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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1341 - 2013-10-26 05:57:24 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Frothgar wrote:
So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place.

Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this?

lol

my thoughts as well

Does everyone else have such bad policing systems?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1342 - 2013-10-26 15:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Frothgar
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Frothgar wrote:
So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place.

Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this?

lol

my thoughts as well

Does everyone else have such bad policing systems?


You can't tell me that an alliance based on "Harvesting Pubbie Tears" won't be stolen from by its own members.

You can't tell me that every moongoo holding alliance isn't going to have the same problem. There is no recruitment policy that keeps you safe.

Tell you what, how about we do a preemptive experiment.

You guys set all moons and the corperate wallets to full access, and lets see how far the "Bro code" gets you.
Wrecked Angle
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1343 - 2013-10-26 15:57:46 UTC
Frothgar wrote:


You can't tell me that an alliance based on "Harvesting Pubbie Tears" won't be stolen from by its own members.

You can't tell me that every moongoo holding alliance isn't going to have the same problem. There is no recruitment policy that keeps you safe.

Tell you what, how about we do a preemptive experiment.

You guys set all moons and the corperate wallets to full access, and lets see how far the "Bro code" gets you.


Crikey yes, you're right! I can see PL and N3 burning spies all over to run off with ~1000m3 of (not so) precious moon goo as well.. Roll
Penny Nickals
Nickals and Dimes
#1344 - 2013-10-26 17:00:07 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.



Bandwidth vs. Number: An alternative to specifically limiting the number of siphons a character can deploy would be to set up a system that would limit a character's "deployable" bandwidth, with different deployables having different bandwidth values (small siphons - 5; large siphons - 50; large station guns - 25; gate monitors - 25; covert gate monitors - 100). Seems like if you go forward with the long-term, you are going to have a large number of potential of mobile deployables. Forcing players to choose between the types they have deployed creates a system with a lot more trades:

  • Would I rather deploy 10x small mobile slow siphons that pull 60 raw, take a day to fill, and have 10% wastage; or would I rather deploy 5x small mobile fast siphons that pull 90 raw, take an hour to fill, and have 20% wastage.
  • Would I rather be able to deploy siphons to inhibit my enemy, or would I rather deploy guns/features to defend my corps/alliances POS/station.
  • Would I rather have 4-hour intelligence monitoring deployable would that notify me/corps/alliance when reds/neutrals/blues jump through gates or dock/undock from stations; or would I rather set-up a 4-hour minefield on a single gate.

Given the limited number of mobile deployables you all have, the trades wouldn't be all that meaningful now. As you add more, though, harder choices are created, creating more interesting gameplay. If you tied the bandwidth to a mobile deployables skill, as each expansion rolled out you could add more skills that increased bandwidth, maybe a progression in-line with the trade skills. Another advantage of bandwidth vs. number is that it could make specific deployables easier to balance against others. If mobile siphons are too strong, one option for balance is to increase their required bandwidth relative to other deployables. Still may need to form of capacity limiter on certain types of deployables to address some of the other concerns in this thread.

Deployable Bays; Maybe Deployables vs. Drones: Would be interesting if long-term mobile deployables had their own bays; where certain ships (e.g. minelayers/mine sweepers, moon pillagers, station managers) could specialize in them. One option for doing that is to make deployables deploy out of drone bays. Current drone mechanic really doesn't seem to provide a lot of meaningful trades/options. Would be interesting long-term if you wanted deployables, you had to trade some of that drone bay capacity. This wouldn't have to bias the game in favor in drone boats for deployables; you could give a lot of ships drone/deployable capacity without giving them drone bandwidth.
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1345 - 2013-10-26 17:16:08 UTC
Wrecked Angle wrote:
Frothgar wrote:


You can't tell me that an alliance based on "Harvesting Pubbie Tears" won't be stolen from by its own members.

You can't tell me that every moongoo holding alliance isn't going to have the same problem. There is no recruitment policy that keeps you safe.

Tell you what, how about we do a preemptive experiment.

You guys set all moons and the corperate wallets to full access, and lets see how far the "Bro code" gets you.


Crikey yes, you're right! I can see PL and N3 burning spies all over to run off with ~1000m3 of (not so) precious moon goo as well.. Roll



I don't think you quite understand. You enemies will always drop siphons, your own members will be taking from them consequence free.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1346 - 2013-10-26 21:34:15 UTC
Frothgar wrote:
Wrecked Angle wrote:
Frothgar wrote:


You can't tell me that an alliance based on "Harvesting Pubbie Tears" won't be stolen from by its own members.

You can't tell me that every moongoo holding alliance isn't going to have the same problem. There is no recruitment policy that keeps you safe.

Tell you what, how about we do a preemptive experiment.

You guys set all moons and the corperate wallets to full access, and lets see how far the "Bro code" gets you.


Crikey yes, you're right! I can see PL and N3 burning spies all over to run off with ~1000m3 of (not so) precious moon goo as well.. Roll



I don't think you quite understand. You enemies will always drop siphons, your own members will be taking from them consequence free.

Hmmm. Go around hauling thousands of m3 for a little ISK when I finally ship it to Jita to sell, shoot a siphon and get a bounty for each one that I destroy API verified, or shoot red crosses and get ISK every twenty min? Gee, I'm stummped on this one guys, help me out here.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Michael Angelo Batio
Kenshu Corporation
#1347 - 2013-10-26 23:40:41 UTC
I Love Boobies wrote:
Funny how certain entities are upset they will have to watch their POS, where they will actually have to worry about their profits now. I for one think it's a pleasant idea. Will be fun to deploy them just to mess with people. Cloaky ships, small m3... nice. Now it's the small corps chance to grief the larger entities in game. Lol



This... and lets be honest here, how many POS's doing moon mining are there in the whole game, will every single one really be effected by this?

Slight small point, if you are one of the POS owners that do NOT get hit and others producing the same crap do, doesnt that mean more profit for you?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1348 - 2013-10-27 01:21:55 UTC
Michael Angelo Batio wrote:
I Love Boobies wrote:
Funny how certain entities are upset they will have to watch their POS, where they will actually have to worry about their profits now. I for one think it's a pleasant idea. Will be fun to deploy them just to mess with people. Cloaky ships, small m3... nice. Now it's the small corps chance to grief the larger entities in game. Lol

This... and lets be honest here, how many POS's doing moon mining are there in the whole game, will every single one really be effected by this?

Slight small point, if you are one of the POS owners that do NOT get hit and others producing the same crap do, doesnt that mean more profit for you?

grr goons

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#1349 - 2013-10-27 02:14:26 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Frothgar wrote:
So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place.


Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this?

Why am I not surprised a Goonswarm FEDERATION guy is trying to make some Ad Hominem attack?


First of all, no one gives a shit what kind of fancy-pants Latin name an insult qualifies as. Secondly, in this case, it's entirely based on fact--Triumvirate was, like the original NC and others, corrupt and financially opaque.

If you'd like to submit that Goonswarm Federation is "just as bad" you'll have to somehow get rid of our API-based finance spreadsheets that are public and convince everyone that we don't make money so that people can have fun. I'm sure you'll do a good job of that Marlona, just like you've done a good job convincing me that the siphons are not in fact going to be used precisely as every GSF/CFC/reasonably intelligent person in this thread has said.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1350 - 2013-10-27 02:29:15 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Frothgar wrote:
Wrecked Angle wrote:
Frothgar wrote:


You can't tell me that an alliance based on "Harvesting Pubbie Tears" won't be stolen from by its own members.

You can't tell me that every moongoo holding alliance isn't going to have the same problem. There is no recruitment policy that keeps you safe.

Tell you what, how about we do a preemptive experiment.

You guys set all moons and the corperate wallets to full access, and lets see how far the "Bro code" gets you.


Crikey yes, you're right! I can see PL and N3 burning spies all over to run off with ~1000m3 of (not so) precious moon goo as well.. Roll



I don't think you quite understand. You enemies will always drop siphons, your own members will be taking from them consequence free.

Hmmm. Go around hauling thousands of m3 for a little ISK when I finally ship it to Jita to sell, shoot a siphon and get a bounty for each one that I destroy API verified, or shoot red crosses and get ISK every twenty min? Gee, I'm stummped on this one guys, help me out here.
Can I claim the Goon offered spyhon bounties, it will more likely pay better than anchoring them. Big smile

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1351 - 2013-10-27 03:14:53 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Can I claim the Goon offered spyhon bounties, it will more likely pay better than anchoring them. Big smile

For a small security deposit, I can get you in on those Goon siphon bounties.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#1352 - 2013-10-27 05:25:03 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.


I still want to hear you use the word "skill" in relation to this siphon deployable. EVE is, after all, a game featuring character sheets with character skillz on them. Skillz mean that characters are different from each other, in terms of what they can do, and how well they can do what they can do.

But not here. In this particularly case, siphoning, everyone is uniquely alike in that they are all equally good at doing it. Everywhere else, in EVE, there's a skill to differentiate and individualize characters, but for some reason not here.

What is that reason?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1353 - 2013-10-27 05:55:30 UTC
Salpad wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.


I still want to hear you use the word "skill" in relation to this siphon deployable. EVE is, after all, a game featuring character sheets with character skillz on them. Skillz mean that characters are different from each other, in terms of what they can do, and how well they can do what they can do.

But not here. In this particularly case, siphoning, everyone is uniquely alike in that they are all equally good at doing it. Everywhere else, in EVE, there's a skill to differentiate and individualize characters, but for some reason not here.

What is that reason?
Is a one size fits all griefing tool. Skill requirement = the ability to fly anything with greater than 10m cargo hold, or shuttle if you have 1 target.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1354 - 2013-10-27 08:22:46 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Frothgar wrote:
So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place.


Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this?

Why am I not surprised a Goonswarm FEDERATION guy is trying to make some Ad Hominem attack?


First of all, no one gives a shit what kind of fancy-pants Latin name an insult qualifies as. Secondly, in this case, it's entirely based on fact--Triumvirate was, like the original NC and others, corrupt and financially opaque.

If you'd like to submit that Goonswarm Federation is "just as bad" you'll have to somehow get rid of our API-based finance spreadsheets that are public and convince everyone that we don't make money so that people can have fun. I'm sure you'll do a good job of that Marlona, just like you've done a good job convincing me that the siphons are not in fact going to be used precisely as every GSF/CFC/reasonably intelligent person in this thread has said.

The fact you guys rely so heavily on API is why you guys are furious about having to actually have eyes out in your space to watch for the siphons. What can I say, but perhaps you guys should undock and go check them on your own initiative instead of waiting for some API finance team telling you what to do.

Free will bro. Embrace it. Blink
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1355 - 2013-10-27 10:30:32 UTC
> joke is made at the expense of a corp
> marlona sky falsely describes it as an 'ad hominem attack'
> marlona sky makes an ad hominem attack
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1356 - 2013-10-27 11:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Salpad wrote:
I still want to hear you use the word "skill" in relation to this siphon deployable. EVE is, after all, a game featuring character sheets with character skillz on them. Skillz mean that characters are different from each other, in terms of what they can do, and how well they can do what they can do.

But not here. In this particularly case, siphoning, everyone is uniquely alike in that they are all equally good at doing it. Everywhere else, in EVE, there's a skill to differentiate and individualize characters, but for some reason not here.

What is that reason?

CCP explicitly wants you to use trial alts to drop these. From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3778775#post3778775 :

CCP Paradox wrote:
And as somebody said, "alts". These units require no skills to deploy, so anyone can deploy them.

I guess more alts means more subs for CCP (assuming at least some people are too dumb to realize you can just recycle trial alts, you don't actually have to sub anything to check on your POSes.)
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1357 - 2013-10-27 13:54:20 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Frothgar wrote:
So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place.


Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this?

Why am I not surprised a Goonswarm FEDERATION guy is trying to make some Ad Hominem attack?


First of all, no one gives a shit what kind of fancy-pants Latin name an insult qualifies as. Secondly, in this case, it's entirely based on fact--Triumvirate was, like the original NC and others, corrupt and financially opaque.

If you'd like to submit that Goonswarm Federation is "just as bad" you'll have to somehow get rid of our API-based finance spreadsheets that are public and convince everyone that we don't make money so that people can have fun. I'm sure you'll do a good job of that Marlona, just like you've done a good job convincing me that the siphons are not in fact going to be used precisely as every GSF/CFC/reasonably intelligent person in this thread has said.

The fact you guys rely so heavily on API is why you guys are furious about having to actually have eyes out in your space to watch for the siphons. What can I say, but perhaps you guys should undock and go check them on your own initiative instead of waiting for some API finance team telling you what to do.

Free will bro. Embrace it. Blink
Why yes, I too want to have a second job managing my POS after I get off work. Thank you for more tedious work that I have to do. FREE WILL!!!

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#1358 - 2013-10-27 15:03:53 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
The fact you guys rely so heavily on API is why you guys are furious about having to actually have eyes out in your space to watch for the siphons. What can I say, but perhaps you guys should undock and go check them on your own initiative instead of waiting for some API finance team telling you what to do.

Free will bro. Embrace it. Blink


You dumb sod. We have more manpower than any other group in the game.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1359 - 2013-10-27 15:09:45 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Salpad wrote:
I still want to hear you use the word "skill" in relation to this siphon deployable. EVE is, after all, a game featuring character sheets with character skillz on them. Skillz mean that characters are different from each other, in terms of what they can do, and how well they can do what they can do.

But not here. In this particularly case, siphoning, everyone is uniquely alike in that they are all equally good at doing it. Everywhere else, in EVE, there's a skill to differentiate and individualize characters, but for some reason not here.

What is that reason?

CCP explicitly wants you to use trial alts to drop these. From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3778775#post3778775 :

CCP Paradox wrote:
And as somebody said, "alts". These units require no skills to deploy, so anyone can deploy them.

I guess more alts means more subs for CCP (assuming at least some people are too dumb to realize you can just recycle trial alts, you don't actually have to sub anything to check on your POSes.)

mmm alts !!!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1360 - 2013-10-27 22:24:49 UTC
TL;DR of the last 60 pages:

CFC doesn't like it when people can steal their moon goo. :shocking: