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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
#6501 - 2013-10-22 03:03:39 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
According to pages earlier in this thead, the secret to using salvage drones on-the-go is to apparently kill all the frigs first. Cruisers and up don't care about them.

Or was it that other thread about marauders and drones..


Salvage drones don't attract any aggro unless they proximity aggro, meaning there are ships you haven't shot at yet that they fly close to in order to salvage wrecks. They very very rarely get switched to unless there's a new wave spawning right on top of them.

Seriously, if you don't use salvage drones already in a marauder you're doing it wrong. It's way faster than mounting 1 puny salvager on your ship. Just mount 3 tractors and pull in cans.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#6502 - 2013-10-22 03:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Joe Risalo wrote:
Basically, they're more or less the ultimate solo combat hull..

I guess (seems a bit underwhelming for 6+ months of intensive skill training).

Dorororo wrote:
Seriously, if you don't use salvage drones already in a marauder you're doing it wrong. It's way faster than mounting 1 puny salvager on your ship. Just mount 3 tractors and pull in cans.

I just switch-out to a Noctis after and blitz-salvage the wrecks. I'm curious if the new 'tractor' units need to be present to gather wrecks and containers, of if it will continue to work if you proceed to the next room in a mission.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6503 - 2013-10-22 03:21:54 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Basically, they're more or less the ultimate solo combat hull..

I guess (seems a bit underwhelming for 6+ months of intensive skill training).

Dorororo wrote:
Seriously, if you don't use salvage drones already in a marauder you're doing it wrong. It's way faster than mounting 1 puny salvager on your ship. Just mount 3 tractors and pull in cans.

I just switch-out to a Noctis after and blitz-salvage the wrecks. I'm curious if the new 'tractor' units need to be present to gather wrecks and containers, of if it will continue to work if you proceed to the next room in a mission.



I would say you can drop them... The question I have is how many, and how far apart?
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#6504 - 2013-10-22 03:34:19 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I would say you can drop them... The question I have is how many, and how far apart?

@50m3 per tractor unit, I imagine a few anyway (especially on a Marauder or Noctis). I agree, range, tractor speed and degree of autonomy are all unanswered questions at this point. Suffice it to say, they may or may not negate the tractor bonus on the Marauders to some extent depending on just how they'll operate.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6505 - 2013-10-22 04:58:04 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I would say you can drop them... The question I have is how many, and how far apart?

@50m3 per tractor unit, I imagine a few anyway (especially on a Marauder or Noctis). I agree, range, tractor speed and degree of autonomy are all unanswered questions at this point. Suffice it to say, they may or may not negate the tractor bonus on the Marauders to some extent depending on just how they'll operate.


Been watching the Eve Vegas stream(replay).
These structures do have to be 5km apart and 45 sec anchor.
They didn't say a limit on how many you can drop, but during the video he seemed to have dropped more than one structure, though of different types, and from questions about the syphon units, it appears there isn't a limit.
NPCs don't attack them.
Tractor structures only tractor one item at a time, and they loot, but don't salvage.
They do have a faster than normal tractor velocity.
They did not give a range.
Yet, for some reason they don't seem to think they'll overpower tractor bonused ships.
Maybe not noctis, orca, or rorqual.... But even if their tractor range is the exact Same as golem, they'll overpower them.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#6506 - 2013-10-22 05:52:28 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Been watching the Eve Vegas stream(replay).
These structures do have to be 5km apart and 45 sec anchor.
They didn't say a limit on how many you can drop, but during the video he seemed to have dropped more than one structure, though of different types, and from questions about the syphon units, it appears there isn't a limit.
NPCs don't attack them.
Tractor structures only tractor one item at a time, and they loot, but don't salvage.
They do have a faster than normal tractor velocity.
They did not give a range.
Yet, for some reason they don't seem to think they'll overpower tractor bonused ships.
Maybe not noctis, orca, or rorqual.... But even if their tractor range is the exact Same as golem, they'll overpower them.

Appreciate the update, thanks. 5km apart and 45 seconds is nothing... And the whole NPC immunity is whacked, since salvage drones and a Noctis will both take a beating if you're not paying attention. And then let's make them more fantastic with a faster-than-average velocity.

We got the whole "power creep" when asking for more DPS through Bastion on the Marauders, and here CCP is introducing a series of structures that has the potential to completely unbalance things.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mr Chop-Chop
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#6507 - 2013-10-22 08:38:59 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Octoven wrote:
To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.

Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.

Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.


If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with.

Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before.

If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.


If you had listened to the player you wouldnt have nerfed them in the first place. What about nullsec? do you honestly think people can use bastion in null in a pve setting?
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#6508 - 2013-10-22 08:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:

If you had listened to the player you wouldnt have nerfed them in the first place. What about nullsec? do you honestly think people can use bastion in null in a pve setting?


Apparently, yes they do.

And on another note, Your marauder will stay largely unchanged and gets a lot of additional stuff. I really don't know what you are complaining about... Ugh

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Mr Chop-Chop
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#6509 - 2013-10-22 09:06:01 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:

If you had listened to the player you wouldnt have nerfed them in the first place. What about nullsec? do you honestly think people can use bastion in null in a pve setting?


Apparently, yes they do.

And on another note, Your marauder will stay largely unchanged and gets a lot of additional stuff. I really don't know what you are complaining about... Ugh


That is not true, at all. But please, make your case.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#6510 - 2013-10-22 09:09:35 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
And on another note, Your marauder will stay largely unchanged and gets a lot of additional stuff. I really don't know what you are complaining about... Ugh

Got web?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#6511 - 2013-10-22 09:15:35 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
And on another note, Your marauder will stay largely unchanged and gets a lot of additional stuff. I really don't know what you are complaining about... Ugh

Got web?


What for?

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#6512 - 2013-10-22 09:16:41 UTC
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:

If you had listened to the player you wouldnt have nerfed them in the first place. What about nullsec? do you honestly think people can use bastion in null in a pve setting?


Apparently, yes they do.

And on another note, Your marauder will stay largely unchanged and gets a lot of additional stuff. I really don't know what you are complaining about... Ugh


That is not true, at all. But please, make your case.

I did, Your marauder got buffed and you call it a nerf, what's your case again?

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#6513 - 2013-10-22 09:21:02 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
What for?

You obviously missed part of the discussion...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#6514 - 2013-10-22 09:25:03 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
What for?

You obviously missed part of the discussion...

Not really, I just dismissed all your flawed arguments as invalid and therefore chose to ignore them. Roll

Bastion mod frees up lots of mid slots, use additional tracking comps. small drones for frigs and if you really insist on it, use one web in case anything is actually fast enough to get under your guns.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Mr Chop-Chop
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#6515 - 2013-10-22 09:25:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Chop-Chop
Brawling style of pve(conflagration) no longer viable due to web bonus being removed. Less isk/h
Fewer slots for dps mods or tank because I now need to fit tracking mods. Less isk/h
Smaller drones = less isk/h
Bastion is suicide in null

Eagerly awaiting your retort so i may know how the paladin is now better for nullsec ratting.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#6516 - 2013-10-22 09:45:58 UTC
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:
Brawling style of pve(conflagration) no longer viable due to web bonus being removed. Less isk/h
Fewer slots for dps mods or tank because I now need to fit tracking mods. Less isk/h
Smaller drones = less isk/h
Bastion is suicide in null

Wow, you're using a short range brawler setup for pve and complain about lacking isk/h...

Here's a hint. don't brawl in PVE, your marauder always has been and always will be to slow for that. You'll be a lot faster if you use a setup that can hit just about everything from where you are.

smaller drones... don't tell me you were stupid enough to use salvage drones to "enhance" your PVE experience with your marauder.. Oh wait, You did use sentries on frigates instead of small drones?

I can't actually decide which is more inneffective... Straight

Next hint(s), salvaging with a marauder is never worth it. Never has been and never will be. Not ever. Instead, just kill everything, mark the location com back later with a noctis. You'll be faster and therefore earn more isk/h.

And for the frigs, kill them with your big guns as long as they're far away and switch to small T2 drones once they're close enough. Believe me, I tried both versions, sentries arre only worth it if you have 5 of them and use a dedicated drone boat.

Bastion in null. You might want to reconsider using your Marauder in null at all if your corp/alliance cannot provide enough intel to warn you in time to unbastion your 1bil gank target. Because if your nullbear pals can't do even that, You might want to use a drake. Or maybe you need a new alliance, who knows I won't care. Roll

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Mr Chop-Chop
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#6517 - 2013-10-22 09:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Chop-Chop
Debora Tsung wrote:
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:
Brawling style of pve(conflagration) no longer viable due to web bonus being removed. Less isk/h
Fewer slots for dps mods or tank because I now need to fit tracking mods. Less isk/h
Smaller drones = less isk/h
Bastion is suicide in null

Wow, you're using a short range brawler setup for pve and complain about lacking isk/h...

Here's a hint. don't brawl in PVE, your marauder always has been and always will be to slow for that. You'll be a lot faster if you use a setup that can hit just about everything from where you are.

smaller drones... don't tell me you were stupid enough to use salvage drones to "enhance" your PVE experience with your marauder.. Oh wait, You did use sentries on frigates instead of small drones?

I can't actually decide which is more inneffective... Straight

Next hint(s), salvaging with a marauder is never worth it. Never has been and never will be. Not ever. Instead, just kill everything, mark the location com back later with a noctis. You'll be faster and therefore earn more isk/h.

And for the frigs, kill them with your big guns as long as they're far away and switch to small T2 drones once they're close enough. Believe me, I tried both versions, sentries arre only worth it if you have 5 of them and use a dedicated drone boat.

Bastion in null. You might want to reconsider using your Marauder in null at all if your corp/alliance cannot provide enough intel to warn you in time to unbastion your 1bil gank target. Because if your nullbear pals can't do even that, You might want to use a drake. Or maybe you need a new alliance, who knows I won't care. Roll


Oh god the stupid, it hurts.

Hint! Brawling works fine, if you do the right sites the rats will spawn on top of you, and the few that get away you can easily approach with a 100m ab + overheated web. 1400 dps on something that doesnt move is good, mkay?

And what in gods name made you think that i use salv drones? does going from hammers to hobs not reduce my income?
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#6518 - 2013-10-22 10:04:27 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Since I still didn't get a answer on it yet, how likely it is to just keep the old marauders ingame and make them a 2. hull type that uses the marauder skills? I don't really care if you actually fix them or not.

- the old marauders are not game breaking or created any kind of issue in the game during her 6 years
- in many scenarios they perform better than the new ones
- in certain scenarios(like RR gang or Incs) bastion, active tanking and mjd provide nothing
- people get her new toy that they can sell again after 3 months when the shiny is gone and other people can still be happy with the marauders they use since years
- more choice to the player and choice is good in my opinion
- a opportunity to actually fix the old marauders in a way where they provide a very good alternative to pirate BS hulls(by improving the RR focus, adding utility and giving them unique features like posted a couple of times so far)



Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Rexxorr
Perkone
Caldari State
#6519 - 2013-10-22 10:11:00 UTC
Posting in support of improved tractor range for Marauders Big smile
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#6520 - 2013-10-22 10:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Mr Chop-Chop wrote:


Oh god the stupid, it hurts.

Hint! Brawling works fine, if you do the right sites the rats will spawn on top of you, and the few that get away you can easily approach with a 100m ab + overheated web. 1400 dps on something that doesnt move is good, mkay?

And what in gods name made you think that i use salv drones? does going from hammers to hobs not reduce my income?


PVE Brawling works fine in just that one single situation were you do not have to move. Wonderfull you found the perfect applicationn for the new bastion mod. Straight

Even more reason to be happy about the changes.

But oh wait, change... Change is bad, we can't have that. How would we know were we'd be in ten years if stuff constantly keeps changing. Stop the change! Roll

No, going from Hammers to Hobs does not reduce your income unless you didn't fit any guns of your own. The very notion that this could indeed be the truth is so stupid that I won't even consider it further. The reason for that is that Hobs hit frigates better than Hammerheads it's especially noticeable if You're up against elite frigs.

If You insist on using salvage drones, don't complain about them needing space in your drone bay. Really, it's that simple. Salvage drones are mind numbingly slow, just get a Noctis, it's worth it. I promise!

EDIT: + the new tractor structure. Shocked Once You've deployed that, just equip your noctis with 6 salvagers instead of just 4. that site will be clean in no time.

EDIT: Let my temper get the better of me. I try to be a better person. Straight

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.