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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

First post First post First post
Author
Klyith
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#121 - 2013-10-17 16:48:44 UTC
Not going to get involved with the main debate, but just wanted to mention:

If a Siphon has 100k EHP, they're going to be really annoying to kill with anything but POS guns. So the idea that people who "use their space" will be protected is not really effective. Most members of the corp/alliance that has the moon are not able to use the POS guns (both permissions, and the anchoring 5 requirement to train the skill).

So if a guy sees a siphon on one of his alliance towers and wants to get rid of it, they'd have to shoot the thing for almost 2 minutes even with a high-dps BS or T3 BC. Much longer with a ship that someone might fly as a roaming patrol. That's a pretty annoying chore when they can be pooped out by the dozen.


With the things costing 10mil and being incredibly spammable, I'd hope you go with the very low side of that proposed EHP. If the idea is to promote nullsec alliances having better cooperation and "living in their space", it's dumb to make them into bricks that need to be shot with POS guns to clear.
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2013-10-17 16:48:48 UTC
It should be a bit of a red flag when CCP come up with the cheapest griefing tool in EVE for years, and GoonSwarm are the ones saying "hang on that's a bit much".

What exactly do you lot think this is going to do to the Tech 2 market when virtually no one is getting moon materials without interruption? We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?

The Tech 2 materials market has just been handed back to big alliances. We're going to grief the **** out of everyone if this remains unchanged, and make bank while doing so.
Vatek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2013-10-17 16:49:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
Callic Veratar wrote:
With a max 50km deploy range, you'll always be in the range of POS guns when you deploy the syphon. You can't cloak while locked and interceptors have almost no tank. Not sure how AFK cloaking is a problem here.


POS guns take a long time to lock and these have no anchor or online timers. You can launch one and immediately warp off.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2013-10-17 16:50:24 UTC
Quote:
Siphon units are deployed the same as other personal deployables, where you just need to deploy, there is no anchoring or onlining. Once deployed, a siphon unit cannot be scooped up again. The name of the player that deployed the siphon unit is visible in Show Info.


meh
mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#125 - 2013-10-17 16:51:17 UTC
Klyith wrote:
Not going to get involved with the main debate, but just wanted to mention:

If a Siphon has 100k EHP, they're going to be really annoying to kill with anything but POS guns. So the idea that people who "use their space" will be protected is not really effective. Most members of the corp/alliance that has the moon are not able to use the POS guns (both permissions, and the anchoring 5 requirement to train the skill).

So if a guy sees a siphon on one of his alliance towers and wants to get rid of it, they'd have to shoot the thing for almost 2 minutes even with a high-dps BS or T3 BC. Much longer with a ship that someone might fly as a roaming patrol. That's a pretty annoying chore when they can be pooped out by the dozen.


With the things costing 10mil and being incredibly spammable, I'd hope you go with the very low side of that proposed EHP. If the idea is to promote nullsec alliances having better cooperation and "living in their space", it's dumb to make them into bricks that need to be shot with POS guns to clear.

POS guns are ****, so they'll be really annoying to kill with those too.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2013-10-17 16:51:26 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
With a max 50km deploy range, you'll always be in the range of POS guns when you deploy the syphon. You can't cloak while locked and interceptors have almost no tank. Not sure how AFK cloaking is a problem here.


POS guns haven't been rebalanced in years and take ages to lock anything. Covops and interceptors can easily drop these with zero risk.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#127 - 2013-10-17 16:51:29 UTC
Vatek wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
With a max 50km deploy range, you'll always be in the range of POS guns when you deploy the syphon. You can't cloak while locked and interceptors have almost no tank. Not sure how AFK cloaking is a problem here.


POS guns take a long time to lock and these have no anchor or online timers. You can launch one and immedlately warp off.

Some people have never played around a hostile pos I see

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#128 - 2013-10-17 16:51:41 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
benny is wrong
mynnna wrote:
benny is wrong

:X i am an idiot and will report to the execution chambers for biomatter reclaiming
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#129 - 2013-10-17 16:52:04 UTC
Aryth wrote:
I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.


Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance.

As you say, your alliance will be much better placed to deal with the consequences than your competitors, while you also have a playerbase with the numbers and penchant for griefing that will be able to make full use of this module in hostile space. The siphon meshes perfectly with Goons' public philosophy.

But remember, you don't need to check every POS, just use dscan. Hell, probes are probably even easier.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#130 - 2013-10-17 16:52:50 UTC
xttz wrote:
We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?

Well when you put it this way it looks like content for our newbies...

And an incentive to train torp bombers or pos gunning skills...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#131 - 2013-10-17 16:53:07 UTC
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
Make it so you can offline and make it cloak please.


nerf afk cloaking siphons

Katrina Oniseki

Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#132 - 2013-10-17 16:53:17 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:

It's called SCANNING, an activity that regular members often partake in. It involves flying through systems looking for some good signatures to run.

The thing that probably upsets you goons is that you don't really do that kind of stuff in the space where the moons are, which seems to indicate this change is rather a good one.

See, this is the caliber of person that supports this: the kind that thinks that scanning for sigs or anoms is the same kind of scanning that would turn up a siphon.

Scanning for sigs referred to the type of player who flies from system-to-system in used space.

I wonder how you train your scouts, do you send them to gates and tell them to go for a nap?

Nyan

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#133 - 2013-10-17 16:53:58 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.


Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance.

As you say, your alliance will be much better placed to deal with the consequences than your competitors, while you also have a playerbase with the numbers and penchant for griefing that will be able to make full use of this module in hostile space. The siphon meshes perfectly with Goons' public philosophy.

But remember, you don't need to check every POS, just use dscan. Hell, probes are probably even easier.

Remember when cfc people were saying to nerf tech

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2013-10-17 16:54:05 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.


Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance.

As you say, your alliance will be much better placed to deal with the consequences than your competitors, while you also have a playerbase with the numbers and penchant for griefing that will be able to make full use of this module in hostile space. The siphon meshes perfectly with Goons' public philosophy.

But remember, you don't need to check every POS, just use dscan. Hell, probes are probably even easier.


How fortunate that every single system in nullsec is worth living in so someone will be there to check.


Oh wait no most of them are garbage and the mechanics do little to change that. Just one of the many problems holding back the "balkanization" so many people claim to desire.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#135 - 2013-10-17 16:54:23 UTC
Aryth wrote:
I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.

We are the ones that are going to be spamming these across regions. While choking off the supply that we happen to sit on the lions share of. You can think this is about us, but I would point to our track record of doing what is best for EVE. This is far more about the imbalance of the design. The design is flawed on cost vs reward to a huge degree.

I would rather see 50m a siphon but 10 is absurdly low. It is all about hours to earnback. That should be balanced in such a way that the defender and attacker have a reasonable chance of damaging each other. ISK wise.
That's cool spin, Aryth, but if you think you won't be one of the larger impacted, based solely on the amount of POS towers/moons you guys will now have to babysit or lose income, you're mistaken, or, as I said, nice try to spin it. Even if your response is "oh we'll have our mighty numbers check POSes around them," you'll still have to wonder if Joe Regulargoon is going to 1) steal the profits for themselves and report everything is fine or 2) actually say that they destroyed a siphon. My guess is they'll sneak over to the siphon and collect the bounty for themselves.

I think these siphon units are gold for CCP's goal of creating harass/nuisances for POS owners. Imagine this: the incentive will be to build a POS and cultivate its spoils. If you are inattentive to it, then you lose out. Simple as that. It's even better when you consider that wormholers will be able to take hundreds of these throwaway deployables back to their homes with them, pop out wherever the exits take them, deploy their theft units--just to harass--and be on their way. Some random pilot shows up (cloaky, of course, because he's in a new SOE ship) and collects from the siphons.

Wonderful modules, CCP. Just by reading all the nullhurt in this thread indicates that you're on the right direction. It's when all the nullblocs are raving about the changes--highsec POCOS--that you really ought to be concerned.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2013-10-17 16:54:33 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.


Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance.


We don't fail to see ****. We're just rich as hell and want this game to actually get better so it's worth PLEXing our several accounts each month. Bad gameplay is bad gameplay for everyone.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Kwa Zulu
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#137 - 2013-10-17 16:56:08 UTC
I like what I've seen so far!
CCP Paradox
#138 - 2013-10-17 16:56:39 UTC
The Warfish wrote:
Will destroyed Siphons result in a Structure Killmail, a la POS Modules?

If not, it should.


Yes, Kill Reports will be generated including the information on what was dropped/destroyed.

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician

The Warfish
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#139 - 2013-10-17 16:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: The Warfish
Thread moving fast, so will ask (and suggest) again.

These Siphons must provide players will Structure Killmails, like most other deployable Alliance-level-Warfare Structures do.

Simply be providing players with a statistic reward (a kill) for destroying them, it will create the impetus for some players to want to scan them down and pop them for their Alliances/Corporations.

It's also backed by the idea that killmails are for conflict/war. A Siphon is direct economic warfare via theft. Killing it is like killing a POS itself, or killing an SBU.

Make these give killmails.

EDIT: Dev Reply, nice. Thank you for clarification, and good job thinking this through. Kudos.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2013-10-17 16:57:07 UTC
I like the 10 mill ish cost. In a 24 hour cycle with current prices, you could make 30-40 mill (-10 mill siphon cost) if you could get a full load off from R64 raw materials moons. But it almost wouldn't be worth the risk, because if someone found half a days supply and stole it from you, then you'd lose your profit. The processed materials would be where the bank is at.

However, I wonder if this could create the possibility for people who may just want to siphon raw materials at a small cost, so that they can then process them themselves?