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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#6801 - 2013-10-26 18:19:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ok, checking torp range on test.

So, if you wish, you can get 80km with one of each, or 74km with speed. Granted, this is on paper.

If you don't want that much range, you can fit 1 of either and get speed at 66km, or 2km more range...

66km is respectable, while 80km is freaking awesome for torps.... Hell, 74km with speed ain't no joke either.


Remember, this is range skills at 5 with no range implants

could you pls dont hype about those huge ranges you get with javs Ugh if you ever thinking about those your doing it wrong
the real benefits of torps vs cruises are in t1 navy and rage torps and those dont have the ranges to be fully utilized with bastion and mjd effectively - with 1 range rig you often end with no sufficent range to combat ships on 50km and adding second range rig kills you damage application even with 3 tps because they get stacking penalized hard >_> its allways a loose loose situation with torps
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6802 - 2013-10-26 18:26:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Vinyl 41 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ok, checking torp range on test.

So, if you wish, you can get 80km with one of each, or 74km with speed. Granted, this is on paper.

If you don't want that much range, you can fit 1 of either and get speed at 66km, or 2km more range...

66km is respectable, while 80km is freaking awesome for torps.... Hell, 74km with speed ain't no joke either.


Remember, this is range skills at 5 with no range implants

could you pls dont hype about those huge ranges you get with javs Ugh if you ever thinking about those your doing it wrong
the real benefits of torps vs cruises are in t1 navy and rage torps and those dont have the ranges to be fully utilized with bastion and mjd effectively - with 1 range rig you often end with no sufficent range to combat ships on 50km and adding second range rig kills you damage application even with 3 tps because they get stacking penalized hard >_> its allways a loose loose situation with torps


I've actually flown a torp golem in lvl 4's before.
Javs are almost required to properly hit frigs and cruisers with effective damage.

Also, a volley does so much damage that even against bss, rage torps have a ton of overkill.
At one point when I used to fly it, I actually considered no longer carrying rage torps, as the difference in kills was 1 volley or less.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6803 - 2013-10-26 18:31:16 UTC
I'll put this as delicately as I can: torpedoes just suck. It doesn't matter how much Bastion extends the range or whether you use Javelin torpedoes. It's not the damage, and it's not even necessarily the explosion radius. It's the speed, plain and simple. These should travel at about 25-50% faster than cruise missiles, even if that means radically adjusting the fight time to compensate so that you end up with the same range. And I imagine with that one change they'd become an interesting alternative even without any kind of damage or rate of fire buff (although increasing the rate of fire by 10-15% certainly wouldn't hurt, either).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#6804 - 2013-10-26 20:48:22 UTC
The thing about torps is that javs do same damage as navy at same stats just higher range. They do not I repeat do not apply damage any better than navy or t1
Shivanthar
#6805 - 2013-10-26 21:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I'll put this as delicately as I can: torpedoes just suck. It doesn't matter how much Bastion extends the range or whether you use Javelin torpedoes. It's not the damage, and it's not even necessarily the explosion radius. It's the speed, plain and simple. These should travel at about 25-50% faster than cruise missiles, even if that means radically adjusting the fight time to compensate so that you end up with the same range. And I imagine with that one change they'd become an interesting alternative even without any kind of damage or rate of fire buff (although increasing the rate of fire by 10-15% certainly wouldn't hurt, either).


While your argument is true, solving it by speeding up torps will mess up the big picture. No torpedo should be faster than a missile.

In one of my earlier posts, I tried to imitate this behavior by giving warning to devs about numbers. Digging too much number game might end up screwing whole picture up. To put in exampe:

What you're saying is: this must be %25-50 faster than this even it means replacing engine with this. So the torpedo-cruise balance should be in place afterwards!

Edit: Increasing flight time would be perfectly ok instead.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6806 - 2013-10-26 21:44:30 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
The thing about torps is that javs do same damage as navy at same stats just higher range. They do not I repeat do not apply damage any better than navy or t1

I think we can all agree to some extent: torpedoes need some love.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6807 - 2013-10-26 22:03:00 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
The thing about torps is that javs do same damage as navy at same stats just higher range. They do not I repeat do not apply damage any better than navy or t1



Uh, isn't greater range considered applying better damage when everything else is basically the same?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6808 - 2013-10-26 22:05:54 UTC
Regardless of how CCP feels on the matter, I still think that torps should be able to reach at least somewhat further than HAMs on an unbonused hull.

For a Marauder, 50km torps while in Bastion should be completely possible - especially since Bastion cruises go 240km+.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6809 - 2013-10-26 23:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Joe Risalo wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Uh, isn't greater range considered applying better damage when everything else is basically the same?

If ammunition cost isn't a consideration, I would say so. I actually prefer missile velocity, even if it means a bit of a range penalty.

[quote=Alvatore DiMarco]Regardless of how CCP feels on the matter, I still think that torps should be able to reach at least somewhat further than HAMs on an unbonused hull. For a Marauder, 50km torps while in Bastion should be completely possible - especially since Bastion cruises go 240km+.

I tend to agree.

Scourge heavy assault = 2250 m/sec @ 4.0 s, 10k base range
Scourge torpedo = 1500 m/s @ 6.0 s, 9k base range
Scourge cruise missile = 4700 m/s @ 14.0 s, 65.8k base range

I'd love to see something radical for torpedos like this:

Scourge torpedo = 8000 m/s @ 1.5 s, 12k base range

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6810 - 2013-10-26 23:12:31 UTC
is there any hope for giving the hull itself increased damage output, then having the bastion module reduce that when in bastion mode?

with these changes, the ship is basically a bastion ship. There is no reason to not be in bastion module except to move.... in addition it would be nice to be able to use the ship in situations where constant movement or RR is required (like groups, or even incursions....)

My request... is to give the hull a damage bonus (i dont know, an additional 20%? ) and then have the bastion module reduce damage output by that same percentage. I guess i dont like the idea of bastion being completely and unequivocally better than not bastion.

it would add unpredictability for pvp, and utility for pve.

im not gonna lie, i just really want a reason to use these in incursions. And with bastion module..... they can not be used in incursions. Even if they can tank it, their dps is not good enough to compare to pirate. Even if their dps is the same (over all as a fleet) compared to a pirate fleet, you are going to have issues like no drone bunny, no hackers, no specialized ships because you need reps for those guys and if you have 1 logi your going to need at least one other. Then you have the problem of actually organizing at least 10 people who have marauders to get into a fleet and stay together for a few hours, god help you if anyone leaves. Then these problems escalate exponentially when you try to do assaults or HQs - because Then you cant get players who have the skills and the ships, you need even MORE logies if you want specialized ships, and the incoming dps to be tanked is going to be worse, so you will probably need to sacrifice dps for tank on the fittings. Lets say you are capable of doing this: then you become very susceptible to be contested, and will make no isk regardless of the challenge of creating such a useless fleet.
Also ive heard npcs cant stop you from MJDing, dont know if that extends to incursion sansha, it probably does, so people probably wont die if they have MJDs, but then you have the issue of low dps due to bad range in large sites where typically, you would move. Because the players are independent in a fleet like this, some might not have MJDs or some may dualprop, but whats going to happen is a very spread fleet - leading to spread out sansha - leading to even slower dps.

i think that a small change on the hull for added dps OUTSIDE of bastion, could make a whole lot of players happy with the change - players who liked the marauders before would love it, and people who dont like bastion would love it. i would love it...
give me love.
love me.
; |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6811 - 2013-10-26 23:21:19 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
is there any hope for giving the hull itself increased damage output, then having the bastion module reduce that when in bastion mode?

with these changes, the ship is basically a bastion ship. There is no reason to not be in bastion module except to move.... in addition it would be nice to be able to use the ship in situations where constant movement or RR is required (like groups, or even incursions....)

Honestly? I wouldn't pin your hopes on it... More than a few of us have suggested a RoF bonus, a heat absorption bonus (so could run weapons overloaded), a small damage bonus, etc. Marauders were always the best active tanks, and now with Bastion more so.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6812 - 2013-10-26 23:25:11 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
is there any hope for giving the hull itself increased damage output, then having the bastion module reduce that when in bastion mode?

with these changes, the ship is basically a bastion ship. There is no reason to not be in bastion module except to move.... in addition it would be nice to be able to use the ship in situations where constant movement or RR is required (like groups, or even incursions....)

Honestly? I wouldn't pin your hopes on it... More than a few of us have suggested a RoF bonus, a heat absorption bonus (so could run weapons overloaded), a small damage bonus, etc. Marauders were always the best active tanks, and now with Bastion more so.


:( yeah i know. It still feels like they arent listening to our input anyway. Looks like they posted this radical change to the ship, but also a bunch of nerfs to dronebay, hitpoints, speed - only so they can Un-nerf them later to appease those who dont like the changes, which in the end still leaves the radical changes.... un....changed....

Like a little girl asking for a pony when they just want a cat....

But even if these were legitimate responses to our input, it didn't change anything meaningful.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6813 - 2013-10-26 23:42:15 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
:( yeah i know. It still feels like they arent listening to our input anyway. Looks like they posted this radical change to the ship, but also a bunch of nerfs to dronebay, hitpoints, speed - only so they can Un-nerf them later to appease those who dont like the changes, which in the end still leaves the radical changes.... un....changed....

Like a little girl asking for a pony when they just want a cat....

But even if these were legitimate responses to our input, it didn't change anything meaningful.

As I posted a way back, I think a lot of the design criteria was locked in stone: Bastion, MJD and the animation. Maybe there's a hidden role for them that's yet to materialize. Out of the proposed changes, the third iteration is the best.

Unrelated, I do agree with the comments on the Vargur animation lacking a bit. Personally, I think they should change the sliding metal plates to yellow feathers so that Bastion turns it into a giant chicken.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
#6814 - 2013-10-26 23:59:25 UTC

Pulse Paladin with Bastion and 2x Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computers with Scorch reaches 96km with 900+dps. On the other hand, Tachyon Paladin with the same setup and Ultraviolet or Xray (same range) does more damage. What were you saying about not wanting pulses to overstep tachs?

On the other hand, the Vargur with AC and Arty both fare considerably worse than the Paladin in any situation that requires damage at longer ranges (independant of NPC type). Please, give the Vargur more damage to mitigate this (I can't hit 900 dps with ACs at 90km, I can barely push 200 dps at that range, and that's if I hit with all the falloff). Not even arties can match Pulse DPS at range...Vargur sorely needs more damage to remain competitive.

The only reason I find why I'd use the Vargur over the Paladin is VS Angels or Guristas, where I can change my damage type to fix that. In all other situations, the Paladin fares FAR better.

Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6815 - 2013-10-27 00:01:13 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
:( yeah i know. It still feels like they arent listening to our input anyway. Looks like they posted this radical change to the ship, but also a bunch of nerfs to dronebay, hitpoints, speed - only so they can Un-nerf them later to appease those who dont like the changes, which in the end still leaves the radical changes.... un....changed....

Like a little girl asking for a pony when they just want a cat....

But even if these were legitimate responses to our input, it didn't change anything meaningful.

As I posted a way back, I think a lot of the design criteria was locked in stone: Bastion, MJD and the animation. Maybe there's a hidden role for them that's yet to materialize. Out of the proposed changes, the third iteration is the best.

Unrelated, I do agree with the comments on the Vargur animation lacking a bit. Personally, I think they should change the sliding metal plates to yellow feathers so that Bastion turns it into a giant chicken.


meh. i dont like the huge tank bonus, but i still think a huge buffer would be better than huge solo tank. Then throw a aggro modifier module into existance and on the ship so it can be the tank, then give paladins lay on hands, then make new ships called rogues, hunters, mages, then change sansha into the lich king
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6816 - 2013-10-27 00:27:43 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
meh. i dont like the huge tank bonus, but i still think a huge buffer would be better than huge solo tank. Then throw a aggro modifier module into existance and on the ship so it can be the tank, then give paladins lay on hands, then make new ships called rogues, hunters, mages, then change sansha into the lich king

Just over three weeks to Rubicon, I think you have to learn to accept it at this point.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6817 - 2013-10-27 00:35:32 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
meh. i dont like the huge tank bonus, but i still think a huge buffer would be better than huge solo tank. Then throw a aggro modifier module into existance and on the ship so it can be the tank, then give paladins lay on hands, then make new ships called rogues, hunters, mages, then change sansha into the lich king

Just over three weeks to Rubicon, I think you have to learn to accept it at this point.

ah well. I think i'll use these to quadbox (or more) L4s for the lulz. Ive done spider tanked vargurs before, but it was a ***** to micromanage.

i guess i'll try to throw together some non-bastion fittings and see how they fair as incursion fits.

it makes me sad because i want the candy that is the transformation animation (hence the only reason i would even use it in L4s)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6818 - 2013-10-27 01:07:02 UTC
I just want a black Raven. Golem is getting close...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6819 - 2013-10-27 01:14:06 UTC
huh, just checked out a video of the animations (heh, before i did that i got the test server client up and tried using my bonus skillpoints only to find it would still take another 2 days to get the skill to test the module)

well... esp the vargur... was.... disapointing. the other 2 i saw were ok. shifting parts on kronos looked cool but ended in a ship that looks exactly the same.

Guess i wont be missing out on much
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6820 - 2013-10-27 02:12:33 UTC
Serge SC wrote:

Pulse Paladin with Bastion and 2x Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computers with Scorch reaches 96km with 900+dps. On the other hand, Tachyon Paladin with the same setup and Ultraviolet or Xray (same range) does more damage. What were you saying about not wanting pulses to overstep tachs?

On the other hand, the Vargur with AC and Arty both fare considerably worse than the Paladin in any situation that requires damage at longer ranges (independant of NPC type). Please, give the Vargur more damage to mitigate this (I can't hit 900 dps with ACs at 90km, I can barely push 200 dps at that range, and that's if I hit with all the falloff). Not even arties can match Pulse DPS at range...Vargur sorely needs more damage to remain competitive.

The only reason I find why I'd use the Vargur over the Paladin is VS Angels or Guristas, where I can change my damage type to fix that. In all other situations, the Paladin fares FAR better.


I would say the golem fairs better than any other marauder when it comes to bastion.