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[Rubicon] Warp Speed and Acceleration

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#461 - 2013-10-24 14:03:02 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


Ships landing on grid before overview update is a separate issue not related to ghosting through dscan range.
Yes that is an issue which will probably need some work, much larger grids or altered warp accel/decel.

The dscan issue you posted is a non issue. A dictor pilot can not land on your fleet unless there on a warp point of some discription or he has a cloaky or proby wingman of some description.
Anyway there was gameplay before the dictor drop.
5 secs is plenty of warning if you are awake.

you are wrong, check the videos made, and test it yourself, even with a very high end connection, you can be ongrid with someone and bubble him before he even see you on his overview....i tested it myself, i saw it, like many other here.

it is also possible with an inty, my point landed the second i appeared on the overview, meaning i was already there long enought to lock him (wich is crazy fast, around a sec with a stiletto vs a BS)

plus, regarding dscan, you cannot refresh faster than once every 3 secondes so.....get your fact straight


You seem to be confused. why are you arguing about points everyone allready agrees on ?

Everyone already agrees on grid appearance is a problem this includes me
Everyone already agrees it takes 3 secs to Dscan this includes me.

The assertation that a ship can get though dscan range without being picked up on dscan is completelly wrong if that ship is decelerating to land on your grid
min warp time for a dictor through dscan range is going to be ~5 seconds fully maxed and will more commonly be 7 secs with disposable setups.

Thats 1 or 2 guaranteed hits on dscan and an absolute minimum of 2 seconds to press warp.
Of course if your not aligned welcome to non consensual PvP Twisted




That is a great oppportunity. MAybe this will rise a problem that will make CCP move into fixing the intel tools in game. Somethign to replace local and the D_SCan as intel tools.


We can only hope .. sometimes the bad comes for the better

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#462 - 2013-10-24 17:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Kagura Nikon wrote:
That is a great oppportunity. MAybe this will rise a problem that will make CCP move into fixing the intel tools in game. Somethign to replace local and the D_SCan as intel tools.


We can only hope .. sometimes the bad comes for the better

I'd add API outsourcing to that list as well. I'm pretty sure that if intel that is limited to your current system (local) is a problem, then intel that has no such limitation should as well be. As of right now, you don't even have to travel somewhere to detect people running PvE there, and sometimes you can even pick up gatecamps and such, given right circumstances.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#463 - 2013-10-25 10:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Given the concerns over detection times on dscan and the instant appearance on grid from nowhere I propose the following solution.

Link warp acceleration to max warp speed as planned
Have static warp deceleration as per current build.

Will fix appearance on grid and keep detection time more or less the same.


Slow ships will tend to have long acceleration times over a large distance followed by tranq deceleration for a short time/distance.
Fast ships will tend to have short acceleration times over a short distance followed by tranq deceleration for a moderate time/distance.


Overall fast ships will still be a lot faster than slow ships point to point although not as much as current proposal.
Grid appearance is fixed without having to jig with grid sizes or mechanics.
Abigail Sagan
Skeleton Liberation Front
#464 - 2013-10-25 11:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Abigail Sagan
One option as one of those warning systems:
When a ship activates warp drive, target grid receives a "Warp Disturbance" or "Incoming Ship" message, which all ships receive somehow; maybe via overview, maybe as big red alarm letters with audible klaxon sound, or maybe as unpleasant smell from under pilot's chair or something like that. That would reduce heart attacks by pilots by about 13.2 percents. I leave it to the PvP experts to determine, if that is by too many percents.

As a side note, I would love to have that warp speed/acceleration increase. Hopefully it makes it to the next expansion and with as few negative side effects as possible.

Edit: As an afterthought; that is probably too OP. *sighs and dons the anti-flame outfit*
Little less OP option, but probably still OP: The message would be sent once the ship starts to decelerate in warp, instead of when it goes to warp.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#465 - 2013-10-25 12:53:43 UTC
Abigail Sagan wrote:
One option as one of those warning systems:
When a ship activates warp drive, target grid receives a "Warp Disturbance" or "Incoming Ship" message, which all ships receive somehow; maybe via overview, maybe as big red alarm letters with audible klaxon sound, or maybe as unpleasant smell from under pilot's chair or something like that. That would reduce heart attacks by pilots by about 13.2 percents. I leave it to the PvP experts to determine, if that is by too many percents.

As a side note, I would love to have that warp speed/acceleration increase. Hopefully it makes it to the next expansion and with as few negative side effects as possible.

Edit: As an afterthought; that is probably too OP. *sighs and dons the anti-flame outfit*
Little less OP option, but probably still OP: The message would be sent once the ship starts to decelerate in warp, instead of when it goes to warp.



Back in the days a single player space game called Frontier had a nice feature

When a ship hyperspaced it would generate a hyperspace cloud at departure and arrival point, you could scan these clouds to follow and anticipate the arrival of ships.

A similar mechanism could be employed in eve with warp tunnels from departure to destination being visible to everyone on either grid.

Ship warps to your grid you see a translucent tunnel streching off into the distance.
much better solution than spamming dscan imho.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#466 - 2013-10-25 17:57:49 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Abigail Sagan wrote:
One option as one of those warning systems:
When a ship activates warp drive, target grid receives a "Warp Disturbance" or "Incoming Ship" message, which all ships receive somehow; maybe via overview, maybe as big red alarm letters with audible klaxon sound, or maybe as unpleasant smell from under pilot's chair or something like that. That would reduce heart attacks by pilots by about 13.2 percents. I leave it to the PvP experts to determine, if that is by too many percents.

As a side note, I would love to have that warp speed/acceleration increase. Hopefully it makes it to the next expansion and with as few negative side effects as possible.

Edit: As an afterthought; that is probably too OP. *sighs and dons the anti-flame outfit*
Little less OP option, but probably still OP: The message would be sent once the ship starts to decelerate in warp, instead of when it goes to warp.



Back in the days a single player space game called Frontier had a nice feature

When a ship hyperspaced it would generate a hyperspace cloud at departure and arrival point, you could scan these clouds to follow and anticipate the arrival of ships.

A similar mechanism could be employed in eve with warp tunnels from departure to destination being visible to everyone on either grid.

Ship warps to your grid you see a translucent tunnel streching off into the distance.
much better solution than spamming dscan imho.



The main issue with both this and the previous poster's idea of a notification pop up, is that when you have upwards of several 100 people on grid, adding an additional particle effect creates more lag as it is another call the server has to make. Additionally when you have again upwards of 100 people landing on grid, are you going to spam everyone on grid with several 100 warp notifications?

Quite frankly this is not an issue at all, you have local chat so you can see when someone comes into system. If you are too dumb to warp off in your ship if you don't want PvP then that is your own fault. Neither of these things is an issue nor is the warping past d-scan range since you have local chat. So this is just more awful visual garbage to fill up the screen like that awful jump tunnel effect and the awful new warp gate effect which STILL needs an option to disable as it still gives many people including myself motion sickness.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#467 - 2013-10-25 18:22:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Allison A'vani wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Abigail Sagan wrote:
One option as one of those warning systems:
When a ship activates warp drive, target grid receives a "Warp Disturbance" or "Incoming Ship" message, which all ships receive somehow; maybe via overview, maybe as big red alarm letters with audible klaxon sound, or maybe as unpleasant smell from under pilot's chair or something like that. That would reduce heart attacks by pilots by about 13.2 percents. I leave it to the PvP experts to determine, if that is by too many percents.

As a side note, I would love to have that warp speed/acceleration increase. Hopefully it makes it to the next expansion and with as few negative side effects as possible.

Edit: As an afterthought; that is probably too OP. *sighs and dons the anti-flame outfit*
Little less OP option, but probably still OP: The message would be sent once the ship starts to decelerate in warp, instead of when it goes to warp.



Back in the days a single player space game called Frontier had a nice feature

When a ship hyperspaced it would generate a hyperspace cloud at departure and arrival point, you could scan these clouds to follow and anticipate the arrival of ships.

A similar mechanism could be employed in eve with warp tunnels from departure to destination being visible to everyone on either grid.

Ship warps to your grid you see a translucent tunnel streching off into the distance.
much better solution than spamming dscan imho.



The main issue with both this and the previous poster's idea of a notification pop up, is that when you have upwards of several 100 people on grid, adding an additional particle effect creates more lag as it is another call the server has to make. Additionally when you have again upwards of 100 people landing on grid, are you going to spam everyone on grid with several 100 warp notifications?

Quite frankly this is not an issue at all, you have local chat so you can see when someone comes into system. If you are too dumb to warp off in your ship if you don't want PvP then that is your own fault. Neither of these things is an issue nor is the warping past d-scan range since you have local chat. So this is just more awful visual garbage to fill up the screen like that awful jump tunnel effect and the awful new warp gate effect which STILL needs an option to disable as it still gives many people including myself motion sickness.



Quite frankly You could not be more wrong if you tried.

Its much cheaper computationally to get the server to alert 100 clients on a grid once when a ship instigates warp to that grid than it is to have those 100 client ask the server every 3 seconds to work out the distance of every ship in system to them and then send them back the results.

Old scanner spamming
100 square root calculation 100 times = 10,000 square root calcs every 3 secs
versus
100 notifications with a set of co-ordinates calculated once.

It would be a solution that is orders of magnitudes more easy on the server.
Optimo Sebiestor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#468 - 2013-10-25 18:31:21 UTC
Just now flew a interceptor on sisi, damn.. You will get caugth With Your pants Down in Rubicon lol..
Abigail Sagan
Skeleton Liberation Front
#469 - 2013-10-26 07:56:23 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


Back in the days a single player space game called Frontier had a nice feature

When a ship hyperspaced it would generate a hyperspace cloud at departure and arrival point, you could scan these clouds to follow and anticipate the arrival of ships.

A similar mechanism could be employed in eve with warp tunnels from departure to destination being visible to everyone on either grid.

Ship warps to your grid you see a translucent tunnel streching off into the distance.
much better solution than spamming dscan imho.



The main issue with both this and the previous poster's idea of a notification pop up, is that when you have upwards of several 100 people on grid, adding an additional particle effect creates more lag as it is another call the server has to make. Additionally when you have again upwards of 100 people landing on grid, are you going to spam everyone on grid with several 100 warp notifications?

Quite frankly this is not an issue at all, you have local chat so you can see when someone comes into system. If you are too dumb to warp off in your ship if you don't want PvP then that is your own fault. Neither of these things is an issue nor is the warping past d-scan range since you have local chat. So this is just more awful visual garbage to fill up the screen like that awful jump tunnel effect and the awful new warp gate effect which STILL needs an option to disable as it still gives many people including myself motion sickness.


I have played with the idea I had a little more. The process could maybe work like this:

Client initiates Warp and server gets the info. Server sends the info to the server that handles the grid (usually the same server, I think). That server counts how many ships are enroute to the target grid and informs the clients of that grid the number of approaching warp signatures (just one message packet, instead of d-scan packet from 'all' pilots in system). The client uses logarhitmic scale (like Richter scale) to show the strength of the warp signature.

For example:
1 to 3 ships incoming: Violet light lits up somewhere on client.
4 to 10 ships: Indigo light
11 to 50 ships: Blue light
51 to 200 ships: Green light
...
1000 to 2500 ships: Orange light
2500+ ships: Red light and Scary Klaxon Sound!

The numbers are just to give an idea. They should be scaled to something useful. Calculating cloaked and friendly ships might be handled differently - or not.
Mr Fizz
Industrial Waste Removal Services
#470 - 2013-10-26 08:08:16 UTC
Frigates are for many, the first fast, agile, deliverer of thrills. So often we move on, cruisers, miners, hauliers, ships becoming more and more powerful, more and more capable, and for some reason or another, somewhat slower.

Frigates should be the fastest ships, they should be the most agile and I think no one will fault they carry the lightest armour and not the brightest weapons. The trick with the frigate, was to emerge from nowhere, at speed, arrive at the target, deliver your payload and harass. While the victim attempts to 'swat' you like an annoying bug, the bigger ships should arrive, destroy your ability to manoeuvre and then target your magazine to destroy you from the inside.

Apart from brave or foolhardy solo pirates, the frigate is useless as a solo-boat. So why not let it, in this game, travel at lightning speed, be exceptionally agile and deliver a somewhat interesting payload. It should be the pilots skill on selecting weaponry and how to use it that makes a frigate a nuisance, not the mechanics of speed and agility.

And why should all ships, in this lovely game, not be able to travel at the same speed, be able to accelerate at the same rate and be able to 'arrive' on a time and in an instant, after all, 'mass' as a subject was not invited to the party, 'force' has been abolished and the need for any adherence to the 'Principia Mathematica' has been long since over-ruled in an effort to maintain game play.

So for me, if a player complains about CCP's changes to the ships, tells me that the player simply cannot play their hand the way the game intends. As players, we have no right to assume the ship we played a year ago still should play the same, the implant we worked for months for should be changed with no notice and some ships should cease to exist whether or not we chose to invest time and money in training skills that subsequently turn out to be a total waste of time. It is not our game, all we do is pay subscription, and we alone, have the chance to pull that subscription should we find the game is not going in our own favour.

Enjoy your moaning, whining, and sabre rattling for CCP will do whatever they feel is best for their own income and that of the shareholders and partners.
Clacker McDucky
#471 - 2013-10-26 17:13:06 UTC
Mr Fizz wrote:
Blah...


While I agree that change is necessary for any game to survive over the long term and there will always be some naysayers that have to be ignored, I think even CCP now disagrees with your idea that player feedback is useless or somehow not important. There was a lot of blowback on Incarna, and CCP reversed its course based upon user (customer) opposition. In fact, the implementation of these forums is a direct counterpoint to your argument.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#472 - 2013-10-26 19:29:38 UTC
Clacker McDucky wrote:
While I agree that change is necessary for any game to survive over the long term and there will always be some naysayers that have to be ignored, I think even CCP now disagrees with your idea that player feedback is useless or somehow not important. There was a lot of blowback on Incarna, and CCP reversed its course based upon user (customer) opposition. In fact, the implementation of these forums is a direct counterpoint to your argument.

Allow people to openly b**ch about stuff they don't like, and they will resort to violence (literal or figurative) less, with all other factors equal.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#473 - 2013-10-26 20:11:02 UTC
Clacker McDucky wrote:
Mr Fizz wrote:
Blah...


While I agree that change is necessary for any game to survive over the long term and there will always be some naysayers that have to be ignored, I think even CCP now disagrees with your idea that player feedback is useless or somehow not important. There was a lot of blowback on Incarna, and CCP reversed its course based upon user (customer) opposition. In fact, the implementation of these forums is a direct counterpoint to your argument.


Your avatar is the best lol

The Tears Must Flow

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#474 - 2013-10-27 11:18:56 UTC
You guys are too freaked and scared by incomming ships.



That is their role.. to catch you!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#475 - 2013-10-28 09:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're aware of this behaviour and of your objections.

I disagree with your assessment that this is a major problem, but you are of course welcome to your opinion. We'll be keeping a close eye on this both before launch and after.

I suggest having subcaps that can kill dictors with you.



^^
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=287366&p=5
stoicfaux
#476 - 2013-10-28 18:08:51 UTC
I would just like to say: Holy bleep! Shuttles are fast!

Now can we just speed up the jumpgate animation? =D


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Kiithnaras
Black Ice Protectorate
#477 - 2013-10-29 16:23:43 UTC
Suggestion: Alter the Fast Attack HAC's (e.g. Vagabond, Deimos) warp acceleration to be slightly better than that of its cruiser counterparts - perhaps not as quick as destroyers, but quicker than any other cruiser-mass.

Additionally, do the same to Black Ops battleships - bring their warp acceleration to around the level of Command Ships.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#478 - 2013-10-29 16:37:18 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


Ships landing on grid before overview update is a separate issue not related to ghosting through dscan range.
Yes that is an issue which will probably need some work, much larger grids or altered warp accel/decel.

The dscan issue you posted is a non issue. A dictor pilot can not land on your fleet unless there on a warp point of some discription or he has a cloaky or proby wingman of some description.
Anyway there was gameplay before the dictor drop.
5 secs is plenty of warning if you are awake.

you are wrong, check the videos made, and test it yourself, even with a very high end connection, you can be ongrid with someone and bubble him before he even see you on his overview....i tested it myself, i saw it, like many other here.

it is also possible with an inty, my point landed the second i appeared on the overview, meaning i was already there long enought to lock him (wich is crazy fast, around a sec with a stiletto vs a BS)

plus, regarding dscan, you cannot refresh faster than once every 3 secondes so.....get your fact straight


You seem to be confused. why are you arguing about points everyone allready agrees on ?

Everyone already agrees on grid appearance is a problem this includes me
Everyone already agrees it takes 3 secs to Dscan this includes me.

The assertation that a ship can get though dscan range without being picked up on dscan is completelly wrong if that ship is decelerating to land on your grid
min warp time for a dictor through dscan range is going to be ~5 seconds fully maxed and will more commonly be 7 secs with disposable setups.

Thats 1 or 2 guaranteed hits on dscan and an absolute minimum of 2 seconds to press warp.
Of course if your not aligned welcome to non consensual PvP Twisted



and read my post back again, with a 3sec dscan delay, it is possible for an inty to ghost throught dscan (and some others ships provided they have rigs + implants (i suggest you read the post about the new warp speed implants that will give, with full set, 53-53% warp speed mprovement. now take a look again at the big picture and do the math :surprise:
Kane Fenris
NWP
#479 - 2013-10-29 16:40:45 UTC
Kiithnaras wrote:
Suggestion: Alter the Fast Attack HAC's (e.g. Vagabond, Deimos) warp acceleration to be slightly better than that of its cruiser counterparts - perhaps not as quick as destroyers, but quicker than any other cruiser-mass.

Additionally, do the same to Black Ops battleships - bring their warp acceleration to around the level of Command Ships.


like this.... i had a similar proposal:

Tempest Warpspeed Proposal
Praesus Lecti
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
Goonswarm Federation
#480 - 2013-10-29 18:45:58 UTC
An interesting point was brought up on the neighboring forum:

Adam Zalonis wrote:
Ships with faster warp speeds than 3.0 AU/s exit emergency warp before my client fully loads,. This leaves the ship motionless and vulnerable before I can get my bearings and act to save the ship if there are hostile NPCs around.