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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

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Xcom
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2521 - 2013-10-21 06:47:08 UTC
I dono what to say anymore. If the majority of eve players rather want broken cloak mechanics then all I can add is, I will enjoy AFKing in your systems with with my 1000 DPS SOE ship after Rubicon.

See you all after the patch, don't be to coy mining or ratting. I have a itching trigger finger that needs feeding.
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2522 - 2013-10-21 10:51:57 UTC
I just figured you can tell if there's a cloaked pilot in the system even on WH space. You just add the person to your notification list and scout the exits. Assuming you saw that person entering the system you can tell if it is still there cloaked or not.
Notification list = free intel.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#2523 - 2013-10-21 13:22:52 UTC
Xcom wrote:
I dono what to say anymore. If the majority of eve players rather want broken cloak mechanics then all I can add is, I will enjoy AFKing in your systems with with my 1000 DPS SOE ship after Rubicon.

See you all after the patch, don't be to coy mining or ratting. I have a itching trigger finger that needs feeding.

Good luck with your hunting!

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#2524 - 2013-10-21 13:28:23 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
I just figured you can tell if there's a cloaked pilot in the system even on WH space. You just add the person to your notification list and scout the exits. Assuming you saw that person entering the system you can tell if it is still there cloaked or not.
Notification list = free intel.

And yet the pilots in wormhole space still won't care.

It's a really simple philosophy they run by.
There is either a hostile visible on grid, or not.

If not, keep in mind one could show up, and prepare accordingly. Then carry on.

If yes, have a response planned, and execute it. There is a finite variety of ships that can threaten, and they usually won't expose themselves unless they think they can win a fight with you.
Either they are right, or you are more prepared than they expect. Either way, you planned for this, and now that plan gets put into motion.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2525 - 2013-10-21 13:37:41 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

With impunity? Come on. All you have to do is stop ratting in that min-maxed fit, get a few guys to rat with and you have neutralized that threat.

When the threat consists of 50-100 players from the cyno blue balling you, good luck with that.

It appears CCP does see the need to push the cyno powers back a little in their development of the limited range cyno jammer. How does that affect your ideas with its change in the balance of AFK cloaky cynos?


If you are going to act as if every hostile has a titan somewhere with a fleet of 50-100 guys...

high sec is ----->

It is really hard to be serious in responding to a comment like this. Could it happen? Yeah. It could. Is it likely to happen? Probably not for a handful of guys ratting in t1 ships fit with t2 modules. Now if it is some blops guys...where you have 8-10 guys, lots of them in bombers, 4-5 guys in PvP fit ships is going to be too much for them.

In other words you are expressing a view that is...well shockingly risk averse. Especially for a resident of null security space.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2526 - 2013-10-21 13:47:04 UTC
Xcom wrote:
I dono what to say anymore. If the majority of eve players rather want broken cloak mechanics then all I can add is, I will enjoy AFKing in your systems with with my 1000 DPS SOE ship after Rubicon.

See you all after the patch, don't be to coy mining or ratting. I have a itching trigger finger that needs feeding.


Look xcom, I am about done with you too.

You drop in here not reading a damn thing and start spouting off. You make two claims:

1. Local is broken.
2. Cloaks are broken.

I agree whole heartedly with 1. I don't agree with 2, but I do agree that AFK cloaking is bad game play as a general rule. I'd like to see it removed, but not when doing so leaves both local as it is and when the attempts to remove AFK cloaking nerf active cloakers too.

So, my preferred solution is to separate local and intel and at the same time nerf cloaks so that AFK cloaking is no longer viable and is only a minor nerf for active cloakers.

Yet somehow despite that solution fitting in fairly well with your two statements you keep blathering on about how I don't see a problem, and blah blah blah.

Heck you didn't even read the OP and told me to read up on a post I had already read and linked! It is really hard for me to not just say you are trolling and so forth.

And don't expect that SoE ship to stay the way it is for too long. I can see that nerf bat coming even now. 1,000 DPS cloaking ship...yeah not OP at all. When everyone switches to that for AFK cloaking it will be nerfed and hard. Big smile

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2527 - 2013-10-21 13:52:03 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
I just figured you can tell if there's a cloaked pilot in the system even on WH space. You just add the person to your notification list and scout the exits. Assuming you saw that person entering the system you can tell if it is still there cloaked or not.
Notification list = free intel.



That is quite alot of work for that "free" intel.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2528 - 2013-10-21 14:22:37 UTC
Damn, can't help myself when there's responses like these!
I'll just limit myself to a couple of posts a day.
Nikk Narrel wrote:
And yet the pilots in wormhole space still won't care.

It's a really simple philosophy they run by.
There is either a hostile visible on grid, or not.

If not, keep in mind one could show up, and prepare accordingly. Then carry on.

If yes, have a response planned, and execute it. There is a finite variety of ships that can threaten, and they usually won't expose themselves unless they think they can win a fight with you.
Either they are right, or you are more prepared than they expect. Either way, you planned for this, and now that plan gets put into motion.
Except they naturally have less risk. As I've said before, make null rats like sleepers, make gates collapsible, remove cynos, and sure I'll go along with the removal of local. The reason they don;t care and they are prepared, is because they are in already omnitanked ships for their rats, and they know that there are limits on the ships that can sneak up to them (only covops ships, of which there are only a few they would worry about).

Teckos Pech wrote:
If you are going to act as if every hostile has a titan somewhere with a fleet of 50-100 guys...

high sec is ----->

It is really hard to be serious in responding to a comment like this. Could it happen? Yeah. It could. Is it likely to happen? Probably not for a handful of guys ratting in t1 ships fit with t2 modules. Now if it is some blops guys...where you have 8-10 guys, lots of them in bombers, 4-5 guys in PvP fit ships is going to be too much for them.

In other words you are expressing a view that is...well shockingly risk averse. Especially for a resident of null security space.
Yeah, right now8-10 bombers will be nothing for them, because they can see them coming. If the bomber could appears on grid launching a bomb of an opposing damage type to the defense against the type of null rats, they would certainly not be nothing. You have to remember we're not talking about right now, we're talking about how damaging these ships would be should local get nuked. There's a difference between being risk averse and resisting a change that gives a particular group a huge advantage.

Teckos Pech wrote:
That is quite alot of work for that "free" intel.
The actual intel, ie knowing the player is online, that's free. Only the context needs work but that work is merely being in local and running your d-scan. Local intel is exactly the same, only the character being there is a given, you would still need to act to determine any other info.
Honestly though, are you now trying to tell me you are perfectly fine with the free intel given over by the watchlist, but you are not fine with local? Personally I think the watchlist should be a friend list agreed on both sides because at present it does give free intel. It's always nice to know when an enemy titan pilot logs on while you're on an op...

Really, it surprises me that your stance would be pro-watchlist.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#2529 - 2013-10-21 14:37:27 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Damn, can't help myself when there's responses like these!
I'll just limit myself to a couple of posts a day.
Nikk Narrel wrote:
And yet the pilots in wormhole space still won't care.

It's a really simple philosophy they run by.
There is either a hostile visible on grid, or not.

If not, keep in mind one could show up, and prepare accordingly. Then carry on.

If yes, have a response planned, and execute it. There is a finite variety of ships that can threaten, and they usually won't expose themselves unless they think they can win a fight with you.
Either they are right, or you are more prepared than they expect. Either way, you planned for this, and now that plan gets put into motion.

Except they naturally have less risk. As I've said before, make null rats like sleepers, make gates collapsible, remove cynos, and sure I'll go along with the removal of local. The reason they don;t care and they are prepared, is because they are in already omnitanked ships for their rats, and they know that there are limits on the ships that can sneak up to them (only covops ships, of which there are only a few they would worry about).


And yet this alleged "less risk" is utterly meaningless.
If they have enough on hand to beat you, you still lose, if the fight happens.

In a wormhole, they don't care about cynos to hot drop with. The whole fleet can be already present to begin with, and the target would be none the wiser.

Only covops ships? Not at all true. Many of the vessels can fit a covops cloak, but when you deal with a group, then their defense shifts to a strength in numbers strategy, and you start to see battlecruisers along with other subcaps.
Warps while cloaked is only really important if your strategy is centered around avoiding a fight.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
If you are going to act as if every hostile has a titan somewhere with a fleet of 50-100 guys...

high sec is ----->

It is really hard to be serious in responding to a comment like this. Could it happen? Yeah. It could. Is it likely to happen? Probably not for a handful of guys ratting in t1 ships fit with t2 modules. Now if it is some blops guys...where you have 8-10 guys, lots of them in bombers, 4-5 guys in PvP fit ships is going to be too much for them.

In other words you are expressing a view that is...well shockingly risk averse. Especially for a resident of null security space.

Yeah, right now8-10 bombers will be nothing for them, because they can see them coming. If the bomber could appears on grid launching a bomb of an opposing damage type to the defense against the type of null rats, they would certainly not be nothing. You have to remember we're not talking about right now, we're talking about how damaging these ships would be should local get nuked. There's a difference between being risk averse and resisting a change that gives a particular group a huge advantage.

And the assumption that a potential target would not have the option to be vigilant against cloaked threats is shortsighted, as it has been repeatedly pointed out how they could be easily warned.
You are implying that they would never be willing to make an effort, or that the effort could never be enough, somehow.

If that's your point, elaborate on it, take ownership, and focus on it.

As to a watch list, knowing a pilot is online is hardly a free intel on the same level as local.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2530 - 2013-10-21 14:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
If you are going to act as if every hostile has a titan somewhere with a fleet of 50-100 guys...

high sec is ----->

It is really hard to be serious in responding to a comment like this. Could it happen? Yeah. It could. Is it likely to happen? Probably not for a handful of guys ratting in t1 ships fit with t2 modules. Now if it is some blops guys...where you have 8-10 guys, lots of them in bombers, 4-5 guys in PvP fit ships is going to be too much for them.

In other words you are expressing a view that is...well shockingly risk averse. Especially for a resident of null security space.


Yeah, right now8-10 bombers will be nothing for them, because they can see them coming. If the bomber could appears on grid launching a bomb of an opposing damage type to the defense against the type of null rats, they would certainly not be nothing. You have to remember we're not talking about right now, we're talking about how damaging these ships would be should local get nuked. There's a difference between being risk averse and resisting a change that gives a particular group a huge advantage.


If you have a hostile AFK cloaking in system and you go out in ships with a rat specific set of resists then you are not playing the game wisely. Go with a PvP fit. With 4-5 people you'll kill the rats no problem and if that hostile shows up, kill him too. If he opens a cyno and brings friends, kill them too, or as many as you can before they get you.

And no, I was responding to Andy who was complaining about cynos. Not cynos should local get nuked, but cynos right now, in the future and even in the past.

Oh and if the hostile is going to show up on grid and launch a bomb he probably wont be lighting a cyno either. I suppose he could, but I think that would be unlikely and it would give you a longer time to kill him. After all, he'd appear on grid, probably within targeting and optimal range, launch the bomb, you target him, he then lights the cyno, but is now taking damage. If he dies soon enough the incoming hostiles may or maynot end up on grid. If part of the income force ends up on grid that is bad for them as they are now weaker and easier to kill.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
That is quite alot of work for that "free" intel.


The actual intel, ie knowing the player is online, that's free. Only the context needs work but that work is merely being in local and running your d-scan. Local intel is exactly the same, only the character being there is a given, you would still need to act to determine any other info.
Honestly though, are you now trying to tell me you are perfectly fine with the free intel given over by the watchlist, but you are not fine with local? Personally I think the watchlist should be a friend list agreed on both sides because at present it does give free intel. It's always nice to know when an enemy titan pilot logs on while you're on an op...

Really, it surprises me that your stance would be pro-watchlist.


Local intel is not exactly the same in a WH. You know it. And I am not pro-watch list, that is an assumption you made based on my post.* My post was that in a WH, even with a guy added to your watchlist it is not going to give you free intel in that WH. You'd still have to sit and watch the entry points. If there is more than one you'd need a friend or alts. Even if you simply rely on d-scan that is still more work than null local where he'd pop up in local irrespective of how many alts you have, how often you spam the d-scan button or anything else.

I agree though that watch lists can be used to earn free intel. Somewhat limited free intel, but it is free none-the-less. I'd be fine if it were removed as I rarely use it when I need to talk to people (i.e. I ping them on Jabber, see if they are on TS or mumble, etc.). Or come up with a way so it isn't free.

*By the I love how you ask in your post if I'm fine with the free intel a watch list could provide, then you have the arrogance to go ahead and answer for me!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2531 - 2013-10-21 15:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
If you are going to act as if every hostile has a titan somewhere with a fleet of 50-100 guys...

high sec is ----->

It is really hard to be serious in responding to a comment like this. Could it happen? Yeah. It could. Is it likely to happen? Probably not for a handful of guys ratting in t1 ships fit with t2 modules. Now if it is some blops guys...where you have 8-10 guys, lots of them in bombers, 4-5 guys in PvP fit ships is going to be too much for them.

In other words you are expressing a view that is...well shockingly risk averse. Especially for a resident of null security space.

Yeah, right now8-10 bombers will be nothing for them, because they can see them coming. If the bomber could appears on grid launching a bomb of an opposing damage type to the defense against the type of null rats, they would certainly not be nothing. You have to remember we're not talking about right now, we're talking about how damaging these ships would be should local get nuked. There's a difference between being risk averse and resisting a change that gives a particular group a huge advantage.

And the assumption that a potential target would not have the option to be vigilant against cloaked threats is shortsighted, as it has been repeatedly pointed out how they could be easily warned.
You are implying that they would never be willing to make an effort, or that the effort could never be enough, somehow.

If that's your point, elaborate on it, take ownership, and focus on it.

As to a watch list, knowing a pilot is online is hardly a free intel on the same level as local.


To build off of Nikk's points. I advocate a separate intel system that players in sov null have to essentially build up and is open to being attacked. This system would warn you that people are around. It would not be perfect like local currently is, but it would still be pretty good. In other words, unless you guys were super cheap or your intel infrastructure had been compromised (and shame on you for not checking) you'd have some indication a hostile is around. Depending on the upgrades and how that guy got in system you might even have ship type.

And again on the watch list, yeah it is free intel. However, it is not that huge a deal for me. I'm much more sanguine about it than local. Still if it were removed I probably would not care too much.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2532 - 2013-10-21 15:30:32 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
And yet this alleged "less risk" is utterly meaningless.
If they have enough on hand to beat you, you still lose, if the fight happens.

In a wormhole, they don't care about cynos to hot drop with. The whole fleet can be already present to begin with, and the target would be none the wiser.

Only covops ships? Not at all true. Many of the vessels can fit a covops cloak, but when you deal with a group, then their defense shifts to a strength in numbers strategy, and you start to see battlecruisers along with other subcaps.
Warps while cloaked is only really important if your strategy is centered around avoiding a fight.
II think you underestimate how hard it is to get a fleet into a sealed up wormhole without alerting anyone to your presence. The chances of you all staying cloaked, not collapsing the wormhole, and not being seen by a scout on either end is very very slim. WH players generally just keep an eye out the same as anyone else, then move if their circumstances change. If a new WH appears they collapse it. If their scout flags a fleet they move out of danger to refit to counter it.
And yes, only covops can sneak up on a WH player, since they would see a non-cloaker on d-scan before they'd finished aligning. Any WH player getting caught in an anom by a non-cloaker is not very experienced to say the least.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
And the assumption that a potential target would not have the option to be vigilant against cloaked threats is shortsighted, as it has been repeatedly pointed out how they could be easily warned.
You are implying that they would never be willing to make an effort, or that the effort could never be enough, somehow.

If that's your point, elaborate on it, take ownership, and focus on it.

As to a watch list, knowing a pilot is online is hardly a free intel on the same level as local.
No, I'm saying that there are some situation where the intel would not be available for whatever reason. you seem to utterly ignore all of that. in your eyes its totally balanced because an alliance running 24/7 intel and scouts can still avoid a cloaker. You realise there are other situation right?
At best, with 24/7 intel an alliance would be no better off than now (which is stupid in itself since the effort difference between a whole alliance and a solo t3 cloaker would be monstrous), but in any other situation the cloaker has a massive advantage. That's not balance.

A lot of anti-watchlist types would disagree with you. They stick it in the same category.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#2533 - 2013-10-21 15:33:14 UTC
Line Khagah wrote:
a good solution to solve the permanent AFK cloaking .
but allows for semi AFK cloaking play correctly.

it makes more AFK cloaking is a bit longer skiller.
and now it costs ISK.

1.
I propose instead that the cloaking module consumes
- The fuel is the same as for cyno
- Or cap booster,
- Or nanites,
in function of going to say that it is very energy intensive made or that changes the structure nanite surface of the shell to make it invisible to the scanner


This made the module will automatically limited time
- Either by the hold of the vessel (for fuel)
- Either by the number of charges contained in the module (cap booster, nanite)
fuel consumption or the sizes of cap booster, or the number of nanite consumed at each cycle would depend on the size of vessels.

the max cloaking will therefore depend
- The size of the compartment for the fuel,
- Or the number of load (cap booster nanite) contained in the module,
- And depending on the cycle time of the module cloak.


I think it is necessary to have a long cycle time of about 3 minutes per cycle that leads to a cloak time of 30 minutes with 10 charges
more skill is added Cloaking time (x6) it increases the duration by 20% level is a max length of 6 minutes per cycle with a time of 1 hour max cloaking.

recharge time of the modules will also be taken into account I think a time of 6 minutes to reload
- It is short access to be done anywhere,
- But as long access to the ship is detected by scanning probe fight

this cooldown pourrat also be optimized by a cloaking skill load (x6) will reduce this cooldown by 5% per level which reduces to a max 4 minutes 30 seconds.

2.
He'll also welcome to deploy bubbles with wave decloak the wave timer is de 1 minutes, must also access the wave is distinguished hard for a player who wants to pass between two waves is a doubt.

when a ship goes into the range and the wave is burst y is decloak

small with a range of 75 km
Large TII up with a wide range of 250 km

all cycle times and wave decloak are to optimize on, even if I think I have a good compromise Locate on timer

but I think I have a good data base game, easily integrable with CCP mechanism because all are already used by another module that allows semi AFK cloaking always with players this head-on their screens even though there were several ALT

it also allows servers to saturate CCP account logged totally inactive but which I think should take nothing for resources

Egad. The anti-AFK Cloaking Threads Post is in danger of spawning a new AFK cloaking discussion....
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2534 - 2013-10-21 15:38:17 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
If you have a hostile AFK cloaking in system and you go out in ships with a rat specific set of resists then you are not playing the game wisely. Go with a PvP fit. With 4-5 people you'll kill the rats no problem and if that hostile shows up, kill him too. If he opens a cyno and brings friends, kill them too, or as many as you can before they get you.

And no, I was responding to Andy who was complaining about cynos. Not cynos should local get nuked, but cynos right now, in the future and even in the past.

Oh and if the hostile is going to show up on grid and launch a bomb he probably wont be lighting a cyno either. I suppose he could, but I think that would be unlikely and it would give you a longer time to kill him. After all, he'd appear on grid, probably within targeting and optimal range, launch the bomb, you target him, he then lights the cyno, but is now taking damage. If he dies soon enough the incoming hostiles may or maynot end up on grid. If part of the income force ends up on grid that is bad for them as they are now weaker and easier to kill.
With the removal of local, you wouldn't know if there's a cloaker in local. Nor would you know if there is a fleet of them in local.
I agree that the generic removal of cynos is pretty dumb, as they server a purpose, but their removal would have to follow a removal of local, even if just by cyno jammers affecting covert cynos.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Local intel is not exactly the same in a WH. You know it. And I am not pro-watch list, that is an assumption you made based on my post.* My post was that in a WH, even with a guy added to your watchlist it is not going to give you free intel in that WH. You'd still have to sit and watch the entry points. If there is more than one you'd need a friend or alts. Even if you simply rely on d-scan that is still more work than null local where he'd pop up in local irrespective of how many alts you have, how often you spam the d-scan button or anything else.

I agree though that watch lists can be used to earn free intel. Somewhat limited free intel, but it is free none-the-less. I'd be fine if it were removed as I rarely use it when I need to talk to people (i.e. I ping them on Jabber, see if they are on TS or mumble, etc.). Or come up with a way so it isn't free.

*By the I love how you ask in your post if I'm fine with the free intel a watch list could provide, then you have the arrogance to go ahead and answer for me!
Hey, your quote came across as "watchlists aren't free intel". They are as free as local. Local requires you to be in system to see it, the watchlist doesn't. If you know where a player logged off a watchlist provides free info that they are now there. With local, I can find out if someone is in system, but only by going there, I can't find out from across the universe. I'd say in level of effort vs information they are about equal.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2535 - 2013-10-21 15:46:40 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
To build off of Nikk's points. I advocate a separate intel system that players in sov null have to essentially build up and is open to being attacked. This system would warn you that people are around. It would not be perfect like local currently is, but it would still be pretty good. In other words, unless you guys were super cheap or your intel infrastructure had been compromised (and shame on you for not checking) you'd have some indication a hostile is around. Depending on the upgrades and how that guy got in system you might even have ship type.

And again on the watch list, yeah it is free intel. However, it is not that huge a deal for me. I'm much more sanguine about it than local. Still if it were removed I probably would not care too much.
I'm going to approach this in a different way.

Why?
Why should null sec alliances be forced to put in all this extra effort and isk that noone else has to do, just because they want to live in one area. Groups like BL who don't hold space would not need to care, as they are usually on the move anyway.
The whole basis for your change seems to be jammed in simply because you have something against null blocks having the same intel as everyone else as a built in mechanic. You want to get rid of it, because you don't care about it and you know null guys do. It's like a vegetarian at a restaurant campaigning to get rid of meat and claiming its fair because everyone has to be subject to the loss of meat.

At the end of the day you still haven't covered the balance issues it would introduce, and the only reason you seem to give for doing it is because you don't like the idea of free intel. It wouldn't balance anything, it would just cause massive issues for fleet fights, massive issues for logistics, and honestly would make null less desirable than it already is. And all for what? All so we can sit around going "phew, no free intel!". Sounds to me like an enormous waste of CCPs time developing, testing and balancing this.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2536 - 2013-10-21 15:47:43 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
With the removal of local, you wouldn't know if there's a cloaker in local. Nor would you know if there is a fleet of them in local.
I agree that the generic removal of cynos is pretty dumb, as they server a purpose, but their removal would have to follow a removal of local, even if just by cyno jammers affecting covert cynos.


Of course you wont know they are in local, because that would be by design. Depending on your intel infrastructure you could know if they were in system.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Hey, your quote came across as "watchlists aren't free intel". They are as free as local. Local requires you to be in system to see it, the watchlist doesn't. If you know where a player logged off a watchlist provides free info that they are now there. With local, I can find out if someone is in system, but only by going there, I can't find out from across the universe. I'd say in level of effort vs information they are about equal.


I was pointing out that with this "free intel" came quite a bit of work for it to "work" in a WH. That is undeniably true. Watching the entry points is work. Hitting the d-scan is work. Try hitting d-scan regularly while doing stuff in a WH. Let alone watching 2 alt accounts and trying to do stuff in a WH. If that is your definition of "free" you need a better dictionary I'm afraid.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2537 - 2013-10-21 16:12:39 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
To build off of Nikk's points. I advocate a separate intel system that players in sov null have to essentially build up and is open to being attacked. This system would warn you that people are around. It would not be perfect like local currently is, but it would still be pretty good. In other words, unless you guys were super cheap or your intel infrastructure had been compromised (and shame on you for not checking) you'd have some indication a hostile is around. Depending on the upgrades and how that guy got in system you might even have ship type.

And again on the watch list, yeah it is free intel. However, it is not that huge a deal for me. I'm much more sanguine about it than local. Still if it were removed I probably would not care too much.
I'm going to approach this in a different way.

Why?
Why should null sec alliances be forced to put in all this extra effort and isk that noone else has to do, just because they want to live in one area. Groups like BL who don't hold space would not need to care, as they are usually on the move anyway.
The whole basis for your change seems to be jammed in simply because you have something against null blocks having the same intel as everyone else as a built in mechanic. You want to get rid of it, because you don't care about it and you know null guys do. It's like a vegetarian at a restaurant campaigning to get rid of meat and claiming its fair because everyone has to be subject to the loss of meat.

At the end of the day you still haven't covered the balance issues it would introduce, and the only reason you seem to give for doing it is because you don't like the idea of free intel. It wouldn't balance anything, it would just cause massive issues for fleet fights, massive issues for logistics, and honestly would make null less desirable than it already is. And all for what? All so we can sit around going "phew, no free intel!". Sounds to me like an enormous waste of CCPs time developing, testing and balancing this.


Okay, a group like BL would most definitely care as they'd no longer get to use local as an intel tool now would they? It is your intel system so it is your information. I'd even have various maps stop handing out free intel like how many rats killed in a given period of time or the average number of pilots logged into a system.

So now BL wants to do something in your space, they will have to go in there and find stuff without using local to help them out. You jump a bunch of capitals from system X to system Y...they wont know unless they have a guy in those systems and they are actively using d-scan or probes. So long as you own X and Y and have the proper intel infrastructure you'd know BL had a guy in there.

Information would become asymmetrical basically, with it favoring the sov holder...at least until somebody hit that sov structure and knocked it out or corrupted it.

Oh and can you stop telling me what I think? It is arrogant and presumptuous. And in case you haven't noticed, we are in the same coalition for crying out loud. I live in null. It is supposed to be the most exciting part of the game, the most dangerous, and yet it is often the most boring. The other night I was listening to alliance mates talking about expensive faction ships. They said they'd use them in null for things like ratting, but they'd never ever undock them in high sec. In high sec it would be a gank magnate. But in null they'd be considerably safer, so much so they'd actually do Stuff™. I found that remark rather telling. In that it means null is in many ways safer than high sec.

And you yourself have said that incomes in high sec and null are comparable...again that indicates null is no more dangerous than high sec. Yeah, you have to play differently, but by altering your play style in moderate ways you can achieve a level of safety equal to or greater than high sec is probably one reason why null sec incomes are comparable to high sec incomes. I find that...well wrong. This is something that is in quite a few of Nikk's posts. I don't cover it as much, but I completely agree with him.

Basically, I want to do this to make null more exciting. Why is that wrong? Maybe it is the wrong way, but your constant questioning of my motives is becoming tiresome and is nothing more than a simple ad hominem attack--i.e. it is an argument without any real substance.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2538 - 2013-10-21 16:20:17 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
I just figured you can tell if there's a cloaked pilot in the system even on WH space. You just add the person to your notification list and scout the exits. Assuming you saw that person entering the system you can tell if it is still there cloaked or not.
Notification list = free intel.

And yet the pilots in wormhole space still won't care.

It's a really simple philosophy they run by.
There is either a hostile visible on grid, or not.

That's not true. I have a PI alt in a WH. To be able to use the local corp's POCOs without risk of being attacked I simply added every one of their members to my watchlist. Free intel. Wormhole pilot, do care.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2539 - 2013-10-21 16:21:55 UTC
Let me also add this is a direction CCP has been going in, in general IMO. More and more of the game, over the years has become player based. Before you could buy all the stuff for POS fuel from NPCs for a fixed price. CCP changed that with PI. Now that entire aspect of the game is driven by players. Same things used to be in place for ores, or so I'm told (maybe some of the old veterans like Mag's can confirm this). The price of ores were fixed and you could sell to the NPCs any amount you had. Now that market is entirely driven by players (or very, very nearly so, I suppose some of those dopey kernite missions have an impact). The past is often a good predictor of the future.

My guess is eventually CCP would like pretty much everything in the game to be done by the players. They might keep local or perfect intel in high sec for new players who are just learning the extremely complex game mechanics. But in several years I could see them replacing local as an intel source in sov null, and maybe even NPC null and low sec with something else. And we already see one Dev who has indicated that he'd like to see local and intel being separated.

Is it a big change? Yeah, but there have been big changes in the past and the game adapted just fine.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2540 - 2013-10-21 16:26:08 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
I just figured you can tell if there's a cloaked pilot in the system even on WH space. You just add the person to your notification list and scout the exits. Assuming you saw that person entering the system you can tell if it is still there cloaked or not.
Notification list = free intel.

And yet the pilots in wormhole space still won't care.

It's a really simple philosophy they run by.
There is either a hostile visible on grid, or not.

That's not true. I have a PI alt in a WH. To be able to use the local corp's POCOs without risk of being attacked I simply added every one of their members to my watchlist. Free intel. Wormhole pilot, do care.


That is a good point on the free intel in a WH for the watch list function. I suppose in a WH you could disable it. After all, you are in a WH and not connected to other communication infrastructure like in K-space.

Oh and I'll note it is a scenario a bit different than you initially described. And they may actually like having you do PI in there, after all have they set a positive tax rate? If not, shame on them. They could basically be getting some isk off you by setting a reasonable tax rate (e.g. 10%). Money flowing into their corp wallet from all your work. And if all you are doing is PI...I wouldn't be too bothered by it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online