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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
#5981 - 2013-10-16 23:32:15 UTC
Marauders are getting the best of both worlds. Capabilities for tanking and going in-your-face-tank with short range ammo (AC vargur in bastion does get around 50km of effective damage with good projection), or the capabilities of jump away, with 1400s and hit at them, relying on Bastion's extra resistances and a very light tank (1 invul), and the rest into tracking and locking.

As they stand, in Bastion, with 1 shield booster and 1 amp, you can pretty much tank anything, coupled with the long range, you're safe for the most part. The rest can be added as tracking comps, webs, TPs, SeBos, whatnot.

Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
Red Woodson
Estrale Frontiers
#5982 - 2013-10-16 23:32:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Kronos: Battleship - 5% damage, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 10% falloff, 7.5% tracking, 7.5% armor repair


So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.Ugh

No, the vindicator is another kronos, only better Blink Or perhaps you are tired of hearing that the original web strength bonus was on the marauders first? BTW, what is it with you and telling people to get vindis? Do the goons control the bpc supply?


Anyway, I haven't had a chance to test these changes, but just theorycrafting some, I think overall i like them. Don't think they'll open up a very big niche in pvp, but maybe more than current. Will be alot better for lvl 4 missions, and will significantly better than pirate/navy boats on some missions with lots of ewar or rats at long ranges, while not significantly worse than pirate/navy ships in most missions. They also should be nice for several nul sec anoms and complexes.

The only real downside i'm seeing is the loss of the web bonus on the paladin, and that only because there doesn't seem to be a good armor replacement for it in incursions. (vindi lacks the damage projection of pala, at least when armor tanked, iirc) If armor fleets were significantly better than shield for incursions, I'd even call it a justified nerf, but they aren't... I can also understand why the incursion runners want their marauder sp back. As far as they are concerned, CCP is changing the role of the only ship that uses that skill. To them, it'd be like ccp making the scimi a hauler, and not refunding logi sp. Whether or not that justifies a sp refund is another matter, but i can understand it.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#5983 - 2013-10-16 23:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
I'm getting a difference of anywhere form 10% to 100% increased applied damage on close range Battleships with two tracking comps (Tracking from 0.086 to .132) Switching to range I can increase my range from 63km falloff to 74km. I can mjd right into them and do a lot more damage with the tracking scripts if they are 60km+ away. Yea I'm digging this so much right now.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#5984 - 2013-10-16 23:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
I am getting really angry if someone still is saying the vargur becomes better in damage application because of increased fall off.

I fitted my macha and my vargur on sisi:

Macha:

1154 DPS (with sentries 1343 DPS)
540 m/s
4,1 + 61 km opti + fall off

Way of increasing Damage: Afterburner on and keep distance beneath 30km = >909,0 Gun DPS

Vargur:

1082 DPS (with sentries 1176 DPS)
312 m/s
4,1 + 69 km opti + fall off (5,4 +74 within Bastion)

Way of increasing Damage: Jump into fleet, switch on bastion fight distance 40-50 km (average 45) = 792,5 Gun DPS

And thats without drones.

If the actual 25% bonus would not stack vargur would end up with: 69km*1,25= 86,25 km --> 825,5 Gun DPS
WOW 32 DPS more, thats less than a bouncer.


Somehow the advantage of bastion for optimal fighters has no point for vargur. compared to "easy skill" pirate ships they are out maneuvered and out gunned
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#5985 - 2013-10-16 23:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Brib Vogt wrote:
I am getting really angry if someone still is saying the vargur becomes better in damage application because of increased fall off.

I fitted my macha and my vargur on sisi:

Macha:

1154 DPS (with sentries 1343 DPS)
540 m/s
4,1 + 61 km opti + fall off

Way of increasing Damage: Afterburner on and keep distance beneath 30km = >909,0 Gun DPS

Vargur:

1082 DPS (with sentries 1176 DPS)
312 m/s
4,1 + 69 km opti + fall off (5,4 +74 within Bastion)

Way of increasing Damage: Jump into fleet, switch on bastion fight distance 40-50 km (average 45) = 792,5 Gun DPS

And thats without drones.

If the actual 25% bonus would not stack vargur would end up with: 69km*1,25= 86,25 km --> 825,5 Gun DPS
WOW 32 DPS more, thats less than a bouncer.


Somehow the advantage of bastion for optimal fighters has no point for vargur. compared to "easy skill" pirate ships they are out maneuvered and out gunned


Oh man, I just used the MJD to jump onto a group of 4BS and 3 cruisers that was 90km away. I was doing around 2 TIMES THE DAMAGE (pen hits close to 3 times) I normally did at 65km. I was getting penetrating shots every 3rd round and the glancing shots were doing 2 times the damage normal hits were doing at normal range.

WTF.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#5986 - 2013-10-17 00:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Anize Oramara wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
my own text


Oh man, I just used the MJD to jump onto a group of 4BS and 3 cruisers that was 90km away. I was doing around 2-3 TIMES THE DAMAGE I normally did at 65km. I was getting penetrating shots every 3rd round and the glancing shots were doing 2 times the damage normal hits were doing at normal range.

WTF.


Then i wish you a lot of fun with serpentis orbiting you at 50 km. You know what happens when you jum to them with your MJD?

Try it. it will surprise you



without sarcasm: if the MJD had a 50 OR 100 km option the vargur would out damage the pirate ships.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5987 - 2013-10-17 00:00:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Savira Terrant wrote:
How about adding an explosion radius bonus and change the TP strength to optimal bonus?

Explosion radius is fine for the Golem, but optimal only applies to turrets (not launchers). This is why I suggested a rate-of-fire bonus (benefits long and short-range weapons) and the RNI still has an edge with damage application.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#5988 - 2013-10-17 00:03:26 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
my own text


Oh man, I just used the MJD to jump onto a group of 4BS and 3 cruisers that was 90km away. I was doing around 2-3 TIMES THE DAMAGE I normally did at 65km. I was getting penetrating shots every 3rd round and the glancing shots were doing 2 times the damage normal hits were doing at normal range.

WTF.


Then i wish you a lot of fun with serpentis orbiting you at 50 km. You know what happens when you jum to them with your MJD?

Try it. it will surprise you



I Don't mission in serp space (and blits the one serp mission I do get in amar space) BUT if I did I'd just load range scripts. Maybe 3 tracking comps? I should be able to push just past 75km with that right? That's getting into good damage dealing range right there. Also no ewar yey!

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#5989 - 2013-10-17 00:03:58 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
How about adding an explosion radius bonus and change the TP strength to optimal bonus?

Explosion radius is fine for the Golem, but optimal only applies to turrets (not launchers).



i guess he meant strength to optimal range bonus for the TP itself, not the guns
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#5990 - 2013-10-17 00:06:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Anize Oramara wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
my own text


Oh man, I just used the MJD to jump onto a group of 4BS and 3 cruisers that was 90km away. I was doing around 2-3 TIMES THE DAMAGE I normally did at 65km. I was getting penetrating shots every 3rd round and the glancing shots were doing 2 times the damage normal hits were doing at normal range.

WTF.


Then i wish you a lot of fun with serpentis orbiting you at 50 km. You know what happens when you jum to them with your MJD?

Try it. it will surprise you



I Don't mission in serp space (and blits the one serp mission I do get in amar space) BUT if I did I'd just load range scripts. Maybe 3 tracking comps? I should be able to push just past 75km with that right? That's getting into good damage dealing range right there. Also no ewar yey!



Max fall off is 50% damage. thats why an increase of 10 km has nearly no effect on applied dps. autocannons kill beneath 30 km to stay over the 75% damage barrier

And nope: 3 TCII with bastion gives you such a huge malus that nearly nothing is increased
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#5991 - 2013-10-17 00:06:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Are we taking into account mid level range increasing implants lv4 missioners will have?

Oh and the vargur is going to absolutely ROCK in angle space. Can you just imagine, 3 tracking comps with tracking scripts, battleships at optimal?

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5992 - 2013-10-17 00:07:07 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
i guess he meant strength to optimal range bonus for the TP itself, not the guns

Ah, that makes sense - although I'm not sure how I feel about a 150km+ TP.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Shivanthar
#5993 - 2013-10-17 00:09:04 UTC
Tragedy wrote:
Any reason why the vargur has the highest mass of all these ships? Its tech 2 yeah, its still minmatar tech 2. Slightly less rust. Why is it heavier then amarr and caldari bricks?


What I was thinking actually is either devs gone mad, or they wrote those masses in reverse order mistakenly.

There is no way a ship like Vargur, which has half its hull as shield planes with glasses attached is heavier than a Paladin, which has all of its hull full of armor plates. Did you guys forgot Minmatar philosopy? Faster and agile? Hell, it's a Tempest hull after all.

It's like saying a loaf of bread is heavier than a watermelon O.o

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#5994 - 2013-10-17 00:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Anize Oramara wrote:
Are we taking into account mid level range increasing implants lv4 missioners will have?

Oh and the vargur is going to absolutely ROCK in angle space. Can you just imagine, 3 tracking comps with tracking scripts, battleships at optimal?


i have used a clone with 2x +5 damage imps and the 5% falloff imp

OFC you are right, i am flying in angelspace, but you have not only angel missions there. serpentis assault or vengeance will drive you crazy if you stay stationary and your applied damage is crap
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#5995 - 2013-10-17 00:11:22 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
my own text


Oh man, I just used the MJD to jump onto a group of 4BS and 3 cruisers that was 90km away. I was doing around 2-3 TIMES THE DAMAGE I normally did at 65km. I was getting penetrating shots every 3rd round and the glancing shots were doing 2 times the damage normal hits were doing at normal range.

WTF.


Then i wish you a lot of fun with serpentis orbiting you at 50 km. You know what happens when you jum to them with your MJD?

Try it. it will surprise you



I Don't mission in serp space (and blits the one serp mission I do get in amar space) BUT if I did I'd just load range scripts. Maybe 3 tracking comps? I should be able to push just past 75km with that right? That's getting into good damage dealing range right there. Also no ewar yey!



Max fall off is 50% damage. thats why an increase of 10 km has nearly no effect on applied dps. autocannons kill beneath 30 km to stay over the 75% damage barrier

And nope: 3 TCII with bastion gives you such a huge malus that nearly nothing is increased


Actually at falloff they do 39% damage. 10 extra kilometer can make a big difference since the ROF is so high.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5996 - 2013-10-17 00:13:02 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
There is no way a ship like Vargur, which has half its hull as shield planes with glasses attached is heavier than a Paladin, which has all of its hull full of armor plates.

It's all the new armored panels for Bastion to protect the glass, lol.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5997 - 2013-10-17 00:13:53 UTC
Serge SC wrote:
AC vargur in bastion does get around 50km of effective damage with good projection

If that is an improvement for you, you are fitting your Vargur wrong. Just saying.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#5998 - 2013-10-17 00:14:41 UTC
the bonus for marauders should be 25% optimal and 50% falloff, because within the fall off you have the drop of dps.
Shivanthar
#5999 - 2013-10-17 00:15:30 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Shivanthar wrote:
There is no way a ship like Vargur, which has half its hull as shield planes with glasses attached is heavier than a Paladin, which has all of its hull full of armor plates.

It's all the new armored panels for Bastion to protect the glass, lol.


:D

What you forgot is that they applied these to base masses. Without bastion module! (Correct me if I'm mistaken)

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6000 - 2013-10-17 00:23:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Why not adding damage to the Bastion mode?
  • Those hulls are not supposed to be outdamaging competition, as this would be favoring the power-creep. They are supposed to fulfill a different role / niche through their high tanks, stable weapon platforms (EW immunity, increase damage projection) and MJDs. It's all about trade-offs; if you wish more damaging hulls, then look for Pirate Battleships / Navy Battleships for that particular purpose, knowing full well you will pay for it in other areas.

    • With the loss of the web bonus (damage application) for some hulls and drone bandwidth on all (direct dps), wouldn't it make more sense to extend Bastion a limited bonus, like a +100% heat absorption to weapons when in Bastion mode? Overload only adds +15% damage or +15% rate of fire.

    Navy Faction versions will still be faster and have more damage application, and there is a huge difference in price tag and skill training.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.