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baltec1

Bat Country

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 19,001

#6241 - 2013-10-18 19:56:22 UTC

chaosgrimm wrote:

Yet most do. Heck the golem 8 effective launchers compared to the raven's 6, and the kronos gets 8 effective turrets over the megathron's 7. Both get better application on top.

The maelstrom and abaddon can actually out dps their race's marauders in certain situations

CCP want the t1 ships to still be valid so it stands to reason they should do better in some situations.

chaosgrimm

Synth Tech

Likes received: 203

#6242 - 2013-10-18 19:59:55 UTC | Edited by: chaosgrimm

baltec1 wrote:

chaosgrimm wrote:

CCP want the t1 ships to still be valid so it stands to reason they should do better in some situations.

Aside from the cost which affects each race, when is a raven better than a golem or a megathron better than a kronos in terms of performance?

Brib Vogt

Doomheim

Likes received: 46

#6243 - 2013-10-18 20:04:26 UTC | Edited by: Brib Vogt

michaelthered wrote:

So they've killed the AC vargur then with this rebalance it sounds like. Meh. Then they're gonna nerf the Machariel here soon so 800mm AC's are going to die.

Nah i wouldn't say that. It's just Bastion, MJD and ACs do not work well without an additional AB. And then i can just ignore the MJD totally.

In pve its all about ISK/ hour OR earning ISK as close to AFKing as possible.

Tyberius Franklin

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,014

#6244 - 2013-10-18 20:06:48 UTC

chaosgrimm wrote:

The Raven has 8 effective turrets with skills, alongside the Golem and RNI
The Kronos is actually 10 to 9.33 of the Megathron.

Since we're talking about marauder capable pilots we should be including the skills they would obviously have

baltec1

Bat Country

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 19,001

#6245 - 2013-10-18 20:07:42 UTC | Edited by: baltec1

chaosgrimm wrote:

baltec1 wrote:

chaosgrimm wrote:

CCP want the t1 ships to still be valid so it stands to reason they should do better in some situations.

Aside from the cost which affects each race, when is a raven better than a golem or a megathron better than a kronos in terms of performance?

Mega does fast roaming gangs better than the new kronos and fleet work with rails and blasters.


Brib Vogt Doomheim Likes received: 46	#6246 - 2013-10-18 20:14:16 UTC baltec1 wrote: Mega does fast roaming gangs better than the new kronos and fleet work with rails and blasters. OMG can't believe i am saying this, but he is right.

Arthur Aihaken

CODE.d

Likes received: 6,149

#6247 - 2013-10-18 20:20:57 UTC

chaosgrimm wrote:

Aside from the cost which affects each race, when is a raven better than a golem or a megathron better than a kronos in terms of performance?

In terms of non-Bastion performance, a RNI will out-DPS and out-damage a Golem. The explosion radius bonus on the RNI is far superior for damage application than the explosion velocity bonus on the Golem, it can run three sentries (the 2 extra sentries add most of the extra DPS), sports three rig slots and can even run a fifth ballistic controller if so desired (+2% DPS). An afterburner and optional nanofiber also mean that you can tank some of the damage since it's the fastest Raven variant.

However, the term "performance" can and does differ - so opinions may vary.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

TheFace Asano

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 47

#6248 - 2013-10-18 20:38:17 UTC

chaosgrimm wrote:

TheFace Asano wrote:

chaosgrimm wrote:

I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:

= Paladin vs Abaddon =
Raw turret dps is equal.
Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.

= Vargur vs Maelstrom =
Raw turret dps is equal.
Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50

In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.

How to implement:
My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauders very different from most pirates. My suggestion for band/bay:
Paladin 100/ 150
Golem 100/150
Kronos 125/200
Vargur 125/ 175

Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better

This is paper dps, though. With the Vargur / Maelstrom example, the Vargur has a falloff bonus that will increase it's applied dps when the Vargur and Maelstrom are on equal distance from target. With a standard 3xGyro 2x TE setup with 800mm AC and Faction EMP L falloff for the Vargur is 51 and 34 for the Maelstrom. DPS at 40km for the Vargur is around 550 while the Maelstrom is right at 300 DPS. The Vargur does the same 300 dps at 60km. This is before Bastion. Tracking on a moving target at any transversal is going to be higher on the Vargur as well. The dps is really only similar before 15km (50dps advantage for the Vargur at 10km). By 20km the Vargur is maintaining 100 dps advantage. This is before drones. Drone dps is going to be situational.

If you factor in 5x Hobgoblin on the Vargur and 4x Garde II on the Maelstrom, the Maelstrom is more dps (without factoring tracking) than the Vargur until 25km where they do the same dps, then the Vargur has pretty decent dps out to 60km where the difference is 400dps to the Vargur and 100 for the Maelstrom. It is pretty clear that both have uses and strengths and weaknesses.

You are correct in what you are saying and I do not disagree. I argue that most other combat ships from t1 to t2 get application bonuses as well as raw dmg increases

For some reason they do not want the mauraders to have increased dps over the t1/faction/pirates for the battleship class like the HAC's get in the cruiser line. I personally like the Arty Vargur on SiSi, it works well. The AC version doesn't feel as good as a Mach, but it definately works better than the AC Maelstrom. There aren't any anoms where I am in null to test out further. Belt rats give me a good indication though. The Tempest / TFI and Phloon Fleet are all lower in damage and application. The Phloon fleet can fit cruise missiles for better damage (cruise just rock), or RHML for increased damage to smaller targets +5x Sentry, but that isn't really a good comparison as it really depends on the fit as to how much or less effective the Phloon Fleet will be in a situation.

Dinsdale Pirannha

Pirannha Corp

Likes received: 3,519

#6249 - 2013-10-18 20:46:35 UTC

baltec1 wrote:

chaosgrimm wrote:

baltec1 wrote:

chaosgrimm wrote:

CCP want the t1 ships to still be valid so it stands to reason they should do better in some situations.

Aside from the cost which affects each race, when is a raven better than a golem or a megathron better than a kronos in terms of performance?

Mega does fast roaming gangs better than the new kronos and fleet work with rails and blasters.

Fast roaming gangs..did I just read that?
Fast roaming battleships...LOL.

Wow, you really have to dig deep, don't you, for that one.

Roark BleedBlue

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 15

#6250 - 2013-10-18 20:47:28 UTC

I just don't understand the need for this, other than "this takes less effort than making a new 'Bastion' ship"

Why take a PVE specialty ship, and cram it into PVP? If I want to PVE, I use a PVE ship. If I want to PVP, I use a PVP ship. Eve is about finding the sharpest knife for your expected situation. If I guess right on the circumstance, and make my ship/fit absolutely as close to perfect as I can for that situation...I have the advantage. If I guess wrong, I don't.

How about 'rebalancing' the Hulk to sorta be viable in incursions, at least on paper?

How about a module that makes it a little easier to dual active tank, armor and shield at the same time?

These suggestions are as ridiculous to this game as the Paladin 'Rebalance'

Why I really enjoy Eve, is that I'm rewarded/punished less on the basis of the amount of time I spend grinding...and I'm rewarded/punished more on the strength of my intelligence.

Pushing this ship into a dual role, on paper at least, will mostly damn it for either situation in reality.

For cheaper ships, multi-role possibilities are fine, as an economy option, because if you were trying to be top tier in whatever you're doing..you'd spend the isk to specialize. Marauders are too valuable to be this ambiguous in their usage.


baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Horde Likes received: 19,001	#6251 - 2013-10-18 20:54:43 UTC Roark BleedBlue wrote: Why take a PVE specialty ship, and cram it into PVP? CCP do not want a combat ship that is terrible at pvp and large parts of pve.


baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Horde Likes received: 19,001	#6252 - 2013-10-18 20:58:06 UTC Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Fast roaming gangs..did I just read that? Fast roaming battleships...LOL. Wow, you really have to dig deep, don't you, for that one. I take these out on frigate roams and keep up.

MeBiatch

GRR GOONS

Likes received: 2,108

#6253 - 2013-10-18 21:40:07 UTC

baltec1 wrote:

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Fast roaming gangs..did I just read that?
Fast roaming battleships...LOL.

Wow, you really have to dig deep, don't you, for that one.

I take these out on frigate roams and keep up.

its true its all he flies is mega's

though after rubicon... he might have to change that as the mega will slow down the gang.

perhaps he can go for a rifter... that looks like a baby mega...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Joe Risalo

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,261

#6254 - 2013-10-18 22:23:55 UTC

So much crying...

"It will suck at incursions"
Well, get two ships.. One for fleet pve, and use these for solo pve where they will outperform just about anything else.

"It sucks with short range guns"
They've always been outperformed with short range guns.
Vindi beats Kronos
RNI beats Golem
Mach beats Vargur
Bhaalgorn beats Paladin
Nightmare used to out snip Paladin

Now these ships are the best performing long range BS's in the game.

"Over tanking is a waist"
Well, when it actually requires less slots than a standard tank on these ships, how is it a loss.
We can fit more damage/application/utility mods then we used to be able to.
Over tanking simply means they're capable of doing more now than they used to.

"They have no mobility, thus will die"
Really? They were never that mobile before, yet apparently this wasn't a problem then?
You stack that on top of their existing sig radius, and even if you were moving, you still got hammered.
The only thing you have to worry about now is getting dread blopped, and lets face it, you shouldn't have used them in a possible dread fight anyway.

"They're unusable in pvp"
Flat out lie.. As they are on live, the only time they really see a decent amount of pvp is during the alliance tournament.
Due to their size and lacking mobility on live, you're guaranteed dead without plenty of logistics support.

With bastion, you'll have damn near the local tank that logistics could provide, if not better, and with more resists.

The major issue with this argument is that they're such an expensive ship, most people won't fly them in pvp anyway.
You factor their current price and lackluster capabilities on live, they're nothing more than a floating penata.

"They don't have web bonuses, and suck without it"
Uhh, apparently everyone seems to forget about range.
You can MJD with these ships every minute.
If targets are getting close enough to break traversal, then you're doing it wrong.
You don't need a web with long range guns.
I currently fly a nightmare on live WITHOUT WEBS.
If it was such a big issue, everyone would complain.
I use t2 tachs with navy ammo and blast pretty much everything before it comes close.
The only time I have problems tracking something is when they get under my guns, and it's never anything but a frig, which my drones dispatch pretty quickly... If your drones are dieing, then you need to LTP anyway.

All these complaints are nothing but refusal to change despite their current lack of usability to begin with.
If you can't see how everyone of these questions is negated with the current iteration, then you are either very lacking in vision, or suck too bad to see the capabilities.

Everyone of these issues is a non-factor if you're using the ship as intended.
Long range guns, bastion, MJD.
Working as intended.. LTP..


Brib Vogt Doomheim Likes received: 46	#6255 - 2013-10-18 22:30:03 UTC 1 Joe Risalo wrote: So much crying... Don't speak about PvP. If your Account is your main please just don't

chaosgrimm

Synth Tech

Likes received: 203

#6256 - 2013-10-18 22:36:45 UTC | Edited by: chaosgrimm

sry in advance about the sizable post, got home from work and saw a bunch of replies so imma try to address them all at once xD.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

fair enough, compared to the current iteration, Raven and megathron can achieve higher raw dps than their marauders as well. (mega via the extra low)

baltec1 wrote:

Mega does fast roaming gangs better than the new kronos and fleet work with rails and blasters.

you honestly took me by surpise there, and even though there are subjective parts to this and given the shift from PvE to PvP, on paper it looks correct. So I must say: Well played sir! xD

However, your point does support my original argument about a dmg increase for marauders. generally, through gallente combat ship lines, the t2 version gets slower max speed + better raw damage. The unqiue part about the gallente t1s is traditionally the max speed, why a sudden shift to max dmg, align, and dronebay?

TheFace Asano wrote:

chaosgrimm wrote:

...
My suggestion for band/bay:
Paladin 100/ 150
Golem 100/150
Kronos 125/200
Vargur 125/ 175
...

For some reason they do not want the mauraders to have increased dps over the t1/faction/pirates for the battleship class like the HAC's get in the cruiser line.
...

Agreed, but the above suggestion, with the exception of the nightmare/paladin, would not allow the marauders to meet or surpass the pirates in raw dps.


Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 1,261	#6257 - 2013-10-18 22:45:38 UTC Brib Vogt wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: So much crying... Don't speak about PvP. If your Account is your main please just don't Not my main

cyndrogen

The Greatest Corp in the Universe

Likes received: 705

#6258 - 2013-10-18 23:04:50 UTC

Is it possible to rebalance the Golem model a bit?

When I first saw the new design I was horrified, something about the look of the ship really bothered me but I could not figure out and pin point exactly what it was. Then I downloaded the model and started to play around and change the proportions.

I think the wings are too short, they make the ship look tiny, like a toy.

Here are a few screenshots of modification I made, while I am not suggesting that this is how the ship should look I would like you to at least consider adjusting the wings, maybe by posting these I hope to bring the proportions issue to the modeling team who are working on the new design. Again these are just suggestions and I am not at all an expert in ship design, but just as an artist the new proportions look odd.

Thanks for reading this and here are the images:

Alternate Version 1

http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV
http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#0
http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#1
http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#2
http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#3
http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#4
http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#5
http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#6
http://imgur.com/Oj9azSm,f4GU9OU,ELZci5L,ER6XLgY,xltd3Pz,QqqxHwj,qtYyRgI,4wNMzZV#7

Alternate Version 2

http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#0
http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#1
http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#2
http://imgur.com/U07kdNB,u0dKZ60,H7wNa2f,Xpg0NST#3

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Serge SC

The Valhalla Project

Likes received: 77

#6259 - 2013-10-18 23:33:46 UTC

cyndrogen wrote:

How'd you downloaded the model?

Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC

cyndrogen

The Greatest Corp in the Universe

Likes received: 705

#6260 - 2013-10-19 00:49:16 UTC

Serge SC wrote:

How'd you downloaded the model?

The model was downloaded from Singularity. It's live on the singularity servers.

You have to also download the latest version of triexporter which allows you to extract the game models and textures used. See this thread:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3743611#post3743611

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

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