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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6621 - 2013-10-23 21:09:13 UTC
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:
New Paladin is on sisi, although somehow, CCP forgot to seed the bastion modules.. lol
Also, guns are floating off the hull.
As for the change, I like it, but really think the paladin needs MORE GOLD, now its mostly grey and red.

What does it look like now?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#6622 - 2013-10-23 21:25:28 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Paladin looks like this currently on sissi, probably a work in progress thing for bastion mode:

The broken paint job: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1310/2013.10.23.21.21.46.png

The floating guns: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1310/2013.10.23.21.20.26.png

Edit:

Golem in space: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1310/2013.10.23.21.34.08.png

Ship Preview(got a bit more light on it): http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1310/2013.10.23.21.35.36.png

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6623 - 2013-10-23 21:29:32 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Paladin looks like this currently on sissi, probably a work in progress thing for bastion mode:

Cool, thanks! Can someone post the new Golem?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
ivan veldspar
Luxor Research
#6624 - 2013-10-23 22:42:07 UTC
just a question to train marauders it takes a lot longer to train than any other battleship I trained it and was really dis appointed I keep seeing notes that you don't want them to out damage pirate ships with all that training I want the best battleship I came to the end on the skill que after training spent a billion isk and it was crap and now your going to nerf it where it cant fly without the bastion module way to go
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6625 - 2013-10-23 22:54:45 UTC
why do they keep changing the golem now it looks like too dark to see anything in space. They need to give more blinky lights to the ship ffs
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6626 - 2013-10-23 22:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I like the choice of grey over the beige on the Golem, but can we please put the black accents in as well? It looks too washed out now. Good grief, at this rate CCP is going to kill this ship on looks alone!

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#6627 - 2013-10-24 00:21:16 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
The fourth mag stab on a Kronos is seriously little increase in DPS, 50-60 at best. I swapped that out for an RF TE.

Between max skills, Faction TE/TC (scripted) I'm hitting out to decent ranges with null, though with most NPCs having this obsession with hugging my face they're pretty much fighting in void range.

Rail range is pretty much nullified by the fact you can MJD into blaster range of far off ships without breaking a sweat, considering you can be locking them up as you spool or even before you engage MJD mode, soon as you land, deploy bastion and engage.


With the extra mobility and boosted gun range, while the old school "tank and spank" Kronos is still a viable option, you can get far more DPS, and increased killspeed in taking a mobile blaster option. The reason most people are complaining about that is because they don't want to actively fly, which is odd, because it actually makes missions slightly less dull.

I'd rather have a 4th stacking penalized damage mod then 4th stacking penalized tracking mod. with 2 tcs and bastion that TE is the 4th mod.


and 30-70km is the kill range I'm mostly worried about, which is why I love using tachyons on my paladin and rails on my kronos. and is a set of ranges where I don't see a mjd having much help for blasters.

and I love actively flying, which is why the mach is one of my favorite ships. A slow ass blaster kronos well.... I'm not excited for that. (okay I think it will be pretty awesome at damsel, and maybe a few others, although I'm thinking a conflag paladin will be better at most of that)

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#6628 - 2013-10-24 00:36:29 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
The fourth mag stab on a Kronos is seriously little increase in DPS, 50-60 at best. I swapped that out for an RF TE.

Between max skills, Faction TE/TC (scripted) I'm hitting out to decent ranges with null, though with most NPCs having this obsession with hugging my face they're pretty much fighting in void range.

Rail range is pretty much nullified by the fact you can MJD into blaster range of far off ships without breaking a sweat, considering you can be locking them up as you spool or even before you engage MJD mode, soon as you land, deploy bastion and engage.


With the extra mobility and boosted gun range, while the old school "tank and spank" Kronos is still a viable option, you can get far more DPS, and increased killspeed in taking a mobile blaster option. The reason most people are complaining about that is because they don't want to actively fly, which is odd, because it actually makes missions slightly less dull.

I'd rather have a 4th stacking penalized damage mod then 4th stacking penalized tracking mod. with 2 tcs and bastion that TE is the 4th mod.


and 30-70km is the kill range I'm mostly worried about, which is why I love using tachyons on my paladin and rails on my kronos. and is a set of ranges where I don't see a mjd having much help for blasters.

and I love actively flying, which is why the mach is one of my favorite ships. A slow ass blaster kronos well.... I'm not excited for that. (okay I think it will be pretty awesome at damsel, and maybe a few others, although I'm thinking a conflag paladin will be better at most of that)


Ah, this is where fits differ, I only have one TC and one TE, MWD/MJD and cap booster in the mids, triple magstab/LAR/DC/EANM for the lows.

Because the SiSi mirror last time Rubicon was up was old as hell, I wasn't able to utilise T2 guns/ammo and had to stick to faction guns/fed nav AM. The range you get with null gives you the range in the 30-50km range, the MJD lets you close off those 70km+ ships to 30 and under (especially when you start to jump to the side of them, sacrificing range for width and coming in at a much closer angle, and allowing for void)

Rails certainly are the easier option, but the lower damage, poor tracking and slower rate of fire gives them a lower skill cap and ultimately less peak efficiency than a well flown Blaster Kronos.

A lot of missions have rats that like to come in close and hump your face off, rails simply don't perform there in comparison.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6629 - 2013-10-24 01:02:27 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
The fourth mag stab on a Kronos is seriously little increase in DPS, 50-60 at best. I swapped that out for an RF TE.

Between max skills, Faction TE/TC (scripted) I'm hitting out to decent ranges with null, though with most NPCs having this obsession with hugging my face they're pretty much fighting in void range.

Rail range is pretty much nullified by the fact you can MJD into blaster range of far off ships without breaking a sweat, considering you can be locking them up as you spool or even before you engage MJD mode, soon as you land, deploy bastion and engage.


With the extra mobility and boosted gun range, while the old school "tank and spank" Kronos is still a viable option, you can get far more DPS, and increased killspeed in taking a mobile blaster option. The reason most people are complaining about that is because they don't want to actively fly, which is odd, because it actually makes missions slightly less dull.

I'd rather have a 4th stacking penalized damage mod then 4th stacking penalized tracking mod. with 2 tcs and bastion that TE is the 4th mod.


and 30-70km is the kill range I'm mostly worried about, which is why I love using tachyons on my paladin and rails on my kronos. and is a set of ranges where I don't see a mjd having much help for blasters.

and I love actively flying, which is why the mach is one of my favorite ships. A slow ass blaster kronos well.... I'm not excited for that. (okay I think it will be pretty awesome at damsel, and maybe a few others, although I'm thinking a conflag paladin will be better at most of that)


Ah, this is where fits differ, I only have one TC and one TE, MWD/MJD and cap booster in the mids, triple magstab/LAR/DC/EANM for the lows.

Because the SiSi mirror last time Rubicon was up was old as hell, I wasn't able to utilise T2 guns/ammo and had to stick to faction guns/fed nav AM. The range you get with null gives you the range in the 30-50km range, the MJD lets you close off those 70km+ ships to 30 and under (especially when you start to jump to the side of them, sacrificing range for width and coming in at a much closer angle, and allowing for void)

Rails certainly are the easier option, but the lower damage, poor tracking and slower rate of fire gives them a lower skill cap and ultimately less peak efficiency than a well flown Blaster Kronos.

A lot of missions have rats that like to come in close and hump your face off, rails simply don't perform there in comparison.


The difference here though, is that with Rails you can engage targets up to max target range and kill many of them before they begin to orbit, thus f'ing you on tracking.

However, with the new MJD bonus, you can simply MJD away, and you'll have 100km to kill npcs as they travel to you with no traversal.

Again, Golem performs best as orbitting targets don't effect damage output all that much.
However, with the massive tanks of Marauders and MJD.
You can tank the targets that spawn too close to track for guns, while you blast distant targets.
Once they're all mopped up, you can then MJD and clear the targets that were originally on top of you.

There's two ways to go about that.
Land, MJD out, kill, MJD to warp gate, kill, activate gate.
or
Land, kill, MJD out, kill, MJD in, activate gate.

With the Bastion, you can tank a full room.
With MJD bonus, tracking is only an issue till you MJD away.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#6630 - 2013-10-24 01:46:40 UTC
The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry.

It's certainly a complete difference as to how I'm flying on TQ, where I'm sitting back with rails + sentries and pinging off targets 60km away, but the kill speed is certainly faster, even in sites where I'm not bogged down by e-war.

When you get something like Serpentis Blockade though, it's just hilarious.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6631 - 2013-10-24 02:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Caellach Marellus wrote:
The alternative to MJD kiting though is MJDing straight into the thick of it, popping beast mode for the tank and clearing everything out with higher damage ammo on faster RoF weaponry.

Marauders: n00b and improved...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6632 - 2013-10-24 04:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Joe Risalo wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

After the changes they are worse in terms of isk/hr in several areas of pve:

* mobility (esp vargur, favor b/c of ac falloff)
* dmg nerf was to drone dps / bandwidth
* you could also interpret dps nerf by these ships favoring long range weps
* loss of looting exclusiveness

Marauders have the lowest max raw dmg potential of all comparable bs sized combat ships including t1.


1) With MJD bonus, and the fact that Bastion frees up mids for vargur and Golem, I would say that they've actually gotten a mobility buff.
Formerly, I had 2 x TP, XL-shield booster, cap booster, 3x resists = 7 occupied mids
With bastion i was able to drop a resist mod and fit MJD
This coupled with the MJD bonus means I am now MORE mobile.
MJD out, bastion, MJD in.
No cap loss, no sig increase, no tracking loss(no speaking specifically of Golem on this one), webs and warp disruptors don't matter.

2) Most players have never used more than small drones.... Many other players have never used anything but salvage drones since they were introduced.
Consider this, these marauders insta-pop frigs, 1-3 volley cruisers, and 3-6 volley BS's(also skill dependant).
The most you're probably doing with even sentry drones is reducing this by one volley, and in many cases, not even that.

3) Watch the Eve Vegas 2013.. There is a player on there who runs anoms... He stated specifically that range was better than overall dps...
The reason is actually pretty simple...
The less time you spending travelling, or waiting for targets to travel to you, the faster you complete.
Also, the longer the range, the less tracking issues = higher applied damage.

4) HUH? they haven't had looting exclusiveness for a long time(since the noctis).
Also, I might add that many players that use marauders do not loot, they only salvage.
However, this is not the fault of the Marauders themselves, but rather their lack-luster tractor range, which has always been a problem, just never that noticable until the noctis.
Hell, before the noctis, I used to come in with an Orca loaded with tractors, then I would have a salvage destroyer in the hanger... Jet destroyer, swap ships, salvage away, swap ships, load up destroyer..
Even that was faster than using the Golem to salvage in many cases.


My Golem out dps's any missile boat excluding the Raven navy, and now it does so without tanking, ewar, range, or mobility issues(thanks to MJD)


1 false, mobility is reduced, esp during close range combat and bastion mode. Yeah yeah, frees a slot. What should the vargur use in the additional mid? If TC tracking is already fantastic, falloff and bastion falloff start to conflict at that point. Dual prop is pointless for most missions. More or less, use bastion w/o falloff bonus and mobility or don't use it and don't get the extra slot. This is one of the reasons I think drones would be a nice addition.

2 irrelevant concerning small drones. Also, Vargur can usually down a frig with less than a full AC volley. If taking the penalties CCP wants to give it, it needs a bit of a dmg buff. Mach gets x2 drone bandwidth, about 9.5% more turret dps, and better mobility. Maelstrom gets the same turret raw dps, but has twice the bandwidth.

3 marauders are useful against high ewar and high dmg that doesn't require logi. Also, mjd and long range focus make the tracking bonuses less useful.

4 noctis isn't a combat ship. As with point 2 the point about salvaging is irrelevant. Concerning tractors, the Vargur currently can make very good use of the tractor bonus because it usually kills things within tractor 48km tractor range. One more reason to hate the ranged role and low mobility. Honestly if you arent looting in a marauder, another ship will make you more isk/hr in 4s

Both the Raven and RNI have higher dmg potential, golem takes double penalties for defenders compared to RNI, and can be subjected to higher amounts of overkill
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6633 - 2013-10-24 05:10:07 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

After the changes they are worse in terms of isk/hr in several areas of pve:

* mobility (esp vargur, favor b/c of ac falloff)
* dmg nerf was to drone dps / bandwidth
* you could also interpret dps nerf by these ships favoring long range weps
* loss of looting exclusiveness

Marauders have the lowest max raw dmg potential of all comparable bs sized combat ships including t1.


1) With MJD bonus, and the fact that Bastion frees up mids for vargur and Golem, I would say that they've actually gotten a mobility buff.
Formerly, I had 2 x TP, XL-shield booster, cap booster, 3x resists = 7 occupied mids
With bastion i was able to drop a resist mod and fit MJD
This coupled with the MJD bonus means I am now MORE mobile.
MJD out, bastion, MJD in.
No cap loss, no sig increase, no tracking loss(no speaking specifically of Golem on this one), webs and warp disruptors don't matter.

2) Most players have never used more than small drones.... Many other players have never used anything but salvage drones since they were introduced.
Consider this, these marauders insta-pop frigs, 1-3 volley cruisers, and 3-6 volley BS's(also skill dependant).
The most you're probably doing with even sentry drones is reducing this by one volley, and in many cases, not even that.

3) Watch the Eve Vegas 2013.. There is a player on there who runs anoms... He stated specifically that range was better than overall dps...
The reason is actually pretty simple...
The less time you spending travelling, or waiting for targets to travel to you, the faster you complete.
Also, the longer the range, the less tracking issues = higher applied damage.

4) HUH? they haven't had looting exclusiveness for a long time(since the noctis).
Also, I might add that many players that use marauders do not loot, they only salvage.
However, this is not the fault of the Marauders themselves, but rather their lack-luster tractor range, which has always been a problem, just never that noticable until the noctis.
Hell, before the noctis, I used to come in with an Orca loaded with tractors, then I would have a salvage destroyer in the hanger... Jet destroyer, swap ships, salvage away, swap ships, load up destroyer..
Even that was faster than using the Golem to salvage in many cases.


My Golem out dps's any missile boat excluding the Raven navy, and now it does so without tanking, ewar, range, or mobility issues(thanks to MJD)


1 false, mobility is reduced, esp during close range combat and bastion mode. Yeah yeah, frees a slot. What should the vargur use in the additional mid? If TC tracking is already fantastic, falloff and bastion falloff start to conflict at that point. Dual prop is pointless for most missions. More or less, use bastion w/o falloff bonus and mobility or don't use it and don't get the extra slot. This is one of the reasons I think drones would be a nice addition.

2 irrelevant concerning small drones. Also, Vargur can usually down a frig with less than a full AC volley. If taking the penalties CCP wants to give it, it needs a bit of a dmg buff. Mach gets x2 drone bandwidth, about 9.5% more turret dps, and better mobility. Maelstrom gets the same turret raw dps, but has twice the bandwidth.

3 marauders are useful against high ewar and high dmg that doesn't require logi. Also, mjd and long range focus make the tracking bonuses less useful.

4 noctis isn't a combat ship. As with point 2 the point about salvaging is irrelevant. Concerning tractors, the Vargur currently can make very good use of the tractor bonus because it usually kills things within tractor 48km tractor range. One more reason to hate the ranged role and low mobility. Honestly if you arent looting in a marauder, another ship will make you more isk/hr in 4s

Both the Raven and RNI have higher dmg potential, golem takes double penalties for defenders compared to RNI, and can be subjected to higher amounts of overkill



Uhh, I might just be tired, but it doesn't appear that you countered any of my arguments very well, if at all.....
I read it two or three times...
I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't see a good counter argument....
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6634 - 2013-10-24 05:11:47 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

After the changes they are worse in terms of isk/hr in several areas of pve:

* mobility (esp vargur, favor b/c of ac falloff)
* dmg nerf was to drone dps / bandwidth
* you could also interpret dps nerf by these ships favoring long range weps
* loss of looting exclusiveness

Marauders have the lowest max raw dmg potential of all comparable bs sized combat ships including t1.


1) With MJD bonus, and the fact that Bastion frees up mids for vargur and Golem, I would say that they've actually gotten a mobility buff.
Formerly, I had 2 x TP, XL-shield booster, cap booster, 3x resists = 7 occupied mids
With bastion i was able to drop a resist mod and fit MJD
This coupled with the MJD bonus means I am now MORE mobile.
MJD out, bastion, MJD in.
No cap loss, no sig increase, no tracking loss(no speaking specifically of Golem on this one), webs and warp disruptors don't matter.

2) Most players have never used more than small drones.... Many other players have never used anything but salvage drones since they were introduced.
Consider this, these marauders insta-pop frigs, 1-3 volley cruisers, and 3-6 volley BS's(also skill dependant).
The most you're probably doing with even sentry drones is reducing this by one volley, and in many cases, not even that.

3) Watch the Eve Vegas 2013.. There is a player on there who runs anoms... He stated specifically that range was better than overall dps...
The reason is actually pretty simple...
The less time you spending travelling, or waiting for targets to travel to you, the faster you complete.
Also, the longer the range, the less tracking issues = higher applied damage.

4) HUH? they haven't had looting exclusiveness for a long time(since the noctis).
Also, I might add that many players that use marauders do not loot, they only salvage.
However, this is not the fault of the Marauders themselves, but rather their lack-luster tractor range, which has always been a problem, just never that noticable until the noctis.
Hell, before the noctis, I used to come in with an Orca loaded with tractors, then I would have a salvage destroyer in the hanger... Jet destroyer, swap ships, salvage away, swap ships, load up destroyer..
Even that was faster than using the Golem to salvage in many cases.


My Golem out dps's any missile boat excluding the Raven navy, and now it does so without tanking, ewar, range, or mobility issues(thanks to MJD)


1 false, mobility is reduced, esp during close range combat and bastion mode. Yeah yeah, frees a slot. What should the vargur use in the additional mid? If TC tracking is already fantastic, falloff and bastion falloff start to conflict at that point. Dual prop is pointless for most missions. More or less, use bastion w/o falloff bonus and mobility or don't use it and don't get the extra slot. This is one of the reasons I think drones would be a nice addition.

2 irrelevant concerning small drones. Also, Vargur can usually down a frig with less than a full AC volley. If taking the penalties CCP wants to give it, it needs a bit of a dmg buff. Mach gets x2 drone bandwidth, about 9.5% more turret dps, and better mobility. Maelstrom gets the same turret raw dps, but has twice the bandwidth.

3 marauders are useful against high ewar and high dmg that doesn't require logi. Also, mjd and long range focus make the tracking bonuses less useful.

4 noctis isn't a combat ship. As with point 2 the point about salvaging is irrelevant. Concerning tractors, the Vargur currently can make very good use of the tractor bonus because it usually kills things within tractor 48km tractor range. One more reason to hate the ranged role and low mobility. Honestly if you arent looting in a marauder, another ship will make you more isk/hr in 4s

Both the Raven and RNI have higher dmg potential, golem takes double penalties for defenders compared to RNI, and can be subjected to higher amounts of overkill


golem is a torpedo boat cant compare to a missile boat like ravens. Bastion works well for torpedo and does nothing for cruise missiles.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#6635 - 2013-10-24 05:42:40 UTC
bastio does help cruise golem by drasticaly lowering the defender missle damage drops and thats a big gain and there is that pretty handy speed gain that comes handy when sniping at 100km - less wasted ammo
so you cant say that cruise golem does not gain anything from bastion
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6636 - 2013-10-24 06:07:53 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:
bastio does help cruise golem by drasticaly lowering the defender missle damage drops and thats a big gain and there is that pretty handy speed gain that comes handy when sniping at 100km - less wasted ammo
so you cant say that cruise golem does not gain anything from bastion

How exactly does it lower defender missile damage?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#6637 - 2013-10-24 06:38:25 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Yeah, if it wasn't for the venomous spur they'd be great family pets. Lol

Only the males have that, the females are much nicer.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6638 - 2013-10-24 06:51:49 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:
bastio does help cruise golem by drasticaly lowering the defender missle damage drops and thats a big gain and there is that pretty handy speed gain that comes handy when sniping at 100km - less wasted ammo
so you cant say that cruise golem does not gain anything from bastion


it doesnt help with defenders , it might if you put 2 velocity riggs on it but then the bastion get stacked penalty to almost nothing at that point , so i think most people would not gonna try that route. The only think it helps cruise is less volley counting.

curise missile is just boring . no need to move, no need to change ammo type , just shoot and warp to next gate.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#6639 - 2013-10-24 06:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Vinyl 41 wrote:

golem is a torpedo boat cant compare to a missile boat like ravens. Bastion works well for torpedo and does nothing for cruise missiles.


You do realize, that the Golem is allowed to use Crusie missiles too, right?

EDIT: edited because of missquote.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#6640 - 2013-10-24 06:55:52 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Vinyl 41 wrote:
bastio does help cruise golem by drasticaly lowering the defender missle damage drops and thats a big gain and there is that pretty handy speed gain that comes handy when sniping at 100km - less wasted ammo
so you cant say that cruise golem does not gain anything from bastion


it doesnt help with defenders , it might if you put 2 velocity riggs on it but then the bastion get stacked penalty to almost nothing at that point , so i think most people would not gonna try that route. The only think it helps cruise is less volley counting.

curise missile is just boring . no need to move, no need to change ammo type , just shoot and warp to next gate.


Do NPC's still use defender missiles? I haven't seen that happen in quite some time... Straight

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.