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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#6181 - 2013-10-18 09:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Arcosian wrote:
To me it seems like bastion is just going to be another MJD mod that nobody uses.


Except that MJD is used a lot these days, even though it was declared "completely useless" by forum warriors at the time of its introduction.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#6182 - 2013-10-18 09:31:01 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

You are deconsiredign the 15 seconds a marauder takes more or less to correct its direction so you MJD to the correct position. Of course some of that overlaps, but its more complicated aand at end less efficient because the propulsion mod is more versatile. SPecially when the distances are smal like 20 km to a gate.



havent been on testserver myself but from this i conclude you cant rotate (align) while in bastion mode?

...if so that would be sad and should be changed

as someone who HAS tested the changes on sisi I will tell you that it makes no difference since you keep lock on the rats throughout so even as you deactivate bastion, align, jump, land and bastion up you will be applying dps. something youd be doing regardless if you were mwd to the gate or mjd. only difference is that I now have 4more modules dedicated to applying my dps more effectively than a ship with 1/3 more dps.

As someone who has not used mjd before I will say iy was easy, effective and intuitive to use.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#6183 - 2013-10-18 09:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: SOL Ranger
Please entertain this suggestion:

Bastion:
  • Increases shield and armor repair amount by 37.5%
  • Increases all shields, armor and hull resistances by 30%
  • Increases shield and armor HP by 50%
  • Increases capacitor regeneration by 20%
  • Increases capacitor amount by 20%
  • Increases sensor strength by 50%. No E-war immunity.
  • Suffers a penalty on all remote assistance by 50%.

    • -The extremely effective active tanking was instead moved to a more reliable and durable tanking model.
    -The bastion now functions as a panic button, raising both capacitor and buffer at the moment of activation.
    -E-war immunity was removed to allow a less absolute solution, although still quite resilient.
    -The RA lockout was removed, instead an effectiveness reduction was introduced to allow the support of advanced fleet actions and player interaction in a more complex manner. I did not remove the penalty fully because I do not believe CCP is prepared to accept to go that far.
    -The range bonuses were moved to the hulls as to not cause an artificial need to enter bastion to get the extra range and thus create an excessive immobility for Marauders; Bastion should remain a situational defensive module and not drag down the ships mobility because of being superior for all roles applicable at the same time.


    Marauder

    As marauders crave flexibility I added this gem of a feature, I proposed this previously, I'm really fond of it.

    A marauder has the option of fitting extra offline module alternatives and put them online in space, they can fit 8H/ 8M/ 8L total slots in the hangar of which some will be offline; Only the use of a predefined number of modules at the same time in space is allowed, Vargur has 7H /6M /5L, thus its secondary offline modules possible to fit/online would be 1H /2M / 3L.

    The ship:
    -Noteworthy is the heat damage bonus, I find this is warranted on Marauders to follow their high quality mark and the longevity of them; It is an excellent PvP bonus and a decent PvE panic feature as well, all round useful and fits Marauders very nicely.
    -I kept the low speed of the Vargur because I got the distinct feeling CCP won't raise it further, so the design relies on the original feature of the MJD.
    -I raised the drone bay a bit to allow more flights and even one or two flights of medium drones, I see little issue with larger drone bays on Marauder, especially given their role.
    -There are two launcher slots, those are to follow the general design of Minmatar ships, especially the Tempest, the option should be there; It provides very little raw dps so that is not a problem as such, it merely allows options.
    -The range bonuses do not suffer stacking penalties, if a problem exists with short range weaponry reaching too far then rebalance Barrage, artillery uses falloff just the same and should not be penalized because of this.

    VARGUR

    Role bonus:
    100% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage.
    70% Reduction in Jump Drive reactivation delay.
    150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams
    50% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.(new)
    25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret optimal range.(moved from bastion)
    25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff.(moved from bastion)

    Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
    5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire per level.
    10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level.

    Marauder Skill Bonus:
    7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level.
    7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level.

    Slot layout: 7H(8), 6M(8), 5L(8); 4 turrets, 2 launchers
    Fittings: 12900 PWG, 625 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8500 / 8200 / 8200
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110m/s / ? / 96520000/ ~16.0s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 200
    Sensor strength: 28 Ladar

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Bastion Arzi
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #6184 - 2013-10-18 09:40:05 UTC
    Shivanthar wrote:
    While re-balancing, devs might skip the bigger picture, as many games felt into this error many times in the past. The more numbers they play with, the more the whole picture fades away. I thought addition of the mass to hulls was a mistake (in reverse order) at first, but when I realize that they really added those to "balance" numbers, this made me sure of that they're missing the whole picture again.

    Consider this game's faction philosopies and their common construction practices as deities.

    The more science you try to put into the mechanics, the less scientists left with belief to these deities, abandoning them, leaving whole idea to perish in the way of numbers of *balancing mechanics*.

    This is why this thread is 300+ pages long.
    To exaragate this and add some trolling, devs might end up putting laser bonus on the Vargur, in order to balance (*caugh* normalize *caugh*) faction differences some time in the future :P

    I'm trolling a lot now, but I've seen this happening in different games, not one time, not twice, ... I hope people get what I mean.

    Edit: I hope this trolling will end up with one dev reading into these lines and get some sort of early sign of warning. You guys running into wrong direction, with, unfortunately, right toolbox in your hands.

    This bastion mod should be doubled, with another one giving more mobility bonuses. If not, since ccp philosopy is to create two different sides of same thing, you should boost mobility of normal Vargur, as much as you boost tanking on bastion mode. MJD is a way to go, but it will prevent some people from enjoying this game. A LOT.


    Why don't u just get a Mach if u want mobility? Oh wait in this thread people want more mobility yet elsewhere people want the Mach nerfed. What the hell are ccp supposed to do with such mixed messages from the community?
    Anize Oramara
    WarpTooZero
    #6185 - 2013-10-18 09:42:25 UTC
    SOL Ranger wrote:
    Please entertain this suggestion:

    Bastion:
  • Increases shield and armor repair amount by 37.5%
  • Increases all shields, armor and hull resistances by 30%
  • Increases shield and armor HP by 50%
  • Increases capacitor regeneration by 20%
  • Increases capacitor amount by 20%
  • Increases sensor strength by 50%. No E-war immunity.
  • Suffers a penalty on all remote assistance by 50%.

    • -The extremely effective active tanking was instead moved to a more reliable and durable tanking model.
    -The bastion now functions as a panic button, raising both capacitor and buffer at the moment of activation.
    -E-war immunity was removed to allow a less absolute solution, although still quite resilient.
    -The RA lockout was removed, instead an effectiveness reduction was introduced to allow the support of advanced fleet actions and player interaction in a more complex manner. I did not remove the penalty fully because I do not believe CCP is prepared to accept to go that far.
    -The range bonuses were moved to the hulls as to not cause an artificial need to enter bastion to get the extra range and thus create an excessive immobility for Marauders; Bastion should remain a situational defensive module and not drag down the ships mobility because of being superior for all roles applicable at the same time.


    Marauder

    As marauders crave flexibility I added this gem of a feature, I proposed this previously, I'm really fond of it.

    A marauder has the option of fitting extra offline module alternatives and put them online in space, they can fit 8H/ 8M/ 8L total slots in the hangar of which some will be offline; Only the use of a predefined number of modules at the same time in space is allowed, Vargur has 7H /6M /5L, thus its secondary offline modules possible to fit/online would be 1H /2M / 3L.

    The ship:
    -Noteworthy is the heat damage bonus, I find this is warranted on Marauders to follow their high quality mark and the longevity of them; It is an excellent PvP bonus and a decent PvE panic feature as well, all round useful and fits Marauders very nicely.
    -I kept the low speed of the Vargur because I got the distinct feeling CCP won't raise it further, so the design relies on the original feature of the MJD.
    -I raised the drone bay a bit to allow more flights and even one or two flights of medium drones, I see little issue with larger drone bays on Marauder, especially given their role.
    -There are two launcher slots, those are to follow the general design of Minmatar ships, especially the Tempest, the option should be there; It provides very little raw dps so that is not a problem as such, it merely allows options.
    -The range bonuses do not suffer stacking penalties, if a problem exists with short range weaponry reaching too far then rebalance Barrage, artillery uses falloff just the same and should not be penalized because of this.

    VARGUR

    Role bonus:
    100% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage.
    70% Reduction in Jump Drive reactivation delay.
    150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams
    50% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.(new)
    25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret optimal range.(moved from bastion)
    25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff.(moved from bastion)

    Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
    5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire per level.
    10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level.

    Marauder Skill Bonus:
    7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level.
    7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level.

    Slot layout: 7H(8), 6M(8), 5L(8); 4 turrets, 2 launchers
    Fittings: 12900 PWG, 625 CPU
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8500 / 8200 / 8200
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110m/s / ? / 96520000/ ~16.0s
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 200
    Sensor strength: 28 Ladar

    this makes the base hulls far far too powerfull. talk about power creep wow.

    A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #6186 - 2013-10-18 10:06:12 UTC
    Anize Oramara wrote:

    ...
    this makes the base hulls far far too powerfull.
    ...


    What does?

    You quoted the whole post and gave a one liner as "constructive feedback", try to be more specific.

    Anize Oramara wrote:

    ...
    talk about power creep wow.


    Knee jerk comments don't do anything to further the discussion, wow indeed. I'm tired of thought ending and highly dismissive comments like yours, either provide constructive criticism or refrain from replying, if you can.

    Thank you.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Anize Oramara
    WarpTooZero
    #6187 - 2013-10-18 10:49:04 UTC
    200 dronebay
    a Full fall off bonus not requiring marader 5
    ditto with optimal bonus
    50% heat absorption

    ALL without ANY tradeoffs the very defonition of powercreep...

    and the bastion bonuses...

    do you have any idea what kind of insane ehp you can get with non stacking penalised omni 30% resists AND 50% armor AND shield hp?

    the fact that I had to spell it out to you... just how disconnected are you with how this game works? how can you not see how absolutely op your proposed changes are?

    A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
    Enduros
    UK Corp
    Goonswarm Federation
    #6188 - 2013-10-18 10:53:53 UTC
    I'm not impressed. The so called projection bonus is stacking penalized with tracking comps right? Everyone is already fitting all the projection they can into them so the bastion is useless in that regard, apart from the golem I guess. Sure, tank is nice, but not needed. Only place I can think of where this might actually be handy is in null combat signatures, but even then it's not needed. A drone boat with MJD does the job just as well and has way better projection at MJD ranges.

    As it stands the whole MJD+bastion concept is a wash. A drone boat does the same thing, but can actually apply meaningful dps at 100km. Short range guns on a marauder will not do much at 100km, long range guns do less damage then a drone boat. What is the point again?

    The tank has never been an issue. You nerfed cap recharge on all but the paladin? So basically you want people to use injectors? That's fine I didn't want that hullspace for loot anyway I rather carry around cap charges. Also has anyone mentioned that all the extra tank is useless because of this thing called neuts? I can't possibly think of a use for these things that other ships don't do as good or better. There maybe a couple of missions that will be easier with them, but that's it.

    You can't use them in anoms with bastion, especially with the new warp speed changes. I mean 60 sec cycle lol... a carrier has more GTFO then that. Also a carrier will do more dps with better projection. Who is gonna use this thing in pvp? You siege it you lose it.

    The Varg seems to be getting the short end of the stick just like it did when they first came out. Everyone is already running with 3 falloff mods so the extra 5% from when you use bastion that has stacking penalties isn't something I would call a bonus. So great I can fit arti now, problem is arti suck balls for PvE and a mach will have more alpha anyway.

    So 2 things:
    Reduce bastion cycle time to 30sec
    Remove stacking penalty from the projection bonus
    Brib Vogt
    Doomheim
    #6189 - 2013-10-18 11:07:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
    Anize Oramara wrote:
    Kane Fenris wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:

    You are deconsiredign the 15 seconds a marauder takes more or less to correct its direction so you MJD to the correct position. Of course some of that overlaps, but its more complicated aand at end less efficient because the propulsion mod is more versatile. SPecially when the distances are smal like 20 km to a gate.



    havent been on testserver myself but from this i conclude you cant rotate (align) while in bastion mode?

    ...if so that would be sad and should be changed

    as someone who HAS tested the changes on sisi I will tell you that it makes no difference since you keep lock on the rats throughout so even as you deactivate bastion, align, jump, land and bastion up you will be applying dps. something youd be doing regardless if you were mwd to the gate or mjd. only difference is that I now have 4more modules dedicated to applying my dps more effectively than a ship with 1/3 more dps.

    As someone who has not used mjd before I will say iy was easy, effective and intuitive to use.



    I have to say it again. Vargur was always good in applying damage. I t only sucked on sensor strength and scan resolution. Tank was awesome. If you fly into a bunch of ships with 600m/s (booster) or 500 without, you can take full agro in close range and kill em all.

    Vargur was already an awesome tanker, something what a macha never could do. For me with bastion you take this away. I do not need more tank, i need more damage. so i would only activate bastion if i am e-wared to death, but after i flew into the ships.

    And for a Vargur the applied damage in fall-off means nothing if your fall off is 60km or 70 when you are used to kill the rats at 30km. it increases the max damage by around 20 dps.

    You only can apply most damage if you stay inside a 90% DPS range, which for 70km fall off means within 20km (addition of 5km optimal).


    25% more optimum gives you 25% more range of full damage if you hit. 25% more fall off gives you a slight increase of already reduced damage. Thats the crap.

    Whoever thinks that a vargur with 80km fall-off fights at 80 km is a moron. its less then 50% damage. And it brings me nothing if I apply it SO GOOD.
    The Djego
    Hellequin Inc.
    #6190 - 2013-10-18 11:28:17 UTC
    I ask again, since it is consistently ignored, is it to much to ask for to keep the current marauders ingame(or actually fix them) as a separate hull?


    The active tanking focus isn't that useful:

    - In incs it is useless, same as bastion is(marauders spider tank, the hole active tanking idea only comes for people that are not used to fly Incs with marauders), same goes to RR based groups in WH
    - single boxing L4 it is hardly useful(I 2-3 slot tank them already), multi boxing them I take close to zero damage anyway, and sitting around 60s is hilarious bad once you manage to apply 150k+ damage in this time frame

    Web and projection bonuses are far more handy then tank most of the time(axe the active tanking bonus for another projection bonus):
    - both in pvp and pve, the web bonus is actually extreme useful for people that know how to utilize it
    - Rail Kronos with 125/275 and the sentry tracking/optimal bonus would bring the Kronos finaly to competitive dps levels
    - high mwd speed plus optimal bonus and a bigger drone bay makes the Vargur a impressive artillery/sentry platform
    - a lot more speed and a explosion velocity bonus on the golem making it finally useful with torps again
    - optimal or tracking bonus on the pala(the optimal is a bit to strong in my opinion, but suit yourself).

    http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?13247-Marauders

    I think it is not to much to ask to actually give people that fly marauders a bit more serious still a reason to use them.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
    Anize Oramara
    WarpTooZero
    #6191 - 2013-10-18 11:28:27 UTC
    you seem to be grossly missing the point. no group of ships will ever be farther away than 50km from you. thats the beauty of the mjd. many times you can instantly jump to 20km or less from them with the mjd instead of taking 3min to burn towards them. the TCs in the mids will usually be tracking scripted, not range. this means I will be getting penetrating hits 1/2 to 1/3 of the time greatly increasing my dps. many missions start with the rats 20-30km away.

    I know this because that is what I experienced on the test server. that beats theory crafting any day.

    A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
    Anize Oramara
    WarpTooZero
    #6192 - 2013-10-18 11:31:53 UTC
    The Djego wrote:
    I ask again, since it is consistently ignored, is it to much to ask for to keep the current marauders ingame(or actually fix them) as a separate hull?


    The active tanking focus isn't that useful:

    - In incs it is useless, same as bastion is(marauders spider tank, the hole active tanking idea only comes for people that are not used to fly Incs with marauders), same goes to RR based groups in WH
    - single boxing L4 it is hardly useful(I 2-3 slot tank them already), multi boxing them I take close to zero damage anyway, and sitting around 60s is hilarious bad once you manage to apply 150k+ damage in this time frame

    Web and projection bonuses are far more handy then tank most of the time(axe the active tanking bonus for another projection bonus):
    - both in pvp and pve, the web bonus is actually extreme useful for people that know how to utilize it
    - Rail Kronos with 125/275 and the sentry tracking/optimal bonus would bring the Kronos finaly to competitive dps levels
    - high mwd speed plus optimal bonus and a bigger drone bay makes the Vargur a impressive artillery/sentry platform
    - a lot more speed and a explosion velocity bonus on the golem making it finally useful with torps again
    - optimal or tracking bonus on the pala(the optimal is a bit to strong in my opinion, but suit yourself).

    http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?13247-Marauders

    I think it is not to much to ask to actually give people that fly marauders a bit more serious still a reason to use them.

    I actually fly marauders and I freaking love the proposed changes on sisi.

    but I prolly dont count because I dont agree with you correct?

    A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
    Drakast
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #6193 - 2013-10-18 11:39:45 UTC

    its been a while since CCP did something that truly p*ssed me off.

    im not sure if you are aware of this but there is 77 paladins flying incursions. 11 of which fly together in the one fleet that i have been following FOR MONTHS patiently waiting for that right time to swoop in and kill them , these guys are really good at what they do, they can clear a site in just over 4 minutes, they wipe the floor with all but the highest end shield fleets and even then the paladin wins 9 time out of 10.

    These ships are the very top of the battleship chain and delicious targets to kill but you and your stupid changes are going to make them useless.

    You post made me laugh when you said you tried them in incursions. you dont have a clue how to run an incursion site the way these guys do it and ill make a prediction for you -

    paladins are going to disappear from incursions the prices will crash and that cutting edge paladin fleet flying about wasting everyone will stop flying and months of my time will be wasted.

    bring back solo pvp my hairy arse.

    Rise, Fozzie, you 2 are good at what you do but this marauder change is a total fail -1

    Ps so this post isnt all negative moaning i have a suggestion for you to consider.

    Add a second class to the marauders leave the paladin as it is and make a new ship with your changes.
    The Djego
    Hellequin Inc.
    #6194 - 2013-10-18 11:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
    The Djego wrote:
    Anize Oramara wrote:

    I think it is not to much to ask to actually give people that fly marauders a bit more serious still a reason to use them.

    I actually fly marauders and I freaking love the proposed changes on sisi.

    but I prolly dont count because I dont agree with you correct?


    It says nowhere to not introduce your over tanked gimp mobile.

    Also is it this hard to understand that there is zero use for the extra tank for most pve? Mjd just slows you down compared to fit the hulls with a mwd and that the changes do nothing good at all in RR environments.

    I tested the changes with any single marauder and beside the paladin(what gets a bit better for L4 by the extra range, but sledgehammer by the loss of the web) they all are considerable worse that her current version.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
    SOL Ranger
    Imperial Armed Forces
    #6195 - 2013-10-18 11:51:48 UTC
    Anize Oramara wrote:
    200 dronebay
    a Full fall off bonus not requiring marader 5
    ditto with optimal bonus
    50% heat absorption

    ALL without ANY tradeoffs the very defonition of powercreep...

    and the bastion bonuses...

    do you have any idea what kind of insane ehp you can get with non stacking penalised omni 30% resists AND 50% armor AND shield hp?

    the fact that I had to spell it out to you... just how disconnected are you with how this game works? how can you not see how absolutely op your proposed changes are?


    Marauder hull:
  • ... the range bonuses aren't full bonuses, a full falloff bonus is 50%, do you complain about destroyers getting an actual full optimal bonus in their role? If the range bonuses on the hulls feel like too much then say so, but stop reaching for ridiculous reasons to complain about things just because you want to have debate class.
  • It loses one high slot for the tradeoff for a 50% heat absorb, I don't think that is unreasonable.
  • 200m3 dronebay isn't OP in any sense, especially when talking about marauders role and how they lost bandwidth, stop exaggerating.

    • Bastion:
  • It loses a major part of its repair bonus, from 100% to 37.5%, converted into 50% shield/armor hp and some capacitor.
  • EHP yes, that is the point of it, to move back the active tank and instead increase the HP to create an actual "BASTION", did you not read the reasoning either? The ship will be a sitting duck when it has this EHP, and it loses the insane active tank, i don't get what you're on about.
  • Loses E-war immunity for a decent sensor strength.
  • It gains a partial RA ability so it won't be completely shunned from group play.

    • Instead of it gaining a full active tank bastion, it gains a buffer/active tank bastion, regardless of which way the pilot decides to go it will be less effective than a fully focused one yet more forgiving for all roles.

    If your goal is to make them completely OP, as you say my suggestion is, the goal would be to focus the bonuses into one area only, that being either 100% into HP/resistance or 100% into boost/resistance, the officially proposed Bastion being the latter.

    To bite back with the same ridiculous lip you gave me:
    The fact that I had to spell it out for you... just how disconnected are you with how this game works? How can you not see how absolutely op the current official bastion proposed changes are in comparison to this one?


    There may be many things that are too powerful or useful, none of the things you mentioned are, at least in the ways you mentioned.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Anize Oramara
    WarpTooZero
    #6196 - 2013-10-18 12:15:45 UTC
    Luckily any proposed changed made by players are usually far too obviously broken. I have no doubt that CCP would never actually consider implementing them so dont misunderstand my reasons for arguing against them. I am merely trying to assertain if you genuinely believe in those changes or if you are trolling.

    not sure yet.

    that story about the palladins though 8/10 would prolly read again. has to be fake though as he just gave away his super sekrit master plan in the one place on this entire forum where they would see it.

    gg

    serioisly though, super stoked about the bastion module. was sad that sisi was down and I couldnt play more last night. still need to run that guristas extravagansa.

    A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
    chaosgrimm
    Synth Tech
    #6197 - 2013-10-18 12:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
    I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:

    = Paladin vs Abaddon =
    Raw turret dps is equal.
    Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.

    = Vargur vs Maelstrom =
    Raw turret dps is equal.
    Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50

    In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.

    How to implement:
    My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauders very different from most pirates. My suggestion for band/bay:
    Paladin 100/ 150
    Golem 100/150
    Kronos 125/200
    Vargur 125/ 175

    Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better
    Joe Risalo
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #6198 - 2013-10-18 13:26:07 UTC
    Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
    Arcosian wrote:
    To me it seems like bastion is just going to be another MJD mod that nobody uses.


    Except that MJD is used a lot these days, even though it was declared "completely useless" by forum warriors at the time of its introduction.



    Yeah, I didn't think I was gonna like MJD on the Marauder, but after playing around with triangulation they work great.

    Oh, and it's not that difficult to triangulate.
    You can do it visually if you're not special ed.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #6199 - 2013-10-18 13:27:44 UTC
    chaosgrimm wrote:
    I want to address marauder dps again. There have been several posts comparing them to pirate ships, this is not going to be one of them as CCP already has plans to rebalance them. However, t1 battleships have already had a rebalance, and I believe the current iteration doesn't do a couple hulls justice in terms of raw dps:

    = Paladin vs Abaddon =
    Raw turret dps is equal.
    Abaddon has 75 bandwidth while the paladin has 25.

    = Vargur vs Maelstrom =
    Raw turret dps is equal.
    Maelstrom has 100 bandwidth while the vargur has 50

    In keeping consistent with other combat ship lines, the paladin and vargur should have better raw dps than similar t1 options.

    How to implement:
    My personal preference is drones as they complement the idea high storage, working around ewar rather than having nice sensor strength, and supports bastion well. It also makes marauders very different from most pirates. My suggestion for band/bay:
    Paladin 100/ 150
    Golem 100/150
    Kronos 125/200
    Vargur 125/ 175

    Alteratively, a small dmg bonus on the hull would be much appreciated. I know CCP wants to keep them turret / launcher focused, but if that focus remains the turrets / launchers should be a bit better


    Because in the case of the kronos we could slap on drone damage mods in all of those spare tank slots we now have and get crazy amounts of damage out of them.
    Xequecal
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #6200 - 2013-10-18 13:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
    Drakast wrote:

    its been a while since CCP did something that truly p*ssed me off.

    im not sure if you are aware of this but there is 77 paladins flying incursions. 11 of which fly together in the one fleet that i have been following FOR MONTHS patiently waiting for that right time to swoop in and kill them , these guys are really good at what they do, they can clear a site in just over 4 minutes, they wipe the floor with all but the highest end shield fleets and even then the paladin wins 9 time out of 10.

    These ships are the very top of the battleship chain and delicious targets to kill but you and your stupid changes are going to make them useless.

    You post made me laugh when you said you tried them in incursions. you dont have a clue how to run an incursion site the way these guys do it and ill make a prediction for you -

    paladins are going to disappear from incursions the prices will crash and that cutting edge paladin fleet flying about wasting everyone will stop flying and months of my time will be wasted.

    bring back solo pvp my hairy arse.

    Rise, Fozzie, you 2 are good at what you do but this marauder change is a total fail -1

    Ps so this post isnt all negative moaning i have a suggestion for you to consider.

    Add a second class to the marauders leave the paladin as it is and make a new ship with your changes.


    These posts are just absolutely hilarious. Paladin lost 50m3 of drone bandwidth and 5m/sec base speed. Paladin gained an optimal range bonus, a high slot, and a huge amount of capacitor. Even without the stupid bastion module fitted at all it's much better.