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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5921 - 2013-10-16 19:27:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
The Djego wrote:

Joe Risalo wrote:
I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.

People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required.
Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's?
They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements.
The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.


It is called being lazy, not paying attention, being unable to figure out the pve mechanics and want pve as brain afk as possible. It has nothing to do with doing pve effective or even remotely fast. Nobody that can do this would fit a 1k dps active tank on the hull since it is a utterly wast of slots and time, because you only need it if you are slow, not paying attention and ignoring the mechanics.


It doesn't work that way in Marauders... Their uber tank requires attention, you down targets in 1-5 volleys, and you have to MJD away to reduce tracking at times.

The uber tank allows these ships to be able to do things they could do before.
WH pve, lvl 5 missions...

Of all the ships in Eve, Marauders should be allowed to solo lvl 5's.
If this means they overtank lvl 4's... That's completely fair.


Do you seriously think that people will immobilize themselves for one minute cycles, in low sec (where the L5's are)? In a multi-billion ISK ship, that has minimal defences against super-fast interceptors?

You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec?
Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that.

The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it.

Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it.

No one will use these boats in low sec, nor wormholes, nor in high sec when at war, nor in high sec near gankers, nor ANY incursion, nor in NPC null sec, nor outside any non-secure null sec enclave.


I Luvvvvv the way you are speaking for ALLLL Eve players, as you can CLEARLY know what they are thinking and what they will do and not do...
Nasro Drags
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5922 - 2013-10-16 19:43:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasro Drags
Marauders are good PVE ships. They could use a boost to make them better significantly better than their pirate counterparts at PVE.

The proposed changes will make them worse at PvE (lower DPS due to forcing them into ranged combat) to make them half decent at PVP.

Who PVPs with a bill plus ship? Very few people...

Who PVEs with a bill plus ship? Many...

What is the point of the change, i can't seem to get it...

In fact, you had a great idea with the bastion module, but messed up with a decent ship to fit your idea into it. The bastion module should be a new ship. Not a current ship which actually had a role... PVE...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5923 - 2013-10-16 19:47:25 UTC
Nasro Drags wrote:
Marauders are good PVE ships. They could use a boost to make them better significantly better than their pirate counterparts at PVE.

The proposed changes will make them worse at PvE (lower DPS due to forcing them into ranged combat) to make them half decent at PVP.

Who PVPs with a bill plus ship? Very few people...
Who PVEs with a bill plus ship? Many...

What is the point of the change, i can't seem to get it...

Since when were Marauders supposed to be "significantly better" than their pirate counterparts? I'd say that from a tanking standpoint the new Golems are far superior. For raw DPS, some of the pirate battleships certainly offer better choices. But then they always did. And that's the whole point: choice. Let's continue to have some variety and not make every ship the same.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5924 - 2013-10-16 19:48:49 UTC
Nasro Drags wrote:
Marauders are good PVE ships. They could use a boost to make them better significantly better than their pirate counterparts at PVE.

The proposed changes will make them worse at PvE (lower DPS due to forcing them into ranged combat) to make them half decent at PVP.

Who PVPs with a bill plus ship? Very few people...

Who PVEs with a bill plus ship? Many...

What is the point of the change, i can't seem to get it...

In fact, you had a great idea with the bastion module, but messed up with a decent ship to fit your idea into it. The bastion module should be a new ship. Not a current ship which actually had a role... PVE...


They don't want a pve only combat ship.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5925 - 2013-10-16 19:51:57 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Kronos: Battleship - 5% damage, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 10% falloff, 7.5% tracking, 7.5% armor repair


So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.Ugh
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5926 - 2013-10-16 19:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
baltec1 wrote:
So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.

Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5927 - 2013-10-16 19:54:37 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The fact that you don't understand the ramifications of losing the web bonus, let alone the other nerfs, and how they far outweigh any bonuses coming to the ships, indicates you are a troll, or really don't have a clue how these boats operate.

The reality is that the web bonus was getting nerfed to 7.5%, so are you saying that even at 37.5% you can still live with the change? Because I suspect the answer is still no. Is it just the loss of the stasis web or is it the drone bandwidth as well? Because the other modifications (with one or two minor exceptions) are almost overwhelmingly positive on the latest iteration. And the drones were getting nerfed, regardless.

Fine. Adjust the bonuses as follows (this should make everyone happy):

Paladin: Battleship - 5% capacitor, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 7.5% optimal, 5% damage, 7.5% armor repair
Golem: Battleship - 10% missile velocity, 5% explosion velocity; Marauder - 5% rate of fire, 10% TP, 7.5% shield boost
Kronos: Battleship - 5% damage, 7.5% stasis web; Marauder - 10% falloff, 7.5% tracking, 7.5% armor repair
Vargur: Battleship - 5% rate of fire, 10% falloff; Marauder - 7.5% tracking, 5% optimal, 7.5% shield boost


lol this would make marauder OP and everyone will flock towards it
Domino Artan
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5928 - 2013-10-16 19:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Domino Artan
TheFace Asano wrote:

I personally don't run incursions, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that you are mostly complaining that you cannot use the ship the way you did before. It is changing. The hulls are gaining some of the nerf back, and will be almost the same as before with an extra high slot and extra fittings.

The web bonus would be too powerful for PVP. Waaaay too powerful as no ship but a dread or another maurader would have any options but run or bring a much bigger group. Cruisers can get under your guns in the current SiSi version, as can frigs.

You can now fit a MJD and kill frigs by jumping to distance in incursions. Your tactics will need to change, that doesn't automatically make them worse. Test server has free reign on fitting these ships out. Test out multiple fits and get them blown up to find their limitations. They should have limitations after all. If you still want bonused webs bring the Vindicator.


I run incursions in paladins and although I'm not as enraged as others here about these changes (I never trained Marauder V) they do effectively kill off paladins in incursion fleets. The current method is to warp in with two logistics ships and they provide links and reps. The paladins then web down the ships and kill them.

With the rebalance it's going to take more than 10 seconds to web down some frigates to kill it. Although you could try and pull range to kill them there really is no point because you can move to Navy ships and run the sites faster. That's why after this patch you'll see almost no paladins in incursions. No one is going to just MJDs in incursions .... ever.

I'm sure CCP will monitor how many people actually use these ships after the patch, I would be surprised if the numbers didn't drop. I understand CCP want to move this ship into a more specific role but I'm not sure given the cost of this hull that will happen.

Personally I'll be running incursions in a different ship after the patch and my paladin with sit in a hanger with a dust cover on.

This is the first tiericide that's have a negative impact on my play style, which given the scope of the changes that team has made is pretty impressive - for me at least.
I-RON zeus
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5929 - 2013-10-16 19:55:32 UTC
if maruders are going to kit anyway with the MJD why do they then need a heavy tank? make no sense.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5930 - 2013-10-16 19:57:16 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha, since you took offense with my "not radically different" comment, here's a short synopsis of the actual differences:

• Marauders receive partial T2 resists (still superior to any other battleship)
• Marauders still receive the same shield boost and armor repair bonuses
• Marauders all receive one (1) additional high slot, more power grid, the same or more CPU, a net gain in shields/armor/hull, more capacitor, higher capacitor recharge rate, targeting range and scan resolution
• Marauders receive a reduction in mass and signature radius
• Paladin gets a 7.5% optimal range and Kronos gets 10% to falloff (maybe Golem gets something)

What are Marauders giving up?
• Paladin and Kronos lose the 10% stasis web velocity (which was going to be cut to 7.5% anyway)
• Drone bandwidth has been reduced by 50
• Speed and agility have been slightly reduced

The only radical differences (optional) are the new 70% MJD reactivation and Bastion module, but these are both optional. So yes, they're not radically different in that the latest proposed Marauders are better overall. And they're infinitely better with the MJD and Bastion options (emphasis here on "option").


logical... but dont you get it... the ship is broken without op webbs and 3 sentries...Roll

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5931 - 2013-10-16 19:59:13 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:


logical... but dont you get it... the ship is broken without op webbs and 3 sentries...Roll


Vindicator rides to the rescue again and gifts you these very things!
Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
#5932 - 2013-10-16 20:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Serge SC
Sure, they're somewhat forcing us into long range guns, but for the paladin, tachyons do a lot of damage, equal to pulses, at 3 times the range, with a bit less than half the tracking. At the range marauders are fighting, tracking shouldn't be an issue.

My testing so far with lvl4s is that I get full room aggro, tank everything until they're close and get rid of those small targets within range with 0 angular velocity. Once full room aggro, jump 100km away, and start shooting one by one. Ungrouped guns and you can take 4 frigates at a time, or even 4 cruisers at a time. They'll come to you, debastion and align down to the gate. Keep firing and cleaning those at opti with low angular. Jump back down to the gate and rebastion. Keep killing remaining targets.

This method works particularly well, and gives me plenty of time (around 5 Bastion cycles between jumps) to clear everything until repositioning. It only failed on me with Worlds Collide first pocket, misscalculating the position (lots of trigonometry lol). I find it a lot more tactical for long range guns, where to position, when to move, what to shoot, etc. Granted, since there are no wrecks in Sisi I can't test doing all this while salvaging with a mere 48km range (would love 60kms tractors at twice the speed though, but one can dream...faction tractor? medium tractors? large tractors?)

EDIT: I'm using the Vargur, not the Paladin, to test sites. I prefer shield tanks myself.
Also, CCP Ytterbium, when are the modifications coming to Sisi?

Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5933 - 2013-10-16 20:01:07 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.

Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though.


its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential.

that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line is getting nerfed. for his niche use.

ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better...

though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
#5934 - 2013-10-16 20:02:47 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
    • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
    • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.



Purely removing the TP bonus and apply an explosion radius bonus (e.g. 5% /level -> so like an extra rig) would result in reduced damage application for a crusie fitted golem on anything smaller than a battleship/battlecruiser on the move between 20-80km distances. It will basically trade selectable damage type for 15% lower damage fixed em/thermal types. This "tradeoff" is fine I think.
For torpedoes it is bad. However switching a TP bonus for 5% radius bonus and 5% velocity penalty decrease only for torpedoes would result in 12% lower damage applied with precision torpedoes compared to a Scorch pulse paladin at the same ranges.

This would not hurt the balance much, as precision topredoes would not outperform the cruise missiles, and would be left behind by Scorch around the same 15% damage.
On stationary targets (like a bationed marauder) the rage torpedoes damage would nearly be even to the conflag's (possible compensation is to reduce the radius bonus for topedoes to 4%). And cruises would do less damage on short range.


Yes it is a PvE perspective as i dont do PvP.... Still happy with the current iteration :)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5935 - 2013-10-16 20:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
MeBiatch wrote:
logical... but dont you get it... the ship is broken without op webbs and 3 sentries...Roll

And I appreciate the clarification (thanks). Nothing I can do about the drones, sorry. Isn't the 'web role' already filled by the Vindicator to some extent?

Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
Purely removing the TP bonus and apply an explosion radius bonus (e.g. 5% /level -> so like an extra rig) would result in reduced damage application for a crusie fitted golem on anything smaller than a battleship/battlecruiser on the move between 20-80km distances. It will basically trade selectable damage type for 15% lower damage fixed em/thermal types. This "tradeoff" is fine I think.

I'd prefer a 5% rate-of-fire (since all the other hulls get a damage bonus of some type); a 5% kinetic damage bonus would be fine as well. The 5% explosion radius bonus obsoletes the RNI to some extent, and I'm not sure if a 5% flight time bonus would really be beneficial.

What about something totally different, like a +5% to targeting range per level instead?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5936 - 2013-10-16 20:07:17 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
logical... but dont you get it... the ship is broken without op webbs and 3 sentries...Roll

And I appreciate the clarification (thanks). Nothing I can do about the drones, sorry. Isn't the 'web role' already filled by the Vindicator to some extent?


10% velocity bonus per level.
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#5937 - 2013-10-16 20:09:29 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.

Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though.


its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential.

that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line in him limited use for the ship is getting nerfed.

ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better...

though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum



Although it is funny to see him rage about something other than 'Nullsec RMT Cartels want to kill highsec' for a change.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5938 - 2013-10-16 20:13:46 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum

Ah, well - as they say - a 'kid' can dream...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5939 - 2013-10-16 20:14:25 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So in short, its another vindicator only not as good.

Basically (which is why I don't really care about the web bonus; there are better options). But apparently it's "essential" (and I don't understand that). I still don't think that would satisfy certain people, though.


its only essential when you have tracking links put on a blaster ship that gives it great range and damage potential.

that is what makes dinsdale so upset is his fav ship line in him limited use for the ship is getting nerfed.

ccp has directly told him that the way he uses the ship is not the opitmal use for it anymore and if he wants he can switch to the vindi as it suites his game play better...

though for some reason he is like a child who got his ballon taken away and is having a temper tantrum



Although it is funny to see him rage about something other than 'Nullsec RMT Cartels want to kill highsec' for a change.


Given that a prominent member of said cartels is such a huge proponent of the changes, it goes without saying the cartels are laughing their asses off at the nerfs to a PvE boat that is used, by huge margin, in high sec.
gargars
Willco Inc.
#5940 - 2013-10-16 20:14:47 UTC
So for the module - is High Energy Physics 4 still a requirement or does it look likely? I know there was a comment it might not end up being required?