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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#6001 - 2013-10-17 00:23:40 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:
Serge SC wrote:
AC vargur in bastion does get around 50km of effective damage with good projection

If that is an improvement for you, you are fitting your Vargur wrong. Just saying.


I think for me the biggest thing bastion brings to the table is versatility.

I used to have 0-1 mid slots (2 on the easiest missions) that I could fit tracking comps in. Now I have 2-3 and this allows me to adapt to the mission and continuously keep my damage application maximised. I also don't have to fit a DCU so another gyro fit as well.

A mach does the exact same thing by flying to or away from rats. The vargur at least does the same thing by standing still and changing the stats of its guns (Range and tracking) or MJD to ships to far away.

It's different, it's interactive like the Mach is interactive (but in a different way) and it feels so much more fun for me at least. I feel more mobile than I've ever felt.

After testing this I have to say I am absolutely stoked about this change.

The only thing I can say is that although the moving paneling is pretty cool, think maybe you can ask the art guys to ad some nice glowy lighting like on the kronos somehow?

Pretty please?

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
#6002 - 2013-10-17 00:24:03 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:
Serge SC wrote:
AC vargur in bastion does get around 50km of effective damage with good projection

If that is an improvement for you, you are fitting your Vargur wrong. Just saying.


LOL...thank you. But I'll take my arty vargur any day over those filthy short range ACs.

Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#6003 - 2013-10-17 00:25:51 UTC  |  Edited by: SOL Ranger
@CCP


  • Is there any way we could get the range bonuses from Bastion moved to the hulls in the form of a role bonus?

  • If that is not possible, is it possible for you to eliminate the range bonus in Bastion and boost the hulls separately in other ways, such as buffer and sensor strength, so that we do not have to enter bastion to get maximum offensive capabilities from the ships; It is after all intended as a defensive mode is it not.


    • This would allow us to use the MJD mobility the hulls provide freely and make fully mobile warfare in the new proposed Marauders more viable even when being highly reliant on the MJD most of the time.

    Bastion would become an 'oh ****' tool and a strategic choice rather than the ship defining rule it currently is presented as.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Silas Vitalia
    Doomheim
    #6004 - 2013-10-17 00:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Silas Vitalia
    I'd like it much more if Bastion was an all or nothing slider sort of thing, 'FULL POWER TO WEAPONS' or 'FULL POWER TO TANK' that you decide before you turn it on, with either application severely nerfing the other. Two different isotopes maybe for the different applications.

    Then you get into neat tradeoffs where a few marauders activate WTF bbq ability and become immediate threats, rather then them turning it on and nobody shooting them for a few minutes and focusing on their gangmates. They could even have the same visual que so you'd have to really guess which way they went, forcing you to waste time shooting overtank while their friends nail you.

    Sabik now, Sabik forever
    Mioelnir
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #6005 - 2013-10-17 00:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mioelnir
    Anize Oramara wrote:
    I used to have 0-1 mid slots (2 on the easiest missions) that I could fit tracking comps in. Now I have 2-3 and this allows me to adapt to the mission and continuously keep my damage application maximised. I also don't have to fit a DCU so another gyro fit as well.

    Personally, I use 2 TE+2TC+3Gyro for practically everything except Smash the Supplier. Activating bastion gives < 5 percentage points more falloff, if I remember correctly. But that does not necessarily free up any slots, since I can't switch the bastion bonus to tracking like I can with the comps.

    The bastion bonus to optimal range is 5 pct points above a scripted cormack meta 14 tc, yet the falloff bonus is 5 pct points below a scripted t2 tc. And the devs are worried about a pulse/scorch-paladin. Oh my, where does that come from, let's try to spot the problem!

    Serge SC wrote:
    LOL...thank you. But I'll take my arty vargur any day over those filthy short range ACs.
    My remark was in the context of ACs. Nothing wrong with an Arty fit if one prefers it.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #6006 - 2013-10-17 00:44:06 UTC
    It occurs to me that every other T2 ship has increased damage. Case-in-point:

    Navy Hookbill: +20% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 3.6 equivalent)
    Hawk: +10% kinetic damage, +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 4.4 equivalent)

    Caracal: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (5 launchers = 6.67 equivalent)
    Caracal Navy: +5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (6 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Cerberus: +5% rate of fire, +5% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity, +10% flight time (6 launchers = 10 equivalent)

    Drake: +10% kinetic damage (6 launchers = 6.6 equivalent)
    Drake Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Nighthawk: +7.5% kinetic damage, +7.5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (5 launchers = 11 equivalent)

    Raven: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (6 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Raven Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Golem: +5% explosion velocity, +10% missile velocity (4 launchers = 8 equivalent)

    Bastion should really be giving these a damage, rate of fire or heat absorption (overloead) bonus.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Anize Oramara
    WarpTooZero
    #6007 - 2013-10-17 00:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
    Mioelnir wrote:
    Anize Oramara wrote:
    I used to have 0-1 mid slots (2 on the easiest missions) that I could fit tracking comps in. Now I have 2-3 and this allows me to adapt to the mission and continuously keep my damage application maximised. I also don't have to fit a DCU so another gyro fit as well.

    Personally, I use 2 TE+2TC+3Gyro for practically everything except Smash the Supplier. Activating bastion gives < 5 percentage points more falloff, if I remember correctly. But that does not necessarily free up any slots, since I can't switch the bastion bonus to tracking like I can with the comps.

    The bastion bonus to optimal range is 5 pct points above a scripted cormack meta 14 tc, yet the falloff bonus is 5 pct points below a scripted t2 tc. And the devs are worried about a pulse/scorch-paladin. Oh my, where does that come from, let's try to spot the problem!

    Serge SC wrote:
    LOL...thank you. But I'll take my arty vargur any day over those filthy short range ACs.
    My remark was in the context of ACs. Nothing wrong with an Arty fit if one prefers it.


    I think the prob is you are running 2 TEs. I run 1 TE and 4 faction gyros. This means the bastion takes the place of the range bonus of the 2nd TE but without the tracking bonus (the range bonus is also larger because less stacking penalties before taking the TCs into account) while I now have 3 TCs I can script as needed depending on the situation. More versatility/adaptability is better. It pushes it towards having more tracking because I can kinda dictate range with the MJD.


    I have never run guristas extravaganza. How bad is it with range and jamming? I'd like to give the bastion module a proper testing on it but I've never run it before so need to know how bad it is to begin with. I'll prolly be doing this tomorrow night.

    A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
    Octoven
    Stellar Production
    #6008 - 2013-10-17 01:03:33 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    It occurs to me that every other T2 ship has increased damage. Case-in-point:

    Navy Hookbill: +20% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 3.6 equivalent)
    Hawk: +10% kinetic damage, +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 4.4 equivalent)

    Caracal: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (5 launchers = 6.67 equivalent)
    Caracal Navy: +5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (6 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Cerberus: +5% rate of fire, +5% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity, +10% flight time (6 launchers = 10 equivalent)

    Drake: +10% kinetic damage (6 launchers = 6.6 equivalent)
    Drake Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Nighthawk: +7.5% kinetic damage, +7.5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (5 launchers = 11 equivalent)

    Raven: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (6 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Raven Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Golem: +5% explosion velocity, +10% missile velocity (4 launchers = 8 equivalent)

    Bastion should really be giving these a damage, rate of fire or heat absorption (overloead) bonus.


    I disagree, you should have more tank or more DPS shouldnt have both
    Mer88
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #6009 - 2013-10-17 01:08:43 UTC
    For dps increase

    bastion mode is good for
    artillery cannon vargur
    torpedo golem
    paladin
    kronos

    Bastion mode does nothing for
    auto cannon vargur
    cruise golem

    this is just my observation after flying them all in the test server while doing some l4 missions
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #6010 - 2013-10-17 01:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
    Octoven wrote:
    I disagree, you should have more tank or more DPS shouldnt have both

    The T2 variants all have more tank and more DPS. Not that I disagree with your statement, but the actual stats on T2s don't bear that out. The Golem is just a beefier, uglier (colour, not model) Raven Navy Issue. I'm still actively training towards the Golem (more for the Caldari Battleship-V bonuses than anything else though). With or without the missile velocity bonus, RHMLs are going to be totally OP on the RNI - so I'm inclined to just stick with that (and it's paid for).

    If the Golem came in a colour other than "bleecch", I'd be more inclined to acquire it just on aesthetics alone. I think the third iteration is the best out of the three, by no means perfect - but since these were going to see a change anyway...

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #6011 - 2013-10-17 01:36:46 UTC
    Octoven wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    It occurs to me that every other T2 ship has increased damage. Case-in-point:

    Navy Hookbill: +20% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 3.6 equivalent)
    Hawk: +10% kinetic damage, +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (3 launchers = 4.4 equivalent)

    Caracal: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (5 launchers = 6.67 equivalent)
    Caracal Navy: +5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (6 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Cerberus: +5% rate of fire, +5% kinetic damage, +10% missile velocity, +10% flight time (6 launchers = 10 equivalent)

    Drake: +10% kinetic damage (6 launchers = 6.6 equivalent)
    Drake Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Nighthawk: +7.5% kinetic damage, +7.5% rate of fire, +5% explosion radius (5 launchers = 11 equivalent)

    Raven: +5% rate of fire, +10% missile velocity (6 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Raven Navy: +5% explosion radius, +10% missile velocity (8 launchers = 8 equivalent)
    Golem: +5% explosion velocity, +10% missile velocity (4 launchers = 8 equivalent)

    Bastion should really be giving these a damage, rate of fire or heat absorption (overloead) bonus.


    I disagree, you should have more tank or more DPS shouldnt have both



    Its a cobmat ship..without more damage is is worth exaclty as much to the fleet as a t1 ship. SIcne they have LESS firepower than t1 ships, these marauders are useless on most scenarios.

    THey are NOT versatile, on the contrary. THey are the most pigeonholed ships ever.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Drunken Bum
    #6012 - 2013-10-17 01:41:43 UTC
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

    You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec?
    Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that.

    The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it.

    Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it.

    Are you kidding me? Have you actually flown one of these yet and tried anything or have you just whined on the forums? How are you gonna do anything do an ewar immune ship with a keres? Weve tried to see how well a single inty can handle a marauder right now. Orbiting a vargur at various ranges from 40-1k ab and mwd fits. Vargur is killing the taranis usually with a single volley from each gun. Webs ARENT useless. If you were gonna mission in lowsec, you could easily fit a web scram and neuts on your marauder. Easily. While having enough tank for level 5s. How fast is an interceptor gonna orbit a ship while its webbed and scrammed? Not fast enough to avoid being hit.

    You're gonna need a LOT more then two ewar frigates to pin down a marauder now. (P.S. they're immune to damps while bastioned)

    If your gang takes longer then 60 seconds to show up, no marauder kill for them.

    After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
    Freeism Saurfang
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #6013 - 2013-10-17 01:44:54 UTC
    So, When you change Paladin's Amarr Battleship bonus?

    Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
    7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed (instead 5% bonus to capacitor capacity)
    7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)

    5% capacitor bonus is bit old, isn't it?

    it looks like old apocalypse bonus.

    PS. As capacitor bonus changes, base capacitor should increase 25%
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #6014 - 2013-10-17 01:54:53 UTC
    Drunken Bum wrote:
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

    You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec?
    Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that.

    The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it.

    Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it.

    Are you kidding me? Have you actually flown one of these yet and tried anything or have you just whined on the forums? How are you gonna do anything do an ewar immune ship with a keres? Weve tried to see how well a single inty can handle a marauder right now. Orbiting a vargur at various ranges from 40-1k ab and mwd fits. Vargur is killing the taranis usually with a single volley from each gun. Webs ARENT useless. If you were gonna mission in lowsec, you could easily fit a web scram and neuts on your marauder. Easily. While having enough tank for level 5s. How fast is an interceptor gonna orbit a ship while its webbed and scrammed? Not fast enough to avoid being hit.

    You're gonna need a LOT more then two ewar frigates to pin down a marauder now. (P.S. they're immune to damps while bastioned)

    If your gang takes longer then 60 seconds to show up, no marauder kill for them.



    lol .. go try.. i really want to see peopel tryign to use marauders so much in PVP. we gonna get so many nice kills.

    Just a hint.. the number of tornados needed to one shoot a marauder is still same...

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    m3talc0re X
    The Motley Crew of Disorder
    The Gorram Shiney Alliance
    #6015 - 2013-10-17 01:57:21 UTC
    Dear CCP,

    Would you be so kinda as to pleeeease give us a slight buff to tractors on marauders? Like the 125% bonus to range and velocity. Please XD We're long range ships, we need long range tractors :(

    Thanks,
    m3tal
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #6016 - 2013-10-17 02:00:33 UTC
    This thread has officially become a Gong Show.
    I think I'll just wait for Rubicon and be "surprised" with any changes.
    What?

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Drunken Bum
    #6017 - 2013-10-17 02:08:28 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Drunken Bum wrote:
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

    You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec?
    Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that.

    The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it.

    Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it.

    Are you kidding me? Have you actually flown one of these yet and tried anything or have you just whined on the forums? How are you gonna do anything do an ewar immune ship with a keres? Weve tried to see how well a single inty can handle a marauder right now. Orbiting a vargur at various ranges from 40-1k ab and mwd fits. Vargur is killing the taranis usually with a single volley from each gun. Webs ARENT useless. If you were gonna mission in lowsec, you could easily fit a web scram and neuts on your marauder. Easily. While having enough tank for level 5s. How fast is an interceptor gonna orbit a ship while its webbed and scrammed? Not fast enough to avoid being hit.

    You're gonna need a LOT more then two ewar frigates to pin down a marauder now. (P.S. they're immune to damps while bastioned)

    If your gang takes longer then 60 seconds to show up, no marauder kill for them.



    lol .. go try.. i really want to see peopel tryign to use marauders so much in PVP. we gonna get so many nice kills.

    Just a hint.. the number of tornados needed to one shoot a marauder is still same...

    You go take your gang of alpha nados through lowsec to gank a marauder. lol, have fun with that. Also, just a hint, bastion adds to hull resists. Combined wtih a damage control you have 70k+ ehp easily without any additional buffer. Thats more tornados. ALSO, they just increased the overall hp of these ships by a lot. Again. More tornados.

    After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
    Vorseger
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #6018 - 2013-10-17 02:18:41 UTC
    Wow. Now I know CCP wants marauders to just mjd around....f this.

    A LOT of your questions with "answers" are based on a marauder being forced to use the bastion module.

    I still do not see a reason to tie any nerfs to the hulls over making them an attribute of a slotted bastion module.

    At least we now know CCP wants the ship class role to be mjd + bastion....fml.

    T3 Cruisers here I come.
    Roark BleedBlue
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #6019 - 2013-10-17 02:23:41 UTC
    When in Bastion mode, you don't need logis to Incurse! And You do not need webs either. It's Totally doable.
    -Erm...
    But We did tests! You just shift back from bastion, and MJD away from those pesky frigs!
    -But then...I'll MJD away from...the logis too, right?
    We'll talk about this later! After you've given up on using Paladins for Incursions!
    Chainsaw Plankton
    FaDoyToy
    #6020 - 2013-10-17 02:35:42 UTC
    hp bonus yay!

    drone bandwidth, my only concern is the rail kronos having crap for dps. that said the blaster version may be far better than I'm giving it credit for, but I have yet to play with it.

    tractor beam bonus: yay, maybe you could even make it better nudge nudge, wink wink.

    golem tp bonus, is a very nice bonus, it would be a shame if anything happened to it....

    web bonus: I don't care much, but still think it says to incursion runners someone needs to bring a vindi or gtfo. I'm not sure that having only 1 bs with a 90% web bonus is a good or bad thing. but hey maybe with the pirate bs rebalance it will be 0 battleships with a 90% web bonus, and people will have to bring a t3 or a command ship with a 60% web and medium weapons Twisted

    @ChainsawPlankto on twitter