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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Orion Moonstar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-10-17 16:31:05 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
I don't really do moon harvesting, but is there not a way to see what gets put in your silos via the API? If so, a simple tool that is showing expected vs. actual output could be a really easy alarm system.

Yes, but CCP just said they're going to lie in their API data to prevent this.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#82 - 2013-10-17 16:31:16 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

1. Mobile structures, including the siphon unit, can be probed down (and d-scanned).

well thats very disappointing. Removes everything guerilla from the guerilla warfare feature if you give players 100% intel.


This unit doesn't fit into the guerilla warfare part of Rubicon. That's more the mobile cynosural inhibitor deployable, and warp acceleration changes.

Roll

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#83 - 2013-10-17 16:31:31 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.

Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.

This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs.


Can't be more blue than it is now :D
And probably renters won't rent moons because people like me will suck their POSs 24/7 and they wont't be able to do anything about it.
Big entities will have to live in the area around POSs if they won't most of the moon goo from now on.
If they won't live around, than no moon goo :DDD

Totally blue with n3 that exists to destroy us, good point there


You won't be blue with them even after this change..lol

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#84 - 2013-10-17 16:31:51 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
What level of "monitoring your pos" are you envisioning players should need to perform? Let's assume that you check it once every eight hours (which is rather reasonable: you check it when you wake up, when you go to bed, and also once during the day).

That's already a fairly irritating level of checking your pos. That means that in those eight hours, 20% of your output will be destroyed irrevocably. And if the player is paying attention (because they can pick when they start the siphoning) they get about 80% of your pos output for eight hours, for 20m isk.

This feature is poorly thought out. It's poorly balanced. It's another one of CCP's hamfisted nerfs of 0.0 that should go hand in hand with buffs of 0.0 that are pushed off until "SOON(TM)". It doesn't reward people who use their space: it merely penalizes them a little bit less. It doesn't actually place the people siphoning at risk physically or economically: the siphons make it hilariously easy to break even.

It's a neat feature. It would work well if it was balanced properly, and if there were buffs for people who DO live in their space. But it's sort of half-assed and fits into the general CCP philosophy of "nerf 0.0 now, buff SOON(TM)" and then get distracted and naturally never get to the buff.

With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?

Oh... right...

Nyan
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2013-10-17 16:32:31 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.

Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.

This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs.


Can't be more blue than it is now :D
And probably renters won't rent moons because people like me will suck their POSs 24/7 and they wont't be able to do anything about it.
Big entities will have to live in the area around POSs if they won't most of the moon goo from now on.
If they won't live around, than no moon goo :DDD


It can get quite a bit more blue than it is now.

Renters don't have a choice on what they rent. They are renters they pay what you tell them to pay. If they aren't getting anything from the moon that isn't our issue we still get paid. They can make it up with more ratting for all we care. Renters by their very definition live in system and will see siphons within minutes/hours typically.

CCP has steadily been encouraging renters more and more with their recent changes. So much so that I was finally able to win the argument internally and get renters. It is very quickly becoming about null vs CCP and when that is truly the mindset in null the response will be everyone squat on their rental kingdoms and lets milk this until the game changes for bottom up income.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2013-10-17 16:32:48 UTC
If you want this to be used for it's intended purpose (rather than just aimless griefing by rich players), do this:

1) Price small siphons around 30mil, with 50k EHP
2) Limit them so that a maximum of 2 can be anchored on a single grid, but full ones don't count toward that limit
3) Add an alert mail to the pos owner once the siphon is 50% full
4) DON'T **** WITH THE API
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#87 - 2013-10-17 16:32:58 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
pmchem wrote:
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.


Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.


oh wait I get to laugh in your face directly, neat!

You're suggesting that the POS owner has muitiple people logged in to fleet and on-grid at POS 23 hours a day in order to defeat one individual who appears at a random time once or twice a day. So, let's say 69-character-hours per day played in order to defeat 3-character-minutes. That is surely good gameplay and sustainable! Let's also mention the fact that the attackers have d-scan and local and can check for traps before even attempting to launch the siphon! Or that if you're using a covert cloaker or Rubicon interceptor you're amazingly difficult to kill anyway unless totally incompetent, even if landing on grid with hostiles! In short you're making a terrible argument and do not know how this game plays out.


Than you won't hold lowsec POSs or those in NPC nullsec. Sry bro for your delicious tears, but you are to stretched.
And tnx for the moon goo
BALEX, lowsec pirate corp.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-10-17 16:33:05 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?


Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.

Thank you for the clairification.

Now I can lean back and enjoy POS owner tears as they now have to do more than stop by once a week to spend 3 minutes interacting with their ISK printing press. Cool
Dagda Morr
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#89 - 2013-10-17 16:33:34 UTC
So just to confirm,

What is considered reasonable is that a POS manager or alliance needs to check every single POS mining or running reactions on the hour for a pair of 10m isk structures or risk having nothing to show?
The risk balance for this by the person dropping the siphons is they need 40m3 cargo space?

If we assume that living in nullsec requires you to patrol your space, what kind of game content is an hourly patrol round at the least tens of moons in multiple systems in the hope of catching a cloaker? Is this what CCP have in mind for life in nullsec? Not fighting for territory, roaming for fun, creating stories or enjoying PVE content but and endless travel along a circular route on an hourly basis to check each and every POS?
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#90 - 2013-10-17 16:33:40 UTC
Funny how certain entities are upset they will have to watch their POS, where they will actually have to worry about their profits now. I for one think it's a pleasant idea. Will be fun to deploy them just to mess with people. Cloaky ships, small m3... nice. Now it's the small corps chance to grief the larger entities in game. Lol
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2013-10-17 16:33:41 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:

i don't want to argue about the feature because i don't know pos well, but please remember that if the pos owner sees the siphon before the robber logs in, they can take their goo back again from the siphon, so the theft isn't irrevocable

other than that i don't have experience enough to comment vOv

The waste is irrevocable. With two siphons, you lose 20% of your total output every hour permanently. Only the remaining 80% is up for grabs.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-10-17 16:33:48 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Quote:
What level of "monitoring your pos" are you envisioning players should need to perform? Let's assume that you check it once every eight hours (which is rather reasonable: you check it when you wake up, when you go to bed, and also once during the day).

That's already a fairly irritating level of checking your pos. That means that in those eight hours, 20% of your output will be destroyed irrevocably. And if the player is paying attention (because they can pick when they start the siphoning) they get about 80% of your pos output for eight hours, for 20m isk.

This feature is poorly thought out. It's poorly balanced. It's another one of CCP's hamfisted nerfs of 0.0 that should go hand in hand with buffs of 0.0 that are pushed off until "SOON(TM)". It doesn't reward people who use their space: it merely penalizes them a little bit less. It doesn't actually place the people siphoning at risk physically or economically: the siphons make it hilariously easy to break even.

It's a neat feature. It would work well if it was balanced properly, and if there were buffs for people who DO live in their space. But it's sort of half-assed and fits into the general CCP philosophy of "nerf 0.0 now, buff SOON(TM)" and then get distracted and naturally never get to the buff.

i don't want to argue about the feature because i don't know pos well, but please remember that if the pos owner sees the siphon before the robber logs in, they can take their goo back again from the siphon, so the theft isn't irrevocable

other than that i don't have experience enough to comment vOv


Except even in that case there is material destroyed. You lose twelve percent of your mined output, PERIOD, no matter what. So if someone drops one of these before I leave for work, I get punished for having a job. If they do it before I go to sleep, I get punished for sleeping. Or hell, if they live in AUTZ and I'm in USTZ I get punished just because they're in a different timezone. The theft isn't irrecoverable, but the destruction is.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#93 - 2013-10-17 16:34:35 UTC
xttz wrote:
If you want this to be used for it's intended purpose (rather than just aimless griefing by rich players), do this:

1) Price small siphons around 30mil, with 50k EHP
2) Limit them so that a maximum of 2 can be anchored on a single grid, but full ones don't count toward that limit
3) Add an alert mail to the pos owner once the siphon is 50% full
4) DON'T **** WITH THE API

You sound angry, do you have many POS?

Nyan
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#94 - 2013-10-17 16:35:23 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:

With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?

Oh... right...

Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2013-10-17 16:36:06 UTC
xttz wrote:
If you want this to be used for it's intended purpose (rather than just aimless griefing by rich players), do this:

1) Price small siphons around 30mil, with 50k EHP
2) Limit them so that a maximum of 2 can be anchored on a single grid, but full ones don't count toward that limit
3) Add an alert mail to the pos owner once the siphon is 50% full
4) DON'T **** WITH THE API


Just lol...

Ohhhh...My first 10 urns are capped. Need more for these Goons tears.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#96 - 2013-10-17 16:36:21 UTC
i have an idea. why don't you make them appear in local and say "planet X moon Y stole Z units of foo" everytime they are active. Depots could do random bzzzzt noises every time they repair someone or you access the cargo.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Orion Moonstar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-10-17 16:36:29 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?


Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.


So, can I pay PLEX somewhere to disable API and mail notifications when a POS is anchored in someone's space? Can we get the API to lie about corp history, wallet transactions, what players on an account, etc?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2013-10-17 16:37:37 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:

Thank you for the clairification.

Now I can lean back and enjoy POS owner tears as they now have to do more than stop by once a week to spend 3 minutes interacting with their ISK printing press. Cool

The issue here is that there are only two real forms of alliance income: moons, and renters. Renters have lead to a terribly boring 0.0 where every few months we relentlessly sodomize N3, who then retreats back to their bad space that's all rented out. All this does is make renters even more necessary, which makes it even more necessary to own all the bad regions to rent them out instead of those serving as alliance incubators.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Jeanne Hilanen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-10-17 16:38:14 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
What level of "monitoring your pos" are you envisioning players should need to perform? Let's assume that you check it once every eight hours (which is rather reasonable: you check it when you wake up, when you go to bed, and also once during the day).

That's already a fairly irritating level of checking your pos. That means that in those eight hours, 20% of your output will be destroyed irrevocably. And if the player is paying attention (because they can pick when they start the siphoning) they get about 80% of your pos output for eight hours, for 20m isk.

This feature is poorly thought out. It's poorly balanced. It's another one of CCP's hamfisted nerfs of 0.0 that should go hand in hand with buffs of 0.0 that are pushed off until "SOON(TM)". It doesn't reward people who use their space: it merely penalizes them a little bit less. It doesn't actually place the people siphoning at risk physically or economically: the siphons make it hilariously easy to break even.

It's a neat feature. It would work well if it was balanced properly, and if there were buffs for people who DO live in their space. But it's sort of half-assed and fits into the general CCP philosophy of "nerf 0.0 now, buff SOON(TM)" and then get distracted and naturally never get to the buff.


Oh noes, someone might occasionally siphon some of your precious moon goo, how will you ever recoverRoll.


Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-10-17 16:39:04 UTC
Aryth wrote:

CCP has steadily been encouraging renters more and more with their recent changes. So much so that I was finally able to win the argument internally and get renters. It is very quickly becoming about null vs CCP and when that is truly the mindset in null the response will be everyone squat on their rental kingdoms and lets milk this until the game changes for bottom up income.


A part of me hopes that the CCP guys reading this pick up on the hint that we're going to abuse this feature and/or respond to incentives like ordinary human beings, but the realist in me knows better. Nullsec blows. The only reason I still live there is to defend a flag in space. The money is better elsewhere. More fun can be had elsewhere (in other games entirely, more and more often). What about siphons changes any of this for the better?

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.