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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

First post First post First post
Author
Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2013-10-17 17:12:34 UTC
xttz wrote:
We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?

Also we just finished a moon scan of the damn close to the whole of Eve, and know where all the moons are. Such as the ones in other people's space. Our Blops guys won't even have to fly around to find towers to put them on. They can just go directly to all the r64s.

Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
I can't decide which I love more; the moon siphon itself or all the Goon tears it's generating. :D

Hey CCP, you should introduce more things that will wreck the game and make it easier for GSF put the rest of nullsec over a barrel. Goon tears! Goons tears! They cry when the game gets more boring! twisted twisted twisted
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#162 - 2013-10-17 17:12:35 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright:

this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.

instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:

i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.


hmmm in a MMO that is live 23/7 heaven forbit you might have to make friends with those darn americans and Australians...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#163 - 2013-10-17 17:13:34 UTC
Klyith wrote:
xttz wrote:
We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?

Also we just finished a moon scan of the damn close to the whole of Eve, and know where all the moons are. Such as the ones in other people's space. Our Blops guys won't even have to fly around to find towers to put them on. They can just go directly to all the r64s.

Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
I can't decide which I love more; the moon siphon itself or all the Goon tears it's generating. :D

Hey CCP, you should introduce more things that will wreck the game and make it easier for GSF put the rest of nullsec over a barrel. Goon tears! Goons tears! They cry when the game gets more boring! twisted twisted twisted

So basically, we just need to make trillions off it and get it trouble for massive manipulations, again

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#164 - 2013-10-17 17:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Akrasjel Lanate
I like it, but watching this thread increase possiblity that it will be changet Sad

The cost of 10 mils is ok, increasing it may only decrease the ammount of people that will use them.

But anyway you need to live in the space you have the POS... to decrease the chance of loosing stuff Blink

It can be d-scaned so its not that big problem

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#165 - 2013-10-17 17:15:53 UTC
Aryth wrote:
I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.

Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.

This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs.

Or you could simply make sure that whoever lives in that space is responsible for blowing up siphons whenever detected, which is childs play because they show up on Dscan or to probes. Usually people doing anoms in the system will detect any new siphons and blow the little buggers out of the sky, or give a heads up to the owner of the POS (probably the former, and will keep whatever little bit of material that has been siphoned off as a tip for services rendered).

Either way the person "seeding" the siphons will quickly learn what systems are pointless to seed and quit throwing away money and time trying to do so. When they do find a system that is sparsely inhabited, has a POS worth siphoning from, and has a lax owner he might make some isk for a limited time. Hopefully enough to offset the money lost on detected and blown up siphons, and the time wasted on this rather large daily effort. Again, these siphons will fill up quick and will need to be checked frequently... and any one of them could actually be a trap to decloak and kill you.

So no, not so simple. I know you guys are worried about this a bit, but in this rare case I think self interest is coloring your usual object analysis of new content.

One interesting question... do you have to get close enough to decloak yourself when emptying a siphon?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#166 - 2013-10-17 17:16:08 UTC
Hey guys, you know how pos mechanics suck? Why not make them worse?

SOUNDS GREAT.

When are we getting those improved POS's again? Right after walking in stations, right?
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2013-10-17 17:17:09 UTC
Jeanne Hilanen wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright:

this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.

instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:

i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.


And this is a bad thing because? Why should your towers be able to extract in complete safety in all timezones?


No one is saying towers should extract safely. At least not that I have seen. They are saying that siphons are so cheap that there is no meaning to losing one or spamming them and by extension being profitable to do while an owner sleeps. I can tell you that we would spam 100's or 1000's of these without thinking about it. That is the problem, the ISK/reward isn't balanced. Change that and maybe not allow multiples per tower and all is well.

But hey, if you guys thought SBU spam by us was bad, wait until you see this.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

CCP Legion
#168 - 2013-10-17 17:17:41 UTC
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.

@CCP_Legion | Producer

Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2013-10-17 17:17:49 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.


Sorry for probably unneeded question about potential bug: This reporting will account for the 20% loss? Just asking because "what is syphoned" sounds potentially different to what was mined/made.

Thanks,
Sparks

.

Misch Na Tekla
Unkown Mining Venture
#170 - 2013-10-17 17:19:04 UTC
The siphon units seem totally unbalance.

Siphon units are not automatically attacked by POS guns. Players can take manual control of POS guns to shoot at a siphon unit.

Why should POS guns not attack these items? Isn't that what they are for POS defence. POS defences cost CPU and PG impact on POS requirements. Suddenly super exemption tool with no

If POSes are to monitored 23.5 hours each day to prevent siphoning, then CCP should be equal in applying effort to keep siphoning running (i.e. requires 23.5 hours a day of active work )

If siphons are getting a special exemption on POS defences and notifications then requires effort by aggressor some suggestions:

Option 1)

POS exemption cause siphon to be unstable and decay, requires a certain amount of repairing each hour to keep in up. No risk no reward. (i.e. no repair after 45 minutes it is destroyed or offlines until repaired).

Option 2)

Requires fuel to run and must be fueled every hour. Fuel bay big enough for 1 hour of fuel.

Option 3) If CCP does not want 23.5 hours (mind safety and legal implications from this gameplay requirement)

Anti siphon deployable structures. These structure destroy or interfere with siphons. Must be destroyed before siphon will work. If effort got be put in to destroy siphon, then efforts got to be put in to deploy siphon.

Personal opinion: Siphon are way overpowered. Is CCP creating the next Crimewatch by putting exemptions and poor coding. Unintended consequences.

New feature should have balance in effort form attackers and defenders, not special biasis one way.



Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#171 - 2013-10-17 17:19:25 UTC
Congratulations, CCP. You managed to turn POSes from the ideal source of PvP-driven income (fighting over moons) into something that's somehow more soul-crushignly boring than PvE (log in alt, check overview, log out, repeat every 3 hours 24/7).

10/10, next time consult ALI Virgo in F&I, he has better ideas than this.
CCP Tuxford
C C P
C C P Alliance
#172 - 2013-10-17 17:20:21 UTC
Sparkus Volundar wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.


Sorry for probably unneeded question about potential bug: This reporting will account for the 20% loss? Just asking because "what is syphoned" sounds potentially different to what was mined/made.

Thanks,
Sparks

Yes it will account for the lossed items as well. The idea is that you wouldn't notice that you were being siphoned from the API.

https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates

The Warfish
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#173 - 2013-10-17 17:20:34 UTC
Regarding Game Design:

Passive Income Streams should be the mopst at-risk income stream to active player intervention. The more active you (the owner) are, the less at-risk your income stream should be. Fully active income streams in EVE are actually the most dangerous/risky way to isk, as death from other pilots is always a concern outside High-Sec.

So while I think people appreciate that POS management is hard, POS owners should also realize that it's a mostly passive activity. Unlike Plex'ing, Ratting, Exploration of PvP, POS Operation does not require a direct one-for-one injection of time/effort -> isk.

In my view, POS's and Planetary Interaction should be the most easy isk-streams to interupt, steal from, disturb, disrupt, etc. The counter is that game design should create elements where additional active work on that stream meaningfully reduces the risk posed to it if it was left purely passive.

I believe this design meets that challenge.

If you want full income from your POS, a Corporate/Alliance level asset, you'll need to monitor it yourself more actively, or encourage your Corp/Alliance to actively police the space in which it lives/operates POS's.

Clearly, the most at-risk POS's here will be those of AFK Empires and AFK players who pop in once to fuel, then pop out again. And thats as it should be.

All of these factors should result in smaller empires and more policed Nullsec Space, opening opportunitires for renters/new nullsec holder, and promoting more PvP conflict as Alliances work to defend their lived-in space from raiders.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#174 - 2013-10-17 17:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: handige harrie
I think the price is right, but the size is too small. Not every moon in the game is a R32 or R64.

They should be at least 120M3 so the soon to be uncatchable interceptors can't carry 6 or more in their holds.

if you don't want to check 1000 posses, than don't and find out if they're siphones when you empty them....

I like the goon posing CTA though

Baddest poster ever

June Ting
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#175 - 2013-10-17 17:21:26 UTC
I'd rather see the contents of silos *not* reported in the API than see the API actively lying about the contents of silos. Allowing APIs to return falsified data is really not a great precedent to set, and I'm sure will be fragile in all kinds of ways.

I fight for the freedom of my people.

Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#176 - 2013-10-17 17:22:05 UTC
CCP Legion wrote:
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.


Oh yes, minor rebalancing. Awesome. CCP's new catch phrase.

I mean, pos guns, those need rebalancing. You'll do it right after that, right? It only took a full year of tech problems before you rebalanced that. Or Titan guns. Or Dominion sov. Or Faction Warfare. Or Level 4 missions...

Yes, rebalancing.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#177 - 2013-10-17 17:22:59 UTC
CCP Legion wrote:
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.


this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.

the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#178 - 2013-10-17 17:28:38 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.

the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.


Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2013-10-17 17:29:17 UTC
Jeanne Hilanen wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright:

this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups from our coalition. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.

instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:

i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.


And this is a bad thing because? Why should your towers be able to extract in complete safety in all timezones?


never said that they should be safe to extract

i said that there should be some way or another for the POS owner to defend himself against these things. i for one would propose some kind of timer mechanic, so that a full syphon unit can only be picked up in a timeframe set by the defender.

As the Attacker:
If you don't show up to grab the package (and be willing to fight for it) you loose it.

As the Defender:
If you leave your POS undefended you will loose ypur stuff, if you show up with a bunch of small ships to defend it you might actually get a fight.
Makalu Zarya
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#180 - 2013-10-17 17:30:53 UTC
this entire mechanic is broken beyond belief.

There are people out there who work rather hard to keep their reaction chains going, it's a many hours per day or week job. Yes they make tons of money but it's not free money. I know people with 20 reaction towers in the same system and they are basically a 1-2 man corp.

You've just made their life entirely much much worse. Now they will be faced with 2 options. Either tear down their reaction chains entirely (which will lead to t2 everything going up in price if enough people do it) or watch their massive tower chains day and night making it a nearly full time job.

Given then number of people out there these things will be spammed all over the place making it a near impossible task to keep up with them on any sort of reasonable basis, eventually tower owners will just give up. Ultimately this will result in a lot less production towers which will result in increased prices on everything. Way to make pos people's life ever worse than it already is. You've truly shown you have no idea what you are doing once again CCP, way to go.