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[Rubicon] Warp Speed and Acceleration

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BloodMia
The Scope
#441 - 2013-10-21 10:46:47 UTC
doublepost
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#442 - 2013-10-21 16:27:33 UTC
What about shuttles? how will they act in comparison to T1 frigs and intys/cov ops?

With intys gaining interduction nullification it seems like shuttles are worthless now. I would rather put the 20m for a inty with the rigs than the shuttle for 500k.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#443 - 2013-10-21 16:33:22 UTC
People still fly shuttles?
Kate stark
#444 - 2013-10-21 18:02:04 UTC
sabastyian wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
i don't really get why people are so upset about the new implants.

Because they just nerfed your average warp time by making it take twice as long.
Also your average interceptor warps a system in what... 11-15 seconds ( with these changes ) What would an interceptor with these implants do, 6-9 seconds? literally faster then most ships in eve just align.


so your issue has nothing to do with the implants, you just flat out don't like the fact that warpseed is now a useful stat.

got it.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Olaf4862
Dragoon Industries Limited
#445 - 2013-10-22 00:38:45 UTC
I have no idea if this was mentioned but... did anyone check out how the animation works for weapons tucking into there mounts while coming in and out of warp? I am sure with these changes the animations prob look wierd on some of the faster ships.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#446 - 2013-10-22 00:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Ive played around with it a bit, and I think at the faster end, ships just warp too fast. In even moderate to low lag, you can get ships just suddenly appearing on grid and able to attack before they even appear on overview.

Make the warp acceleration scale with the square root of the warp speed, instead of the warp speed. This slows down the upper end acceleration, but still makes them very very fast in warp.

Also, warp speed rigs/implants should be stacking penalized
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#447 - 2013-10-22 06:01:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
People still fly shuttles?

Sure.

For those times when you need to drop off a ship someplace and don't want to fly back in your pod. Shuttles can be repackaged and carried in the cargohold of a lot of ships - rigged intys... not so much.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#448 - 2013-10-22 16:03:21 UTC
Kossaw wrote:
Having faster warp speeds is great. But it seems that the new design goes too far. A dictor with speed implants can cover 14 AU in less than one server tick and arrive on grid, then bubble or cloak before even appearing on your D-Scan let alone appearing on your overview. Essentially we now have interdictors that can warp cloaked.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=287366&find=unread

Yes, getting into warp should be faster, and small ships should warp faster than large ships. The current mechanics are too slow, and right now arriving on grid to see a fat lazy and slow carrier warp is frustrating. But these changes swing the pendulum too far. Its basically going to be impossible for ANY ship to see an interceptor or dictor in warp and any gang, small or large is going to be bubbled before anybody even sees the dictor arrive.

If that is the intended effect then fine - this is Eve , Adapt or Die. But This is one hell of a change.



In order to land on grid with you the dictor needs to be decelerating which means it will be on dscan for about 7 seconds.
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#449 - 2013-10-22 17:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven
Dav Varan wrote:
[In order to land on grid with you the dictor needs to be decelerating which means it will be on dscan for about 7 seconds.

I hate to break it to you: nope, that is not correct. If you are lucky enough you have it on one d-scan for exactly one scan before it is on grid. But only if you keep constantly spamming the button whenever the server allows it (every 3 sec).

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#450 - 2013-10-23 01:02:01 UTC
Quote:
In order to land on grid with you the dictor needs to be decelerating which means it will be on dscan for about 7 seconds.


Someone missed the patch changes...that this entire thread was about.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#451 - 2013-10-23 08:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
[In order to land on grid with you the dictor needs to be decelerating which means it will be on dscan for about 7 seconds.

I hate to break it to you: nope, that is not correct. If you are lucky enough you have it on one d-scan for exactly one scan before it is on grid. But only if you keep constantly spamming the button whenever the server allows it (every 3 sec).


There's no time given in Fozzie's post for a 28.8 au warp the closest is 20au
if the new accel decel phases are symetrical then half the total warp time is going to be the time to cross a distance while decelerating to land.

Time to warp 20 au in a dict is 14 seconds so crossing 10au while decelerating is going to take 7 seconds.
Thats 7 seconds the dictor is scannable for.

scan range is 14.4 au not 10
also deceleration takes longer on tranq than acceleration ( not sure if that's still the case in the new order ).

Both of these factors will increase the time available for a dscan hit while warp implants and rigs will decrease it.
If I take numbers given in this post that a dict maxes at 12.5 au/s from a base of 8 your still looking at about 5 - 7 secs for a decel onto grid.

You can't just divide 14.4 au scan range by top warp speed.
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#452 - 2013-10-23 09:34:50 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
if the new accel decel curve is symetrical then half the total warp time is going to be the time to cross a distance while decelerating to land.


Maybe you should go test that before making assumptions. Check this video ...

http://themittani.com/media/rubicon-warp-speed-comparison-video.

Dictors are marginally slower than interceptors, but the video shows pretty clearly how both these ship classes will work.

Total warp distance is 16 AU. ( so a bit short to start with for best demonstration). The Rubicon interceptor enters the warp tunnel at about 3 seconds, the distance to go starts to decrease at 4 seconds, hits 10 AU to go at 5 seconds, reaches 1 AU to go at 6 seconds and the interceptor arrives on the gate at 10 seconds. At 14 seconds the interceptor has selected the target, locked it and scrambled it.

That video is taken from the point of view of the interceptor. The pilot has no speed rigs or implants. Total time from being in scan range to arriving on grid is perhaps 4 seconds. Rigs and implants will reduce this further. The server updates your client at best once per second ( and if you live outside London I can assure you its never that quick ) and you have a minimum 3 seconds between D-Scans.

A dictor doesnt need to select, target and lock your gang. Its been verified on SiSi that dictors can land and bubble before your client is updated and the overview shows them on your grid.

WTB : An image in my signature
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#453 - 2013-10-23 10:20:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Kossaw wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
if the new accel decel curve is symetrical then half the total warp time is going to be the time to cross a distance while decelerating to land.


Maybe you should go test that before making assumptions. Check this video ...

http://themittani.com/media/rubicon-warp-speed-comparison-video.

Dictors are marginally slower than interceptors, but the video shows pretty clearly how both these ship classes will work.

Total warp distance is 16 AU. ( so a bit short to start with for best demonstration). The Rubicon interceptor enters the warp tunnel at about 3 seconds, the distance to go starts to decrease at 4 seconds, hits 10 AU to go at 5 seconds, reaches 1 AU to go at 6 seconds and the interceptor arrives on the gate at 10 seconds. At 14 seconds the interceptor has selected the target, locked it and scrambled it.

That video is taken from the point of view of the interceptor. The pilot has no speed rigs or implants. Total time from being in scan range to arriving on grid is perhaps 4 seconds. Rigs and implants will reduce this further. The server updates your client at best once per second ( and if you live outside London I can assure you its never that quick ) and you have a minimum 3 seconds between D-Scans.

A dictor doesnt need to select, target and lock your gang. Its been verified on SiSi that dictors can land and bubble before your client is updated and the overview shows them on your grid.



your quoting 10au at 5 secs and landing at 10 secs!

Thats 5 secs and 5 server ticks your in scan range from not 4 and thats a ceptor.

Both are a massive difference from the "covering 14au in a single tick in a dictor" you posted originally.

We know dictors are going to be super effective with rubicon, but warping to grid effectivelly cloaked is not the case.

I think most dictor pilots are not likelly to go past t1 rigs.

T2 rigs and xx billion isk implant sets on a ship that is going to be primary and bubbles it pilots pod if it goes bad ?
If a dictor pilot has balls that big he deserve the glory of your fleets death imho.



Ships landing on grid before overview update is a separate issue not related to ghosting through dscan range.
Yes that is an issue which will probably need some work, much larger grids or altered warp accel/decel.

The dscan issue you posted is a non issue. A dictor pilot can not land on your fleet unless there on a warp point of some discription or he has a cloaky or proby wingman of some description.
Anyway there was gameplay before the dictor drop.
5 secs is plenty of warning if you are awake.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#454 - 2013-10-23 13:32:18 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Kossaw wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
if the new accel decel curve is symetrical then half the total warp time is going to be the time to cross a distance while decelerating to land.


Maybe you should go test that before making assumptions. Check this video ...

http://themittani.com/media/rubicon-warp-speed-comparison-video.

Dictors are marginally slower than interceptors, but the video shows pretty clearly how both these ship classes will work.

Total warp distance is 16 AU. ( so a bit short to start with for best demonstration). The Rubicon interceptor enters the warp tunnel at about 3 seconds, the distance to go starts to decrease at 4 seconds, hits 10 AU to go at 5 seconds, reaches 1 AU to go at 6 seconds and the interceptor arrives on the gate at 10 seconds. At 14 seconds the interceptor has selected the target, locked it and scrambled it.

That video is taken from the point of view of the interceptor. The pilot has no speed rigs or implants. Total time from being in scan range to arriving on grid is perhaps 4 seconds. Rigs and implants will reduce this further. The server updates your client at best once per second ( and if you live outside London I can assure you its never that quick ) and you have a minimum 3 seconds between D-Scans.

A dictor doesnt need to select, target and lock your gang. Its been verified on SiSi that dictors can land and bubble before your client is updated and the overview shows them on your grid.



your quoting 10au at 5 secs and landing at 10 secs!

Thats 5 secs and 5 server ticks your in scan range from not 4 and thats a ceptor.

Both are a massive difference from the "covering 14au in a single tick in a dictor" you posted originally.

We know dictors are going to be super effective with rubicon, but warping to grid effectivelly cloaked is not the case.

I think most dictor pilots are not likelly to go past t1 rigs.

T2 rigs and xx billion isk implant sets on a ship that is going to be primary and bubbles it pilots pod if it goes bad ?
If a dictor pilot has balls that big he deserve the glory of your fleets death imho.



Ships landing on grid before overview update is a separate issue not related to ghosting through dscan range.
Yes that is an issue which will probably need some work, much larger grids or altered warp accel/decel.

The dscan issue you posted is a non issue. A dictor pilot can not land on your fleet unless there on a warp point of some discription or he has a cloaky or proby wingman of some description.
Anyway there was gameplay before the dictor drop.
5 secs is plenty of warning if you are awake.

you are wrong, check the videos made, and test it yourself, even with a very high end connection, you can be ongrid with someone and bubble him before he even see you on his overview....i tested it myself, i saw it, like many other here.

it is also possible with an inty, my point landed the second i appeared on the overview, meaning i was already there long enought to lock him (wich is crazy fast, around a sec with a stiletto vs a BS)

plus, regarding dscan, you cannot refresh faster than once every 3 secondes so.....get your fact straight
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#455 - 2013-10-23 14:32:34 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


Ships landing on grid before overview update is a separate issue not related to ghosting through dscan range.
Yes that is an issue which will probably need some work, much larger grids or altered warp accel/decel.

The dscan issue you posted is a non issue. A dictor pilot can not land on your fleet unless there on a warp point of some discription or he has a cloaky or proby wingman of some description.
Anyway there was gameplay before the dictor drop.
5 secs is plenty of warning if you are awake.

you are wrong, check the videos made, and test it yourself, even with a very high end connection, you can be ongrid with someone and bubble him before he even see you on his overview....i tested it myself, i saw it, like many other here.

it is also possible with an inty, my point landed the second i appeared on the overview, meaning i was already there long enought to lock him (wich is crazy fast, around a sec with a stiletto vs a BS)

plus, regarding dscan, you cannot refresh faster than once every 3 secondes so.....get your fact straight


You seem to be confused. why are you arguing about points everyone allready agrees on ?

Everyone already agrees on grid appearance is a problem this includes me
Everyone already agrees it takes 3 secs to Dscan this includes me.

The assertation that a ship can get though dscan range without being picked up on dscan is completelly wrong if that ship is decelerating to land on your grid
min warp time for a dictor through dscan range is going to be ~5 seconds fully maxed and will more commonly be 7 secs with disposable setups.

Thats 1 or 2 guaranteed hits on dscan and an absolute minimum of 2 seconds to press warp.
Of course if your not aligned welcome to non consensual PvP Twisted
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#456 - 2013-10-23 14:58:16 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Thats 1 or 2 guaranteed hits on dscan and an absolute minimum of 2 seconds to press warp.
Of course if your not aligned welcome to non consensual PvP Twisted


Even if you are, two seconds is not a terribly long time, and if you time it wrong, two seconds (and a tiny bit of overlap) can occur over three ticks. If you happen to be preoccupied with something else, welp.

Piloting anything larger than a frigate will become not entirely unlike mining in lowsec in a barge. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#457 - 2013-10-23 20:50:53 UTC
erm...

Did you really have to use this as an opportunity to nerf the Adrestia?

Don't buff them i dont care but stop nerfing the damn things.

Keep 6AU warp speed.
dexter xio
Dead Game.
#458 - 2013-10-23 21:58:41 UTC
This is ridiculously broken... both interceptors and interdictors are far to overpowered for this, add warp speed implants (lol?) and it's even more ridiculous. Any gang will be easily caught by a larger gang/blob with multiple interceptors and interdictors, let alone a single interdictor.

Dead Game.
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#459 - 2013-10-24 12:16:04 UTC
dexter xio wrote:
This is ridiculously broken... both interceptors and interdictors are far to overpowered for this, add warp speed implants (lol?) and it's even more ridiculous. Any gang will be easily caught by a larger gang/blob with multiple interceptors and interdictors, let alone a single interdictor.


That's the entire point of those ships
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#460 - 2013-10-24 12:17:47 UTC
So has anyone said anything about the fact that probes, fighters, and fighterbombers still don't have warp values listed?