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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6221 - 2013-10-18 18:21:41 UTC
Wedgetail wrote:


if it can kill a rat it can kill a player, it's just a question of when.


Untrue.

NPC ships act and fit nothing like us. This is why pve only players are so bad at fitting, flying and even adapting to changes.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6222 - 2013-10-18 18:30:58 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:


Meh, suppose you use 2 lows + bastion for tank, that leaves u with 5 lows for upgrades / puts u on par with vagur lows.

Although I want to avoid pirate comparisons, the vindi has 125 band and better turret dmg with the same number of lows, so it isn't completely outclassed.


Vindi cannot fit a two slot tank for level 4s.



So u use a 3 low slot tank and miss out on a dda. Don't have EFT available atm but isn't a DDA like 85 ish dps @ all V with garde IIs? The vindi would still have its advantages in turret dps and the training reqs are lower
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6223 - 2013-10-18 18:40:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Wedgetail wrote:


if it can kill a rat it can kill a player, it's just a question of when.


Untrue.

NPC ships act and fit nothing like us. This is why pve only players are so bad at fitting, flying and even adapting to changes.



only some NPC's - and yes most PVE pilots fall into the trap of consistency, which was behind my remark about the path of least resistance, (if a fit works what reason is there to change it?) - incursion runners are the same, always fighting the same fight will lead to developing mental habits, following patterns so your brain doesn't have to work so hard.

to get these kinds of people to change their behavior requires a great deal of effort, their current methods have to be forced into breaking to 'motivate' them to make an adaptation, and even then most of them will wait for the minority to teach them how rather than work it out themselves. X)
Shivanthar
#6224 - 2013-10-18 18:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Oh Joe, you have to do this, don't you :P Ok here we go:

Joe Risalo wrote:

What you're not factoring here is that killing targets 100km away is completing faster.
With an arty fit, you will have killed several targets before they get into AC range. This means faster...


Killing targets from 100km away is not necessarily "completing faster". How would you say that?

With an arty fit, you will have killed between 2-4 targets, before waiting 14-16 seconds to get another shot.
Before getting my Vargur, I've played with Maelstrom very long time, I can say each of my 1400mm could pop one frig. But, what if it misses? Recovery from missed shots on AC is much faster than waiting for a whole arty cycle.

Instead of sniping with an arty Vargur, I could simply go with sentry drone-fitted TFI, believe me, it will be even more faster at the same range and ROF and applied damage that Tech II drones has. Practically. Not on the paper!

Joe Risalo wrote:

You're not factoring the bigger picture here.
Odds are you will run more than one bastion cycle before you are able to clear a room.
I MJD out, Bastion, kill some stuff, MJD to gate, bastion, kill some stuff, and end bastion cycle while there are 2-3 ships left.


Two factors for me:
- That bigger picture, I can already do with my drone sniper has no enjoyment for me.
- By the time we both reach to the gate, I will have my hands covered with blood.

Joe Risalo wrote:

Point is, even if we're able to get to the gate at the same time, I am doing so much more effectively in that i'm not losing out to tracking difficulties during this process.


I will give you credit here, but that effectiveness comes from less ammo you will spend for your arty shots. Nothing else.

There are no tracking difficulties for a AC Vargur pilot. I'm using AC first of all, second I will have tracking bonus coming from my Marauders skill and 2 TE's on my lows. I've been giving hell with my AC Vargur so far, and this point you're trying to argue is "virtual", nothing practical. At least, I've never experienced anything like this.

Quote:

You clearly don't understand the facts I have been trying to argue here. This is a re-balance thread and I've been arguing something much different. I can fit an armor tanked Vargur, even though it is a ST, with no problem, but you see, it would be just writing something to fill spaces...


Joe Risalo wrote:
HUH?


Ok, I'll give the full credit to you, I couldn't clarify myself even a bit :P
When a talk start to turn into fitting changes, it generally goes out of concept, so far in a way that it nullifies the point of counter-argument of mjd bonus.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6225 - 2013-10-18 18:45:10 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:


Meh, suppose you use 2 lows + bastion for tank, that leaves u with 5 lows for upgrades / puts u on par with vagur lows.

Although I want to avoid pirate comparisons, the vindi has 125 band and better turret dmg with the same number of lows, so it isn't completely outclassed.


Vindi cannot fit a two slot tank for level 4s.



So u use a 3 low slot tank. Don't have EFT available atm but isn't a DDA like 85 ish dps @ all V with garde IIs? The vindi would still have its advantages in turret dps and the training reqs are lower


With your Idea I break 1700 dps before overheating on a blaster kronos.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6226 - 2013-10-18 18:55:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:


Meh, suppose you use 2 lows + bastion for tank, that leaves u with 5 lows for upgrades / puts u on par with vagur lows.

Although I want to avoid pirate comparisons, the vindi has 125 band and better turret dmg with the same number of lows, so it isn't completely outclassed.


Vindi cannot fit a two slot tank for level 4s.



So u use a 3 low slot tank. Don't have EFT available atm but isn't a DDA like 85 ish dps @ all V with garde IIs? The vindi would still have its advantages in turret dps and the training reqs are lower


With your Idea I break 1700 dps before overheating on a blaster kronos.


Again, no EFT atm, quick battle clinic search shows a vindi with 1875 b4 overheating using 3 stabs
Kane Fenris
NWP
#6227 - 2013-10-18 19:07:48 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

You are deconsiredign the 15 seconds a marauder takes more or less to correct its direction so you MJD to the correct position. Of course some of that overlaps, but its more complicated aand at end less efficient because the propulsion mod is more versatile. SPecially when the distances are smal like 20 km to a gate.



havent been on testserver myself but from this i conclude you cant rotate (align) while in bastion mode?

...if so that would be sad and should be changed

as someone who HAS tested the changes on sisi I will tell you that it makes no difference since you keep lock on the rats throughout so even as you deactivate bastion, align, jump, land and bastion up you will be applying dps. something youd be doing regardless if you were mwd to the gate or mjd. only difference is that I now have 4more modules dedicated to applying my dps more effectively than a ship with 1/3 more dps.

As someone who has not used mjd before I will say iy was easy, effective and intuitive to use.



...and i tell you it will make a B I G difference in some pvp scenarios
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6228 - 2013-10-18 19:11:03 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:

= Paladin vs Abaddon =
Raw turret dps is equal.
Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.

= Vargur vs Maelstrom =
Raw turret dps is equal.
Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50

In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.

How to implement:
My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauders very different from most pirates. My suggestion for band/bay:
Paladin 100/ 150
Golem 100/150
Kronos 125/200
Vargur 125/ 175

Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better


This is paper dps, though. With the Vargur / Maelstrom example, the Vargur has a falloff bonus that will increase it's applied dps when the Vargur and Maelstrom are on equal distance from target. With a standard 3xGyro 2x TE setup with 800mm AC and Faction EMP L falloff for the Vargur is 51 and 34 for the Maelstrom. DPS at 40km for the Vargur is around 550 while the Maelstrom is right at 300 DPS. The Vargur does the same 300 dps at 60km. This is before Bastion. Tracking on a moving target at any transversal is going to be higher on the Vargur as well. The dps is really only similar before 15km (50dps advantage for the Vargur at 10km). By 20km the Vargur is maintaining 100 dps advantage. This is before drones. Drone dps is going to be situational.

If you factor in 5x Hobgoblin on the Vargur and 4x Garde II on the Maelstrom, the Maelstrom is more dps (without factoring tracking) than the Vargur until 25km where they do the same dps, then the Vargur has pretty decent dps out to 60km where the difference is 400dps to the Vargur and 100 for the Maelstrom. It is pretty clear that both have uses and strengths and weaknesses.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6229 - 2013-10-18 19:23:47 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:


Again, no EFT atm, quick battle clinic search shows a vindi with 1875 b4 overheating using 3 stabs


That would be a shield fit vindi. They can be monsters but struggle in missions due to range. The new kronos has the range to play with. These ships are ment to be dishing out t1 BS firepower but with better damage application. Giving the kronos vindicator firepower with better damage application and better range is not a good thing to be doing.
michaelthered
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6230 - 2013-10-18 19:24:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
michaelthered wrote:
Not touching the marauders DPS makes this rebalance useless. Marauders should be on par with the pirate ships DPS wise without any sort of siege mode. With the bastion mode DPS should logically increase.. At the very least give boats like the Vargur an extra low slot and maybe another one goes active when bastion mode is enabled. And nerfing the resists even outside of bastion mode is terrible.


ps can we have a fleet issue maelstrom?


They are on par with t1 battleships. They dont need more firepower to be viable.



But that's the point of going t2, more DPS etc, etc
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6231 - 2013-10-18 19:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
TheFace Asano wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:

= Paladin vs Abaddon =
Raw turret dps is equal.
Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.

= Vargur vs Maelstrom =
Raw turret dps is equal.
Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50

In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.

How to implement:
My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauders very different from most pirates. My suggestion for band/bay:
Paladin 100/ 150
Golem 100/150
Kronos 125/200
Vargur 125/ 175

Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better


This is paper dps, though. With the Vargur / Maelstrom example, the Vargur has a falloff bonus that will increase it's applied dps when the Vargur and Maelstrom are on equal distance from target. With a standard 3xGyro 2x TE setup with 800mm AC and Faction EMP L falloff for the Vargur is 51 and 34 for the Maelstrom. DPS at 40km for the Vargur is around 550 while the Maelstrom is right at 300 DPS. The Vargur does the same 300 dps at 60km. This is before Bastion. Tracking on a moving target at any transversal is going to be higher on the Vargur as well. The dps is really only similar before 15km (50dps advantage for the Vargur at 10km). By 20km the Vargur is maintaining 100 dps advantage. This is before drones. Drone dps is going to be situational.

If you factor in 5x Hobgoblin on the Vargur and 4x Garde II on the Maelstrom, the Maelstrom is more dps (without factoring tracking) than the Vargur until 25km where they do the same dps, then the Vargur has pretty decent dps out to 60km where the difference is 400dps to the Vargur and 100 for the Maelstrom. It is pretty clear that both have uses and strengths and weaknesses.

You are correct in what you are saying and I do not disagree. I argue that most other combat ships from t1 to t2 get application bonuses as well as raw dmg increases
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6232 - 2013-10-18 19:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Joe Risalo wrote:
What you're not factoring here is that killing targets 100km away is completing faster.
With an arty fit, you will have killed several targets before they get into AC range. This means faster...


Crap. Crap. Mega crap.

I actual flew 10 sites on sisi with arty vargur and ac vargur each. Arty vargur is slower then active flying ab/ac vargur with close range use of bastion. MJD AC Vargur is slower too. Arty vargur only beats MJD AC Vargur.


Afterburner Vargur > Arty MJD Vargur > AC MJD Vargur

My Afterburner Vargur can't effort 2 tank slot fittings. it needs 1 booster and 2 specialized modules. But the attack range of under 20 km makes more dps then the boosted bastion ACs.

So in total i fly my vargur the same way as pre patch but at 3/5th of the speed.
michaelthered
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6233 - 2013-10-18 19:29:40 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
[quote=MeBiatch] when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.



This^^^
michaelthered
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6234 - 2013-10-18 19:32:35 UTC
TheFace Asano wrote:
[quote=Tragedy][quote=baltec1][quote=Dinsdale Pirannha]

The kill showed he had 2x 1600 plates, eanm, and a damage control, which is a good sized buffer tank.



if that buffer tank had no logi support why are you even bringing it up?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6235 - 2013-10-18 19:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
michaelthered wrote:



But that's the point of going t2, more DPS etc, etc


Not everything t2 needs to be getting more raw dps. That said these ships do get better damage at longer ranges over their t1 counterparts.
Shivanthar
#6236 - 2013-10-18 19:39:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Wedgetail wrote:


and when the environment functions identically to other players? what happens then? the categories you've pointed out are conceptual only they don't actually exist for ships in EvE only for the players using them.

They only serve to differentiate one intention behind and action and another, no ship in EvE is forced only to fly in missions, or incursions or in PVP fleets or in wormhole anomalies, to say a ship is designed for a given mechanic exclusively is what's moronic.

- ships may be better or worse than others at executing a certain task, but all ships are equally capable of making the attempt in some manner - it's just a question of the measures a player must take in order to make it possible.

all you're pointing out here is pilots are taking the path of least resistance and saying it must have been by design we can't make use of these anywhere but missions as a poor excuse for an absence of effort, creativity or game mechanics knowledge.



First, change all "you" with "eve wiki".
Next, I've just replied a harsh statement like "no pve" / "no pvp" concept. There is, as wiki says and this can't be ignored. No matter how much ppl deny this, designers always have to think about both concepts, otherwise this thread wouldn't be exist. (Giving pvp ability to a ship that was primarily designed for pve combat.)

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Shivanthar
#6237 - 2013-10-18 19:44:06 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
What you're not factoring here is that killing targets 100km away is completing faster.
With an arty fit, you will have killed several targets before they get into AC range. This means faster...


Crap. Crap. Mega crap.

I actual flew 10 sites on sisi with arty vargur and ac vargur each. Arty vargur is slower then active flying ab/ac vargur with close range use of bastion. MJD AC Vargur is slower too. Arty vargur only beats MJD AC Vargur.


Afterburner Vargur > Arty MJD Vargur > AC MJD Vargur

My Afterburner Vargur can't effort 2 tank slot fittings. it needs 1 booster and 2 specialized modules. But the attack range of under 20 km makes more dps then the boosted bastion ACs.

So in total i fly my vargur the same way as pre patch but at 3/5th of the speed.


This. Practically correct, at least from the Vargur point of view.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6238 - 2013-10-18 19:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
baltec1 wrote:
michaelthered wrote:



But that's the point of going t2, more DPS etc, etc


Not everything t2 needs to be getting more raw dps. That said these ships do get better damage at longer ranges over their t1 counterparts.


Yet most do. Heck the golem 8 effective launchers compared to the raven's 6, and the kronos gets 8 effective turrets over the megathron's 7. Both get better application on top.

The maelstrom and abaddon can actually out dps their race's marauders in certain situations
michaelthered
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6239 - 2013-10-18 19:47:03 UTC
So they've killed the AC vargur then with this rebalance it sounds like. Meh. Then they're gonna nerf the Machariel here soon so 800mm AC's are going to die.
Shivanthar
#6240 - 2013-10-18 19:52:17 UTC
michaelthered wrote:
So they've killed the AC vargur then with this rebalance it sounds like. Meh. Then they're gonna nerf the Machariel here soon so 800mm AC's are going to die.


Interesting, yet this sentence has some point in it.
I would look from the bottom to top: "With this rebalance, they're creating a possibility of an arty Vargur, while not touching (re-balancing) BS sized AC's, so they'll become obsolete eventually"

Creating arty marauders while keeping AC's steady will not be called "re-balance" by AC marauder pilots. At least not with this iteration.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.