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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2013-10-17 16:00:10 UTC
Cool cool.

Now we're getting more targets to shoot, can we get starbase guns reviewed please?

xttz wrote:
I know it's too late for this release, but I'm gonna try and sneak in some ideas for a later Odyssey patch...

Can we get a review of Starbase weapons please? Specifically:

a) Starbase Defense Management is very much a relic of 2007. The UI forces you to control/drop one module at a time (which often takes longer than the enemy needs to run away), and there's no grouping of similar modules. Plus you need at least 15 modules to be effective in a fight which means 3-4 characters with the right roles + skills in the right place at the right time.
Being able to group up weapons then control 1 group per level of the skill would be a step in the right direction.

b) Starbase weapons have never been reviewed in line with ship balancing changes. Most still do levels of damage on par with ship hitpoints in 2005. Ewar mods take the best part of a minute to lock many subcaps, during which time the target has easily moved out of range or off-grid. And the less said about Hybrid or Missile weapons the better...

c) We could really use something that acts as a threat to supercaps. Starbases used to tear up unprepared dreads and carriers, now they just get swept by fighter-bombers in under a minute. Bring back scary neuts or give us a counter to supercarrier tides.

Pretty please :)


We want our armed and operational deathstars back...
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
#22 - 2013-10-17 16:00:30 UTC
While you're adding cool stuff like this. Could you actually fix a regression (since april) finally too?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=221592 'SMAs not dropping ships, large objects no longer dropping as loot'

You may have 'lost' me many millions because of that.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-10-17 16:00:38 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

So basically the siphon is pointless. It will take all of 5 minutes for someone to make some 'alert' type program using the API that will notify players a siphon has been deployed on their POS.

Get an alert? Log in an alt already at the POS who normally would stront the tower if under attack and just man a gun to blow it up. Or just zip over in new travel fit interceptor and do it.

Do you guys ever sit back and think you have far too much free intel being given out to the players or what???

LESS AUTOMATION! MORE PLAYER INTERACTION!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2013-10-17 16:00:40 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Why has alchemy been exempted when you could have solved this by changing the units of output for alchemy? The biggest market for using these is going to be lowsec reaction chains which have huge usage of alchemy. Was it simply because someone could not figure out how to change 1 to 200?


No, the version that is coming out in Rubicon is intended to be a very basic version. Thus, we didn't want it to have too wide application. We'll probably add a couple of new versions in the point release, one of which *could* go for alchemy.

There's an easier fix. Make alchemy produce 200 units instead of one, and require refining in batches of 200 just like ore.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
CCP Paradox
#25 - 2013-10-17 16:00:44 UTC
Phey Onat wrote:
So, if a tower is just pulling raw minerals off an R64, it gets 100/hour. The siphon takes 60/hour and losses 20% of that so the siphon gets 48/hour.

Does that mean that 2 siphons shuts down a simple moon harvestor extractor -> silo setup? Wherein the first siphon gets 48/hour and the second gets 32/hour?


Exactly.

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2013-10-17 16:01:32 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

So basically the siphon is pointless. It will take all of 5 minutes for someone to make some 'alert' type program using the API that will notify players a siphon has been deployed on their POS.

Get an alert? Log in an alt already at the POS who normally would stront the tower if under attack and just man a gun to blow it up. Or just zip over in new travel fit interceptor and do it.

Do you guys ever sit back and think you have far too much free intel being given out to the players or what???

LESS AUTOMATION! MORE PLAYER INTERACTION!

i suggest you do more reading and less outraged posting

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#27 - 2013-10-17 16:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
CCP SoniClover wrote:

1. Mobile structures, including the siphon unit, can be probed down (and d-scanned).

well thats very disappointing. Removes everything guerilla from the guerilla warfare feature if you give players 100% intel.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-10-17 16:05:38 UTC
Yeah, the cost isn't balanced at all. These things will pay for itself (including waste) in the time a regular tower owner sleeps. It is one thing if a tower owner can reasonably find it in the time that it might equate to a loss for the placer greater than the profit gained. It is quite another if you can just mass spray them cross entire portions of EVE and be virtually assured of payback.

The cost should not be balanced at a few hours and probably should be set at at least 12-18 hours. Is that really reasonable to require every tower owner to check their tower 3 times a day? This is exactly why skill queues were implemented and that was far less of a burden.

Balance the cost much higher. 10m that gets returned in just 2-5 hours is silly and not remotely balanced and is only going to mean mass spraying across EVE and end up as spam more than interaction.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
CCP Paradox
#29 - 2013-10-17 16:06:28 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

1. Mobile structures, including the siphon unit, can be probed down (and d-scanned).

well thats very disappointing. Removes everything guerilla from the guerilla warfare feature if you give players 100% intel.


This unit doesn't fit into the guerilla warfare part of Rubicon. That's more the mobile cynosural inhibitor deployable, and warp acceleration changes.

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-10-17 16:08:17 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

1. Mobile structures, including the siphon unit, can be probed down (and d-scanned).

well thats very disappointing. Removes everything guerilla from the guerilla warfare feature if you give players 100% intel.


People will already have to add the tedious chore of checking pos multiple times a day to the already tedious chore of "running them in the first place" and you want it to be worse?

Whatever style of play you like, I'm going to have it nerfed, just for that. X

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-10-17 16:08:49 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.


May I have some clarification on this point? Does this mean that the AssetList call will LIE about the contents of silos to mask the presence of a siphon?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Phey Onat
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2013-10-17 16:09:15 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
I'm concerned about the balance here, specifically the interaction of multiple siphons, them costing nothing, and them being 20m3. Given their cost is a rounding error and even a covops can hold 6 or so, every time you siphon a tower there's going to be two siphons.

There's also no actual cost to doing this. You lose nothing if your siphon is noticed and blown up instantly. They pay for themselves incredibly quickly and even just the waste 'pays' for itself overnight.

I think the cost should be bumped up some so that a successful siphoning is profitable, but unsuccessful siphoning has at least a moderate downside. Chaining siphons also seems unbalanced.



Would like to echo some of this concern. The size of the device should be ideally small. I notice though that at 1200 m3 storage, the siphon would max out on R64 after 25 hours. The cost/benefit of the device appears fine to me on just that but chaining them, with no penalty, adds up rather quickly.
Benjamin Hamburg
Chaos.Theory
#33 - 2013-10-17 16:10:35 UTC
I don't quite agree with the "anyone can access" part.

It could be a corp wide access at most but if you want to access it and you aren't the owner you should at least be forced to blow it up. Then, you loot the container and you are done. Unless that it's too easy. Force people to bring their guns if they want to steal the thief.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-10-17 16:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#35 - 2013-10-17 16:13:31 UTC
Quote:
•Siphon units also have a waste factor (assumed to be lost in transit). This wastes (destroys) a portion of what is stolen. The waste factor for the Small Mobile Siphon Unit is 20%.


any chance we can get a skill for siphon unit efficiancy... what it would do is reduce the waste factor by 3% per level. so that way at level V the waste would only be 5%.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#36 - 2013-10-17 16:14:14 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

To clarify: is the assets API now going to lie and say that I have a full silo when I don't due to siphons? Or are you saying that you're tracking it but it's still going to show as less-than-full?

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#37 - 2013-10-17 16:14:25 UTC
So basically a person deploying a Siphon unit will want to check their siphon once per day.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#38 - 2013-10-17 16:14:28 UTC
That's definitely good stuff :) I'm just dissapointed about not having other sizes and tech 2 variants.

Also, POS guns should not be able to target it even in manual mode... If you want to remove a siphon, you have to dirty your hands yourself !

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#39 - 2013-10-17 16:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.

Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-10-17 16:15:30 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?


No, it appears from his cryptically worded statement that CCP will actually be FAKING the API data to make it appear all is normal. You could read his post both ways but our consensus is he means CCP is intending to supply fake data through the API.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.