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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6641 - 2013-10-24 07:36:14 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Do NPC's still use defender missiles? I haven't seen that happen in quite some time... Straight

All the time.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6642 - 2013-10-24 08:53:19 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Paladin looks like this currently on sissi, probably a work in progress thing for bastion mode:

The broken paint job: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1310/2013.10.23.21.21.46.png

The floating guns: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1310/2013.10.23.21.20.26.png

Edit:

Golem in space: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1310/2013.10.23.21.34.08.png

Ship Preview(got a bit more light on it): http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1310/2013.10.23.21.35.36.png


Great "new" model of Paladin... the bottom side with bastion ding-dongs looks... less "realistic" and flat than on original Apoc. Also what are they doing to colors? Hope they invert golden with red... then the new absolution with harbi hull would not look like an armoured tampon...
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6643 - 2013-10-24 09:10:53 UTC
Right now i can only speak again for my Vargur and torp-golem, because i am not able to fly Kronos anymore on SISI and my Cruise golem is alright. I re-read CCP Ytterbiums text and i am still astonished about some things.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
...
1. Why buffing those hulls?

  • As mentioned here and based on your feedback, we realized the hulls have been overnerfed in iteration 1 next to the benefits given by Bastion.

    • ...

    2. Why having a slighly nerfed max velocity next their tech I counterparts?

  • Those hulls are the very epitome of tanking, through the Bastion module. For balance purposes, they have to pay for that somehow. Max velocity nerf is a good way to compensate, especially when considering the fact they have MJDs at their disposal to hop around the battlefield. However, the first speed nerf was a bit harsh, which is why we are mitigating it by increasing their max velocity a bit next to iteration 1.

    • ...

    3. Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?

  • We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.

    • ...



    1.) Thats the problem nerfed to the benefits given by Bastion. Unnerf the ship and decrease the extreme impact the Bastion still has. A lot of people would like to see T2 resists on a T2 ship. Even the command ship bonus would be alright if bastion comes with DCII bonus.

    I do not like to have multiple slots free because of increased tank, but to have to use bastion for not being so fragile.

    2.) Those hulls were the very epitome of tanking even without bastion. I know no Marauder pilot pre rubicon who said, OMG my marauder gets into a lot trouble through lvl 4 NPCs.

    What i need is to get as fast as possible into the crowed of npcs (ac vargur, torp golem) and then to activate bastion. If i have enemies at 60km I would use MJD to be 40km behind them, but i still would use ab to fly into them. Only then i would activate bastion

    And to reduce vargurs speed from 130 to 110 is still harsh.

    3.) The argument using a paladin with huge improvement of optimal is no good when you compare it to ac vargur and torp golem.
    Caellach Marellus
    Stormcrows
    #6644 - 2013-10-24 09:34:47 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Caellach Marellus wrote:
    The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry.

    Marauders: n00b and improved...


    Oh very much so, the tank is broken for PvE purposes, with the combine of high resists and extreme amounts of rep per cycle, it's completely open to being abusable. Suicide jumping into what were previously high DPS epic arc missions with a "zero f##ks given" attitude is now a valid tactic.

    You have to do something very wrong to lose one of these ships now. But as long as they stay with that beastly tank, there's no reason to not combine short range guns and ammo with the MJD for a higher kill speed. Considering the actual time it takes to then drop the rats, the active time you need to cycle your repper is rather low, which saves on cap/cap boosters/cargo hold.

    When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
    Hell Bitch
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #6645 - 2013-10-24 10:31:54 UTC
    Just been watching the bastion transformation on youtube, can't get on test server whilst at work, i know how dare they.

    Not really a transformation, more like a couple of bits move or slide. Hopefully its not finished yet.

    The golem Needs moar missiles, like this.
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #6646 - 2013-10-24 10:59:22 UTC
    Caellach Marellus wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Caellach Marellus wrote:
    The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry.

    Marauders: n00b and improved...


    Oh very much so, the tank is broken for PvE purposes, with the combine of high resists and extreme amounts of rep per cycle, it's completely open to being abusable. Suicide jumping into what were previously high DPS epic arc missions with a "zero f##ks given" attitude is now a valid tactic.

    You have to do something very wrong to lose one of these ships now. But as long as they stay with that beastly tank, there's no reason to not combine short range guns and ammo with the MJD for a higher kill speed. Considering the actual time it takes to then drop the rats, the active time you need to cycle your repper is rather low, which saves on cap/cap boosters/cargo hold.



    They can stil be broken rather easily by neuts.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Rikimaru Ichikawa
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #6647 - 2013-10-24 12:13:20 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Caellach Marellus wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Caellach Marellus wrote:
    The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry.

    Marauders: n00b and improved...


    Oh very much so, the tank is broken for PvE purposes, with the combine of high resists and extreme amounts of rep per cycle, it's completely open to being abusable. Suicide jumping into what were previously high DPS epic arc missions with a "zero f##ks given" attitude is now a valid tactic.

    You have to do something very wrong to lose one of these ships now. But as long as they stay with that beastly tank, there's no reason to not combine short range guns and ammo with the MJD for a higher kill speed. Considering the actual time it takes to then drop the rats, the active time you need to cycle your repper is rather low, which saves on cap/cap boosters/cargo hold.



    They can stil be broken rather easily by neuts.


    which makes me wonder if in bastion then tey should be able to receive cap as well?
    Gloredon
    zzzNightmarezzz
    #6648 - 2013-10-24 13:22:13 UTC
    Ok, glad to see the Marauders are back on Sisi, time to play.

    Paladin: Thoroughly unimpressed by the Bastion mode transformation. And the paint job is just incredibad. The paint job needed no tweaking, it was fine before. Hopefully this is WIP and the paint will bo back to the original, not this horrible interpretation of a Red/Gold crazy camoflage. Did someone forget to tell the art department that Amarr don't do camoflage? If that's what we're getting for the Bastion mode transformation, ok, but it ins't really very impressive. Disappointed would be the word.

    It was bad enough when the (IMO) great Apoc hull got replaced without need for this uglier version we have now, but I guess seeing Bastion mode in action now might explain partly the reasoning behind that change. It seemed like one of those, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' situations before. After nearly a year flying that hull, it still looks bad to me. Fix that paint.

    Kronos: Ship looks good, but I lost the ability to use bastion again on Sisi, I'll fix that later for further testing. I would probably go with the blaster build, but I've got large T2 rails trained up and I'm going to test both. With blasters, I know the DPS will out-do a Mach's, but the range is less, even in Bastion, but it's probably workable, with some triangulation using MJD.

    Vargur, It works fine, I'm hoping once I fix my high energy issues that the bastion mode will be more than some armor covering the sails? No pretty lights for Minmatar like the others? If that's final, it makes me sad.

    Golem: I don't fly them, but I do like the new hull (I've always despised the Raven hull, this is an improvement). The flat head doesn't look bad to me, but I can imagine if you're used to flying Ravens, you might wish for the 'normal' Raven head over it, as a matter of you get used to it. I'd say, get used to it. Pictures I've seen of the Bastion mode transform make it the best of all, but again, they aren't as exciting as Fozzie seemed to try to portray in the announcement video. Sorry Fozzie.

    Bottom line: I will probably use them. But Not the Paladin without fixing the paint job. Horrible.
    chaosgrimm
    Synth Tech
    #6649 - 2013-10-24 13:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
    Joe Risalo wrote:

    Uhh, I might just be tired, but it doesn't appear that you countered any of my arguments very well, if at all.....
    I read it two or three times...
    I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't see a good counter argument....

    Here are some terms you may want to research. They should help clear up why many of your prior arguments were poor:

    Argumentum ad antiquitatem
    Argumentum ad numerum
    Argumentum ad populum
    Argumentum ad verecundiam
    Serge SC
    The Valhalla Project
    #6650 - 2013-10-24 13:32:35 UTC
    Marauders can Bastion and Cyno at the same time...that's an interesting mix if done properly.

    Since you're already self-tackled, mix as well keep there, buffer/over-tank it and allow people to jump in, coupled with the decent damage (of the paladin), perhaps they're not as useless...although, who would cyno with a 1+bill ship, and remain 10 minutes stuck there...

    Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
    Serge SC
    The Valhalla Project
    #6651 - 2013-10-24 13:43:17 UTC
    Some feedback from the transformations:

    Golem: looks nice opening those "flaps" or "air brakes". Not much to say there.

    Kronos: mixed on this one, its not nearly as epic as one would've thought.

    Paladin: I kinda like it? I dislike the hull. Ever since the Apoc got redone, I lost my beautiful thin and slim elegant Paladin...but I can live with this better than the fat-so version.

    Vargur: Errr...question, why do all ships "open", while the Vargur "closes"? Most open to expose parts (ironically) while getting tankier, but the Vargur gets plated and armored (on a shield ship). It makes the most sense though, as they become tanking beasts, the other 3 expose parts (and feel like they might do more damage), but the Vargur deploys metal plates on the wingy bits.

    The general consensus though is disappointment. The changes are not dramatic enough, not obvious enough. At first glance they look like I forgot to move rather than I'm forced.

    Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
    Hell Bitch
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #6652 - 2013-10-24 14:15:22 UTC
    Serge SC wrote:
    Some feedback from the transformations:

    The general consensus though is disappointment. The changes are not dramatic enough, not obvious enough. At first glance they look like I forgot to move rather than I'm forced.


    Agree'd, having seen them it makes me wonder if my car has entered bastion mode just cause the boot is open :(
    DSpite Culhach
    #6653 - 2013-10-24 14:43:08 UTC
    So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death?

    I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
    Caellach Marellus
    Stormcrows
    #6654 - 2013-10-24 14:56:52 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Caellach Marellus wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Caellach Marellus wrote:
    The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry.

    Marauders: n00b and improved...


    Oh very much so, the tank is broken for PvE purposes, with the combine of high resists and extreme amounts of rep per cycle, it's completely open to being abusable. Suicide jumping into what were previously high DPS epic arc missions with a "zero f##ks given" attitude is now a valid tactic.

    You have to do something very wrong to lose one of these ships now. But as long as they stay with that beastly tank, there's no reason to not combine short range guns and ammo with the MJD for a higher kill speed. Considering the actual time it takes to then drop the rats, the active time you need to cycle your repper is rather low, which saves on cap/cap boosters/cargo hold.



    They can stil be broken rather easily by neuts.


    Yeah, but as I said this is a PvE setup, you can fit a cap booster, pulse the repper with the cap cycles (which is still more than enough) and focus fire the neutships first.

    When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
    Lin Xou
    The Explodables
    #6655 - 2013-10-24 15:53:57 UTC
    Can we change the high energy physics skill to a skill that is relevant? Like tactical weapon configuration as it is classed as siege module? I hate training combat pilots in esoteric science skills for no reason. At least confirm that this skill is definitely required instead of vague “train at your own risk”. That has to be an easy one to confirm Big smile
    chaosgrimm
    Synth Tech
    #6656 - 2013-10-24 16:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
    Lin Xou wrote:
    Can we change the high energy physics skill to a skill that is relevant? Like tactical weapon configuration as it is classed as siege module? I hate training combat pilots in esoteric science skills for no reason. At least confirm that this skill is definitely required instead of vague “train at your own risk”. That has to be an easy one to confirm Big smile

    Very true. Personally agree with wep config 1 or marauders 4
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #6657 - 2013-10-24 16:22:59 UTC
    Serge SC wrote:
    Some feedback from the transformations:

    Golem: looks nice opening those "flaps" or "air brakes". Not much to say there.

    Kronos: mixed on this one, its not nearly as epic as one would've thought.

    Paladin: I kinda like it? I dislike the hull. Ever since the Apoc got redone, I lost my beautiful thin and slim elegant Paladin...but I can live with this better than the fat-so version.

    Vargur: Errr...question, why do all ships "open", while the Vargur "closes"? Most open to expose parts (ironically) while getting tankier, but the Vargur gets plated and armored (on a shield ship). It makes the most sense though, as they become tanking beasts, the other 3 expose parts (and feel like they might do more damage), but the Vargur deploys metal plates on the wingy bits.

    The general consensus though is disappointment. The changes are not dramatic enough, not obvious enough. At first glance they look like I forgot to move rather than I'm forced.


    that armour should enclose all the wingy bits and maybe a little more at various parts of the ship

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #6658 - 2013-10-24 17:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
    Gloredon wrote:


    Kronos: Ship looks good, but I lost the ability to use bastion again on Sisi, I'll fix that later for further testing. I would probably go with the blaster build, but I've got large T2 rails trained up and I'm going to test both. With blasters, I know the DPS will out-do a Mach's, but the range is less, even in Bastion, but it's probably workable, with some triangulation using MJD.



    I have an effective range of 70km on my blasters. I can hit stuff out to 100km which has proven somewhat confusing to many a frigate and the tracking is great.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #6659 - 2013-10-24 18:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
    DSpite Culhach wrote:
    So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death?

    I like your thinking!! I've now officially changed my position on Marauders. Twisted

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Shivanthar
    #6660 - 2013-10-24 19:08:04 UTC
    DSpite Culhach wrote:
    So is the new tactic to drop into people running gate camps, turn on Bastion, activate a Target Spectrum Breaker and FoF them to death?


    I must admit that this post is heavily underrated :)
    +1

    _Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.