]
    Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
    Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
    Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
    Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
    Tracking Enhancer II

    Gist B-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
    Large Micro Jump Drive
    Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
    Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

    Bastion Module I
    1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
    1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
    1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
    1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]

    Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
    Large Ancillary Current Router I

    [Kronos, Rails]
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer
    Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    Tracking Enhancer II

    Large Micro Jump Drive
    Gist B-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
    Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
    Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

    425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
    425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
    425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
    425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
    Bastion Module I
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]

    Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
    Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I

    Yes these builds could be blinged more, yes they could go without the cap booster but the gains from another tracking computer are minimal. They could also roll without XYZ but I built them similar to my MWD machariel setup and I also wanted to get an MJD on there somehow because ship bonuses etc. They dps about as hard as you can, and they push it almost as far as you can, another tracking computer brings the 100km dps of the vargur from 712 to 667. It's not trivial but I'd prefer the cap booster.

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3792003#post3792003 additional reading on the viability of artillery vargur.
    Strili
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #6878 - 2013-10-28 18:35:01 UTC
    I've been reading these changes and people's opinions about the subject quite closely. It seems most people really love their marauders. It takes time to get into a badass, angry looking ship like they are. I agree that perhaps outside of "bastion" mode they are not exactly shiny examples of dps. People are suggesting stuff will get done less effeciently, even in missions where it's geared toward. Hey, all the power to you to express your opinion.

    As far as the changes, I like them. Will they be PvP friendly....eh...there are some real draw backs because of how you pretty much have to play with a cookie cutter build. But for PvE, this thing will still be great.

    For those of you who suggest it will take a long time in lvl 4's, have you used a MJD very much? I played around with it alot when they first came out on a domi, just to jump around and have a good time. I put it on a vindi just for the lols to see what would happen when I stormed into a group and they all wet themselves.

    As for getting gate to gate--Think of it in Triangles. You should be able to jump twice and arrive at you destination in a very short amount of time. It takes some getting used to (the angles of direction) and what not. A-square + B-square = C-square. If the gate/destination is 50 KM away you just gotta jump at a 45degree angle compared to the gate. Then jump 45 back to the game. Bam. Even if there is no equation for it, you should be able to eyeball the triangle eventually. In a marauder you can make that 50km trip in just over 1 min and land on target.

    Just another idea how to get this idea outside the box and into a real use.

    Serge SC
    The Valhalla Project
    #6879 - 2013-10-28 19:14:22 UTC
    hmskrecik wrote:
    Serge SC wrote:
    [....]I'm using 2 ANPs and Bastion as tank, [....]

    Dude, you've got me thinking. The 100% bonus to active reps means that in fact with bastion it's quite feasible to cross tank marauders: shield on Kronos and Paladin, armor on Vargur and Golem. I sense a disturbance in The Force...

    Well, it is doable.

    Shield paladin:

    MJD+Deadspace Medium Shield Booster+Deadspace Invul+Tracking Comp

    Then lows can be DCU+4 Heat Sinks and 2 TEs.

    1 weapon rig (collision accelerator) and 1 LCDFE or EM rig for omni tank (both T2)

    You're all set. Grats, you are going against the "rules". (=

    Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #6880 - 2013-10-28 19:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
    chaosgrimm wrote:
    Battle Cube wrote:

    i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.


    please just balance non-bastion mode to be at the level it should be. (go go proper resists, removed self rep bonus, better fitting and dps :D)And dont nerf non-bastion... all that does is nerf the people who arent using bastion XD it doesnt balance what is perceived as the "op bastion mode"


    I dont know about pushing raw dps up to match pirates necessarily, but at least give them better raw dmg potential than t1 pls and thx. esp the kronos and vargur... substantial room for dmg increase before stepping on pirate toes.

    I would support an out of bastion mode style of awesomeness, take my extra utility high, and let the penalties of bastion be tied to the bastion module, but ppl have been shouting about it til blue in the face. Sadly, I dont think it is going to happen


    even just boosting out of bastion tank via resists to make it a tanky low dps ship outside of bastion....would be better than it is currently.

    I really hate how they outright refuse to give this ship more dps - the thing is that if ANY ship deserves it, it is the marauder. There is No reason that the marauder shouldn't outright outdps pirate given the same cost and the higher skill requirement.

    And power creep? This is the OPPOSITE of power creep, this is updating an old part of the game that is underpowered because of power creep in the rest of the game. Updating this ship to be Better makes sense to reverse power creep.

    but even though this all makes sense, and this ship requires so much to fly, im quite sure they will continue to give it this... "role", this "niche", and it will be nearly NEVER used in the game.

    maybe it will be in some alliance tournaments or some bullshit

    goddamnit i hate this new marauder design



    alternatively its manufacturing could be changed so that it becomes dirt cheap, that might balance it, but they sure arent going to do that.