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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5941 - 2013-10-16 20:25:41 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Given that a prominent member of said cartels is such a huge proponent of the changes, it goes without saying the cartels are laughing their asses off at the nerfs to a PvE boat that is used, by huge margin, in high sec.

So the Vindicator can't replace it?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Ashlick
Cartoon Lab Federation
#5942 - 2013-10-16 20:29:53 UTC
Please, why the maradauder get a sensor strength egal to a T1 cruiser .... Sad
Is there a reason to make these ship so easy to jam ?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5943 - 2013-10-16 20:31:58 UTC
Ashlick wrote:
Please, why the maradauder get a sensor strength egal to a T1 cruiser .... Sad
Is there a reason to make these ship so easy to jam ?

Ewar immunity on Marauders with Bastion.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#5944 - 2013-10-16 20:32:06 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Same damage from the guns or slightly better and you can fit them exactly as you do now for pve.

I'd say application damage is probably 25-33% better, at a minimum.


Better damage application? Hardly all you do is extend your guns out a bit further. You are hitting **** at a larger range but its still the same amount of damage being applied. At least with webs you are essentially increasing the tracking rate of your guns thus hitting better. In no way is extending the optimal range actually applying better damage.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#5945 - 2013-10-16 20:33:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:



The fact that you don't understand the ramifications of losing the web bonus, let alone the other nerfs, and how they far outweigh any bonuses coming to the ships, indicates you are a troll, or really don't have a clue how these boats operate.


So use the vindi which has the web bonus and has more firepower than the old kronos.


OR use the fecking paladin you have trained into and NOT cross train into another ship to just gain a web.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5946 - 2013-10-16 20:35:48 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Same damage from the guns or slightly better and you can fit them exactly as you do now for pve.

I'd say application damage is probably 25-33% better, at a minimum.


Better damage application? Hardly all you do is extend your guns out a bit further. You are hitting **** at a larger range but its still the same amount of damage being applied. At least with webs you are essentially increasing the tracking rate of your guns thus hitting better. In no way is extending the optimal range actually applying better damage.

Hitting further reduces angular velocity when utilizing that range causing it to have a similar effect. If you were fighting in falloff range extension also reduces the damage loss there.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5947 - 2013-10-16 20:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Octoven wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Same damage from the guns or slightly better and you can fit them exactly as you do now for pve.

I'd say application damage is probably 25-33% better, at a minimum.


Better damage application? Hardly all you do is extend your guns out a bit further. You are hitting **** at a larger range but its still the same amount of damage being applied. At least with webs you are essentially increasing the tracking rate of your guns thus hitting better. In no way is extending the optimal range actually applying better damage.

Paladin gets a +37% bonus to optimal range and Kronos gets a +50% bonus to falloff, so yeah - that's damage application because you're either going to do damage where the optimal didn't reach before or more as a result of a longer falloff.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Hitting further reduces angular velocity when utilizing that range causing it to have a similar effect. If you were fighting in falloff range extension also reduces the damage loss there.

There's no point in trying to debate this logically.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5948 - 2013-10-16 20:38:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
And I appreciate the clarification (thanks). Nothing I can do about the drones, sorry. Isn't the 'web role' already filled by the Vindicator to some extent?



Jezz you do know rolly eyes indicates sarcasm... right? you guys need to come to Toronto... we are a sarcastic bunch

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5949 - 2013-10-16 20:43:05 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Jezz you do know rolly eyes indicates sarcasm... right? you guys need to come to Toronto... we are a sarcastic bunch

Thanks, that's why I live out West. Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#5950 - 2013-10-16 20:46:40 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.

Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though.


its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential.

that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line is getting nerfed. for his niche use.

ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better...

though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum


To be fair its a bit like forcing someone who has trained specifically into a command ship to change ships because all of a sudden CCP has decided command ships will uniformly be changed to a BC level logi ship. Its utterly **** especially if you have invested **** tons of time training into ship to fill a specific purpose only to have that role flipped ass backwards. Its borderline insanity and if someone has invested time and money into training into something like that I think they rather deserve a voice in bitching about it.

Past rebalances have only looked at weapon systems and ship stats, the weapons changes have been limited to cruisers which do not take much time to swap into a new ship whereas battleships do take a significant skill investment. You really do put those who have trained them for a specialized purpose out to dry and say **** you for your efforts but we arent going that way anymore. The worst part is its not the first time CCP has pretty much slapped its players across the face with a ten ton nerf bat.

It seems CCP has already made the changes solid and for the most part there are equal numbers of people who are supporting these changes as hating them. Only time will tell, in fact hell lets go ahead and put these changes into the game. Perhaps that is the only way for CCP to see and realize how rubbish the entire lot of changes actually are.
Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
#5951 - 2013-10-16 20:50:04 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

I'd prefer a 5% rate-of-fire (since all the other hulls get a damage bonus of some type); a 5% kinetic damage bonus would be fine as well. The 5% explosion radius bonus obsoletes the RNI to some extent, and I'm not sure if a 5% flight time bonus would really be beneficial.



True, redundant hulls are not needed.

For torpedoes raise the explosion velocity with additional 5% to counter the missing painter effectiveness bonus.
For cruses the rate of fire bonus 5%

With the marauder skill per level.
The two separate systems handles differetly. This way both would be viable.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5952 - 2013-10-16 20:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
True, redundant hulls are not needed.

For torpedoes raise the explosion velocity with additional 5% to counter the missing painter effectiveness bonus.
For cruses the rate of fire bonus 5%

With the marauder skill per level.
The two separate systems handles differetly. This way both would be viable.

Cruise missiles have such long range, I'm really leaning towards +5% targeting range bonus (this could free up a low or mid slot by not having to use a signal amplifier or sensor booster). With the RHMLs set to appear in Rubicon I really don't see anyone seriously using torpedoes unless they buff them.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5953 - 2013-10-16 20:54:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Given that a prominent member of said cartels is such a huge proponent of the changes, it goes without saying the cartels are laughing their asses off at the nerfs to a PvE boat that is used, by huge margin, in high sec.

So the Vindicator can't replace it?


If the Vindicator was a better boat, and more efficient, I would be using it now.
It is not, and when the web removal nerf hits it as well, it will also be useless.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5954 - 2013-10-16 20:56:00 UTC
Octoven wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.

Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though.


its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential.

that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line is getting nerfed. for his niche use.

ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better...

though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum


To be fair its a bit like forcing someone who has trained specifically into a command ship to change ships because all of a sudden CCP has decided command ships will uniformly be changed to a BC level logi ship. Its utterly **** especially if you have invested **** tons of time training into ship to fill a specific purpose only to have that role flipped ass backwards. Its borderline insanity and if someone has invested time and money into training into something like that I think they rather deserve a voice in bitching about it.

Past rebalances have only looked at weapon systems and ship stats, the weapons changes have been limited to cruisers which do not take much time to swap into a new ship whereas battleships do take a significant skill investment. You really do put those who have trained them for a specialized purpose out to dry and say **** you for your efforts but we arent going that way anymore. The worst part is its not the first time CCP has pretty much slapped its players across the face with a ten ton nerf bat.

It seems CCP has already made the changes solid and for the most part there are equal numbers of people who are supporting these changes as hating them. Only time will tell, in fact hell lets go ahead and put these changes into the game. Perhaps that is the only way for CCP to see and realize how rubbish the entire lot of changes actually are.


i would be he has minmatar bs at v anyways so any sp he trained still works for the vindi...

word to the wise... EVE is in a contant flux if it stays the same too long it becomes stagnant... change is good... either imbrace it or play some other game...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5955 - 2013-10-16 20:57:02 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Given that a prominent member of said cartels is such a huge proponent of the changes, it goes without saying the cartels are laughing their asses off at the nerfs to a PvE boat that is used, by huge margin, in high sec.

So the Vindicator can't replace it?


If the Vindicator was a better boat, and more efficient, I would be using it now.
It is not, and when the web removal nerf hits it as well, it will also be useless.


yes 90 to 82.5 is totally useless... why did i not think of that.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5956 - 2013-10-16 21:00:28 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
yes 90 to 82.5 is totally useless... why did i not think of that.

Assuming it gets a nerf...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5957 - 2013-10-16 21:03:58 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Octoven wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.

Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though.


its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential.

that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line is getting nerfed. for his niche use.

ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better...

though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum


To be fair its a bit like forcing someone who has trained specifically into a command ship to change ships because all of a sudden CCP has decided command ships will uniformly be changed to a BC level logi ship. Its utterly **** especially if you have invested **** tons of time training into ship to fill a specific purpose only to have that role flipped ass backwards. Its borderline insanity and if someone has invested time and money into training into something like that I think they rather deserve a voice in bitching about it.

Past rebalances have only looked at weapon systems and ship stats, the weapons changes have been limited to cruisers which do not take much time to swap into a new ship whereas battleships do take a significant skill investment. You really do put those who have trained them for a specialized purpose out to dry and say **** you for your efforts but we arent going that way anymore. The worst part is its not the first time CCP has pretty much slapped its players across the face with a ten ton nerf bat.

It seems CCP has already made the changes solid and for the most part there are equal numbers of people who are supporting these changes as hating them. Only time will tell, in fact hell lets go ahead and put these changes into the game. Perhaps that is the only way for CCP to see and realize how rubbish the entire lot of changes actually are.


i would be he has minmatar bs at v anyways so any sp he trained still works for the vindi...

word to the wise... EVE is in a contant flux if it stays the same too long it becomes stagnant... change is good... either imbrace it or play some other game...


My skills are on Eveboard for all to see. I fly all gunnery BS's at V, all gunnery support skills to V.

The reason I don't fly a Vindicator is because it is **** compared to the Paladin in armour incursions, and is **** against Sansha's in missions.

So now I will have to fly an inferior boat, until it is also nerfed, at which point the armour incursion channel will likely fold up, since running L4's at that point will be more profitable, until they get wrecked also.

CCP says it wants to encourage group play, then wrecks one of the primary classes of boats used in group play in PvE.
Hypocrites, all of them.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#5958 - 2013-10-16 21:05:59 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Octoven wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.

Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though.


its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential.

that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line is getting nerfed. for his niche use.

ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better...

though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum


To be fair its a bit like forcing someone who has trained specifically into a command ship to change ships because all of a sudden CCP has decided command ships will uniformly be changed to a BC level logi ship. Its utterly **** especially if you have invested **** tons of time training into ship to fill a specific purpose only to have that role flipped ass backwards. Its borderline insanity and if someone has invested time and money into training into something like that I think they rather deserve a voice in bitching about it.

Past rebalances have only looked at weapon systems and ship stats, the weapons changes have been limited to cruisers which do not take much time to swap into a new ship whereas battleships do take a significant skill investment. You really do put those who have trained them for a specialized purpose out to dry and say **** you for your efforts but we arent going that way anymore. The worst part is its not the first time CCP has pretty much slapped its players across the face with a ten ton nerf bat.

It seems CCP has already made the changes solid and for the most part there are equal numbers of people who are supporting these changes as hating them. Only time will tell, in fact hell lets go ahead and put these changes into the game. Perhaps that is the only way for CCP to see and realize how rubbish the entire lot of changes actually are.


i would be he has minmatar bs at v anyways so any sp he trained still works for the vindi...

word to the wise... EVE is in a contant flux if it stays the same too long it becomes stagnant... change is good... either imbrace it or play some other game...


Yes I agree change is good and quite honestly this team has done a fantastic job with past rebalance but this one just takes the prize for absolute ****.

Look at it this way you have a bastion mod that buffs tanking, you have a MJD which could get you up close pretty fast to hit hard, and you USED to have webs...my friend that combination of bonuses absolutely SCREAMS close quarter brawling and you would have to be daft to not see that. Instead they gave optimal range and encourage sniping? Come on, thats like taking a falcon and giving it bonuses for remote repping...its forcing the ship to go two different directions in terms of roles.

To be honest I wouldnt mind some of the bonuses MJD awesome, bastion mode awesome...but add sniping in? Those are NOT standard tactics its an alien concept that has just been tossed about. Tanking and sniping just are crazy roles to combine imo. I would rather see the optimal bonus replaced with tracking and make the bonuses work with each other instead of against each other.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#5959 - 2013-10-16 21:06:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

My skills are on Eveboard for all to see. I fly all gunnery BS's at V, all gunnery support skills to V.

The reason I don't fly a Vindicator is because it is **** compared to the Paladin in armour incursions, and is **** against Sansha's in missions.

So now I will have to fly an inferior boat, until it is also nerfed, at which point the armour incursion channel will likely fold up, since running L4's at that point will be more profitable, until they get wrecked also.

CCP says it wants to encourage group play, then wrecks one of the primary classes of boats used in group play in PvE.
Hypocrites, all of them.



"Group play" extends beyond incursions. I probably shouldn't expect you to even consider that, though.

The Marauder class is so spectacularly under-used that I'm surprised you didn't see a massive redesign coming. You say they're wrecking the ship and I say they're only wrecking the ship for your specific niche. They're becoming useful for other things now, too.

With the continuing display of Incursion-bear drama-queening in this thread, I can no longer resist saying:

I for one approve wholeheartedly of CCP nerfing ridiculous Incursion income by indirect means such as The Marauder Rebalance™.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5960 - 2013-10-16 21:11:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
"Group play" extends beyond incursions. Get your head out of your ass, Dinsdale.

I for one approve of CCP nerfing ridiculous Incursion income by indirect means such as The Marauder Rebalance™.

Last I saw shield fit pirate BS's were considered the optimal choice for most so I wouldn't count on this slowing down incursion earnings overall by any significant amount. even switching to the "inferior" vindi won't likely make that much of a difference to armor runners considering how often it's used already.