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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6121 - 2013-10-17 14:13:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I need someone to try something....

Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?

If so, this is game changing...
This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.

Edit...
I'm asking because no one as actually tested this.
We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap.


No, you cannot cap transfer.
Have you not been on Sisi testing this disaster?


I have been testing, but I don't have a logi to transfer with me.

I will however say, that my Golem is sheer awesomeness
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#6122 - 2013-10-17 14:15:21 UTC
Wait, you're complaining you lasted 7 minutes alone in an NCO as a note to these ships being poor?

I suppose the concept of having a small fleet of marauders scatter and pick off at range when the Tama's move to another ship as their primary is lost on you, huh?


Also T2 LAR on a 1bil hull? Throw some cash at an IN LAR and stop being so cheap.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6123 - 2013-10-17 14:18:25 UTC
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin.
I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's.
With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.

Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.


PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when:
-You have less than 3800GJ of energy left
-You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat.

As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ.


Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#6124 - 2013-10-17 14:23:45 UTC
Did you factor in that the Paladin has had a capacitor reduction?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6125 - 2013-10-17 14:32:37 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Did you factor in that the Paladin has had a capacitor reduction?


Reduced from 8000 base to 7500 base. A small nerf at worst. Easy matter to adjust the fit if needed. I'll re-test it when it hits SiSi.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#6126 - 2013-10-17 14:33:29 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Wait, you're complaining you lasted 7 minutes alone in an NCO as a note to these ships being poor?

I suppose the concept of having a small fleet of marauders scatter and pick off at range when the Tama's move to another ship as their primary is lost on you, huh?


Also T2 LAR on a 1bil hull? Throw some cash at an IN LAR and stop being so cheap.


You seem to think I was the only one in that site. I was not.
There was another Paladin doing just want you suggested , jumping 100 km away and having the rats ping pong between us.
It was a mess.

And clearly you have not been on the test server.
You can't buy faction LAR's, let alone deadspace modules.

So kindly shut up about something you clearly know nothing about.
Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6127 - 2013-10-17 14:38:15 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Wait, you're complaining you lasted 7 minutes alone in an NCO as a note to these ships being poor?

I suppose the concept of having a small fleet of marauders scatter and pick off at range when the Tama's move to another ship as their primary is lost on you, huh?


Also T2 LAR on a 1bil hull? Throw some cash at an IN LAR and stop being so cheap.


You seem to think I was the only one in that site. I was not.
There was another Paladin doing just want you suggested , jumping 100 km away and having the rats ping pong between us.
It was a mess.

And clearly you have not been on the test server.
You can't buy faction LAR's, let alone deadspace modules.

So kindly shut up about something you clearly know nothing about.


Try to keep your Paladins together, 2x webs each and web the frig together. Don't use T2 ammo. Script your TC's. You know, the simple things? I didn't have any problems.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#6128 - 2013-10-17 14:38:35 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin.
I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's.
With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.

Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.


PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when:
-You have less than 3800GJ of energy left
-You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat.

As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ.


Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast.


On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted.
There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective.

Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities?

Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters?
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#6129 - 2013-10-17 14:39:53 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:

Where is the word "tractor" in that "Salvage only ship"? It should salvage fast, not just cover all dungeon with 96km tractor without even moving. Why industrial command ship Orca have 250% tractor range bonus?
Please don't use artificial reasonings to justify strange dev behavior on this matter.



Y ... i guess you are right
Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6130 - 2013-10-17 14:49:39 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin.
I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's.
With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.

Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.


PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when:
-You have less than 3800GJ of energy left
-You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat.

As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ.


Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast.


On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted.
There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective.

Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities?

Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters?


Um. Now I think you're just being silly. Keep your on-grid command ship with your logi, which will be giving their links to your dedicated web hulls and will have plentiful reps since the paladins and kronoses won't need their help.

Here's a clue. DO NOT MJD in a vanguard site. For bigger incursion sites, DO NOT BASTION. Mmkay?
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#6131 - 2013-10-17 15:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin.
I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's.
With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.

Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.


PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when:
-You have less than 3800GJ of energy left
-You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat.

As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ.


Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast.


On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted.
There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective.

Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities?

Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters?


Um. Now I think you're just being silly. Keep your on-grid command ship with your logi, which will be giving their links to your dedicated web hulls and will have plentiful reps since the paladins and kronoses won't need their help.

Here's a clue. DO NOT MJD in a vanguard site. For bigger incursion sites, DO NOT BASTION. Mmkay?


now that's just stupid if you will have dedicated web/r ship(vindi) and logi boats there is no need for marauders ever again if you didn't noticed they are nerfed in terms of total dmg output so if you run webs and logis you will slot NM/machariels to do damaging stuff. Because they do more of it usually extra bonused for it(NM tracking compared to paly cap usage) move faster alight faster and have on top of raw gun dps(mach Vindi compared to varg kronos) they have mored drones too.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Clendestined
Perkone
Caldari State
#6132 - 2013-10-17 15:13:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Clendestined
The Djego wrote:
[quote=CCP Ytterbium]
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?

  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
    • [/list]



    WTB: AoE deployable web module!!! (Hurry up and make it since you're already making an anti-hotdrop module) Or perhaps an ammo type that you can fire at range for the effect (thinking a bomb as being feasible..but that's another can of worms me thinks...)

    K! Thanks!
    Mina Sebiestar
    Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
    #6133 - 2013-10-17 15:20:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
    Also just for the sake of removing "use dual webs" on a normal hull....

    it doesn't work take bhaalgorn for example it have normal webs but ranged to be effective I need every bit of tracking I can possibly fit without compromising my tank and links from scimitars to be able to have normal hits on frigs in sites and even after all that vindi and now dead paly/kronos was better without links even(usually put optimal on blaster boats).

    Web was that good,that is not to say I care I fly varg personally but I know where certain ppl coming from complaining that webs are gone.

    You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

    Because >>I is too hard
    Daishan Auergni
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #6134 - 2013-10-17 15:24:42 UTC
    Mina Sebiestar wrote:
    Daishan Auergni wrote:
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
    Daishan Auergni wrote:
    Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:


    PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when:
    -You have less than 3800GJ of energy left
    -You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat.

    As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ.


    Yeah, if he was using NOS against a frig or cruiser, no happiness there. I was using 3x NOS on both a Kronos and a Paladin AGAINST EACH other to keep them equalized, because the Pally is cap stable while the Kronos isn't. And with 2x webs each, frigs died fast.


    On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted.
    There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective.

    Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities?

    Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters?


    Um. Now I think you're just being silly. Keep your on-grid command ship with your logi, which will be giving their links to your dedicated web hulls and will have plentiful reps since the paladins and kronoses won't need their help.

    Here's a clue. DO NOT MJD in a vanguard site. For bigger incursion sites, DO NOT BASTION. Mmkay?


    now that's just stupid if you will have dedicated web/r ship(vindi) and logi boats there is no need for marauders ever again if you didn't noticed they are nerfed in terms of total dmg output so if you run webs and logis you will slot NM/machariels to do damaging stuff. Because they do more of it usually extra bonused for it(nam tracking compared to play cap usage) move faster alight faster and have on top of raw gun dps(mach Vindi compared to varg kronos) they have mored drones too.


    Sure. USE THE BOAT THAT WORKS BEST for your situation. Post Pirate hull balance, that might not be what you hope it will be. The situation is in flux, ships are being adjusted. Adapt. With the 1.1 nerf to the Interdiction Maneuvers warfare link and the slight nerf to warfare links by reducing T3 boosting to worse than command ships, web ranges got the bat. The best non-officer 60% web is the 14KM Fed Navy, which tops at 18KM boosted.

    That means webs are already nerfed for current incursion fleets.

    Back when Bhaals fell out of favor for higher damage Pallies and Vindis they weren't ever tops for shield fleets, but now they might have a place. Same with Lokis.

    With two BS about to lose their 90% webs, webbing will best be done with Vindi / Bhaal / Loki, and hopefully the Vindi will retain its bonus. But who knows?

    18 webs in a vanguard site, unbonused? Waaah. That will kill frigs. It's just a matter of adapting to the new meta. Whinging gets you what? Sore fingers and nothing else.
    Serge SC
    The Valhalla Project
    #6135 - 2013-10-17 15:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Serge SC
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


    ...something about paladins in an NCO for 7 minutes...


    On TQ right now, my crew runs 18 webs, all bonused, all faction, all off-grid boosted.
    There is zero chance with this new setup, that the ships will be as effective.

    Plus, and am quite interested in the fact that Yitterbum refuses to respond, when command ships are forced on-grid, how will they jump with the Marauders, given that Yitterbum has said many many times that is the new method of flying these ships? Will the Marauders be given 100 km reppers? Will the Command ship be given MJD capabilities?

    Or are people who fly Marauders be penalized again, and not fly with boosters?[/quote]
    Not to tell you how to EVE, but you do know that after the 3rd web, the rest are all wasted? 18 webs for Vanguards seems overkill to be very honest with you, and wasted potential. You'd be better of with several TPs added and just a couple of webbers. Granted, I specialized in HQs long ago, and ran those almost exclusively for a long time.

    Vindis are the best to shut down fast moving targets, that's what we shields do nowadays for larger sites. Armor has the advantage of extremely fast lock speed vs the slower shield locking time. Lock fast, web 2 targets down, and let the others shoot at them too. For longer ranges, the Loki is still king, followed by the awesome Bhaalgorn (both of which I tested and flew with TDF for a while).

    How many paladins you had in an NCO tanking for 7 minutes? What was the fleet composition? I'm guessing full penalties, no OGB, small fleet, right?


    EDIT: Sorry, I lost the quote or missquoted you...lol

    Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #6136 - 2013-10-17 15:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
    Wonder if anyone yet tried to get a representative isk/hour ratio for running c4/c5-anoms solo. With that new Kronos atleast, c4 appears to be a tad to very easy, as you can just use all those utilityhighs for fancy stuff, and your cargohold knows no limits (for reg. cap booster 800s). Wonder if the paladin would do a lot better in comparison, or even a pimptank varg :D



    Also, the spool-up-time of that MJD seems to beat the cloaky prot's decloakdelay + locktime.

    Couldn't sufficiently try it cause can't find faction large EM-smarties on SiSi <.<
    Caellach Marellus
    Stormcrows
    #6137 - 2013-10-17 16:02:59 UTC
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
    Caellach Marellus wrote:
    Wait, you're complaining you lasted 7 minutes alone in an NCO as a note to these ships being poor?

    I suppose the concept of having a small fleet of marauders scatter and pick off at range when the Tama's move to another ship as their primary is lost on you, huh?


    Also T2 LAR on a 1bil hull? Throw some cash at an IN LAR and stop being so cheap.


    You seem to think I was the only one in that site. I was not.
    There was another Paladin doing just want you suggested , jumping 100 km away and having the rats ping pong between us.
    It was a mess.

    And clearly you have not been on the test server.
    You can't buy faction LAR's, let alone deadspace modules.

    So kindly shut up about something you clearly know nothing about.


    I am on the test server, and tags are seeded everywhere at a semi reasonable price.

    Simply convert your CONCORD LP to the relevant faction and buy the modules needed.


    So kindly shut up about something you clearly know nothing about.

    When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
    DSpite Culhach
    #6138 - 2013-10-17 16:54:10 UTC
    Question for people that know what they are doing:

    If you got into say, a Golem, and went into an Incursion site, and just bunny hopped via MJD a LOT, and just stayed as far as possible with cruise missiels and popped stuff, even assuming you'd eventually pop big triggers and start running into some nasty DPS before having to skedaddle - oh look I used a new word - will that actually still make you more then running an L4?

    I have another 2 bored people that I might be able to get to fly Marauders, maybe we can squeeze some new fun out of this, we're still too wussy to go in WH's.

    I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
    Serge SC
    The Valhalla Project
    #6139 - 2013-10-17 17:18:58 UTC
    DSpite Culhach wrote:
    Question for people that know what they are doing:

    If you got into say, a Golem, and went into an Incursion site, and just bunny hopped via MJD a LOT, and just stayed as far as possible with cruise missiels and popped stuff, even assuming you'd eventually pop big triggers and start running into some nasty DPS before having to skedaddle - oh look I used a new word - will that actually still make you more then running an L4?

    I have another 2 bored people that I might be able to get to fly Marauders, maybe we can squeeze some new fun out of this, we're still too wussy to go in WH's.


    Well, you can use MJD to move, but as incursion fleets manage nowadays, an MWD is more efficient. However, you can drop bastion and 4 open highs for 2xRR and 2xCap Xfers, making marauders a desireable ship to low-logi fleets, should they be organised.

    Will you do more than lvl 4s? Most likely yes, if you're in a fleet.

    Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
    Mina Sebiestar
    Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
    #6140 - 2013-10-17 17:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
    Check in journal what is minimum pilot count for VG I think 3 ppl will net you 0 isk even if you complete a site

    You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

    Because >>I is too hard