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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

First post First post First post
Author
FightingMoose
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#41 - 2013-10-17 16:16:04 UTC
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
I don't quite agree with the "anyone can access" part.

It could be a corp wide access at most but if you want to access it and you aren't the owner you should at least be forced to blow it up. Then, you loot the container and you are done. Unless that it's too easy. Force people to bring their guns if they want to steal the thief.


Considering how easy it is to siphon a significant amount of a moon's production, I think it's only fair that if the owner is paying attention they can get those things back.

Proud owner of an Ibis.

Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#42 - 2013-10-17 16:16:57 UTC
Querns wrote:
May I have some clarification on this point? Does this mean that the AssetList call will LIE about the contents of silos to mask the presence of a siphon?

It's called reading...

Likely they have a counter that keeps track of how much has been siphoned which is added to the number reported by the API, and this counter gets reset on either an interaction event or timer event.

I'd guess an interaction event, however it would be interesting to know what kind...

Nyan

Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2013-10-17 16:17:31 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.


Having the asset API lie about the contents of silos is the wrong choice in 100% of cases. If you can't build a feature while returning accurate API data, then you need to design a better feature. I cannot believe anyone though that returning INACCURATE API DATA was ever an acceptable choice. Holy ******* ****.

Two step wrote:
I was talking about that you don't make it send notifications, but any large corp can have enough assets API keys to be able to detect siphoning within an hour.

Does the siphon show up in the lauching pilot's API as well?


The assets API doesn't work this way. It has a 6-hour cache timer which is shared across all corporation keys -- you can't make multiple corporate keys and have the assets API refresh more often.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#44 - 2013-10-17 16:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Vatek wrote:
Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.

Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.


Exactly and it is perfect.
Also, CCP make sure that the API doesn't tell when a siphon is sucking resources from the POS.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

Zifrian
The Pannion Domin
Ghostbirds
#45 - 2013-10-17 16:18:06 UTC
Wow, really great idea. When I first read this though, I was hoping that this would siphon off pos fuel or stront...that, IMO would be fantastic.

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Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-10-17 16:18:11 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?


No, it appears from his cryptically worded statement that CCP will actually be FAKING the API data to make it appear all is normal. You could read his post both ways but our consensus is he means CCP is intending to supply fake data through the API.

I really would like an uncryptically worded answer for my question from CCP.

This entire feature hinges on it.
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-10-17 16:18:24 UTC
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Zeimanov Kalzumaan
Haruspex Industries
Wrong Alliance
#48 - 2013-10-17 16:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeimanov Kalzumaan
It does seem a bit excessive - towers are just going to be covered in these as a troll. I like the idea you have to live in your space to actually be able to stop these resources getting siphoned away, but withthese numbers all it means is every tower is going to have ot be checked on an hourly basis. Cloaked blockade runners can afford to drop these speculatively and come back one hour later - with no real risk. If they have been blown up just drop some more and go cloak again - it is not going to create content, just be more pointless work for POS managers.

Out of interest, the dev blog seems to contradict itself:

A siphon unit can only steal from the end of a chain

vs

It will prioritize raw material over processed material if both are available

in a typical reaction chain there will often be both available, for example, Silo+Silo+reactor+*silo withthe first 2 having raw materials and the last having processed. In this instance what is stolen?

If there is a reaction and a miner to silo what would be stolen - the reaction output or the minng output or both?

Does this also mean materials from complex reactors cannot be stolen?
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
Toilet Paper.
#49 - 2013-10-17 16:20:30 UTC
Vatek wrote:
Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.

Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.


Alliance - even small group of players - can actually do the same with SBUs. Size doesn't really matter as much as the time it take to all put in place, for the little benefit it will give.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#50 - 2013-10-17 16:21:02 UTC
pmchem wrote:
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.


Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2013-10-17 16:21:02 UTC
I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.

Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.

This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-10-17 16:21:27 UTC
p.s. if your reply is to just "make a fleet and camp for when the covert cloaker or interceptor deploy a siphon" I'm gonna laugh in your face

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Orion Moonstar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-10-17 16:22:03 UTC
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
Vatek wrote:
Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.

Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.


Alliance - even small group of players - can actually do the same with SBUs. Size doesn't really matter as much as the time it take to all put in place, for the little benefit it will give.


What a ridiculous comparison. SBUs don't generate income.
CCP Tuxford
C C P
C C P Alliance
#54 - 2013-10-17 16:22:09 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?


Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.

https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2013-10-17 16:22:10 UTC
Zeimanov Kalzumaan wrote:


in a typical reaction chain there will often be both available, for example, Silo+Silo+reactor+*silo withthe first 2 having raw materials and the last having processed. In this instance what is stolen?

If there is a reaction and a miner to silo what would be stolen - the reaction output or the minng output or both?

Does this also mean materials from complex reactors cannot be stolen?


In this case the output from the reactor is the end of the chain, the raw materials can't be stolen.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-10-17 16:22:42 UTC
pmchem wrote:
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.

Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition?
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#57 - 2013-10-17 16:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Aryth wrote:
I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.

Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.

This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs.


Can't be more blue than it is now :D
And probably renters won't rent moons because people like me will suck their POSs 24/7 and they wont't be able to do anything about it.
Big entities will have to live in the area around POSs if they want most of the moon goo from now on.
If they won't live around, than no moon goo :DDD

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

Zifrian
The Pannion Domin
Ghostbirds
#58 - 2013-10-17 16:23:40 UTC
pmchem wrote:
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.

Good point. Afk playing is getting to be really lame. This might make it worse :(

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#59 - 2013-10-17 16:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
20m3 does seem tiny compared to how big the actual unit will be when deployed... how can you make something shrink that much into a cargo-bay ... surely it should be more cargo-ship sized like 1200m3 if it is going too be able to store that much surely it should have to be that size to begin with .. especially with cov-op frigs or inties they could easily exploit these things going from POS to POS without be catch-able it seems a little unbalanced to me.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2013-10-17 16:24:41 UTC
What level of "monitoring your pos" are you envisioning players should need to perform? Let's assume that you check it once every eight hours (which is rather reasonable: you check it when you wake up, when you go to bed, and also once during the day).

That's already a fairly irritating level of checking your pos. That means that in those eight hours, 20% of your output will be destroyed irrevocably. And if the player is paying attention (because they can pick when they start the siphoning) they get about 80% of your pos output for eight hours, for 20m isk.

This feature is poorly thought out. It's poorly balanced. It's another one of CCP's hamfisted nerfs of 0.0 that should go hand in hand with buffs of 0.0 that are pushed off until "SOON(TM)". It doesn't reward people who use their space: it merely penalizes them a little bit less. It doesn't actually place the people siphoning at risk physically or economically: the siphons make it hilariously easy to break even.

It's a neat feature. It would work well if it was balanced properly, and if there were buffs for people who DO live in their space. But it's sort of half-assed and fits into the general CCP philosophy of "nerf 0.0 now, buff SOON(TM)" and then get distracted and naturally never get to the buff.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.