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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Octoven
Stellar Production
#5781 - 2013-10-16 13:30:53 UTC
Elindreal wrote:
My god so much butthurt.

1. Every ship is situational in pvp. Now there is actually a situation to use marauders onoes!
2. An exclusively PVE ship is daft. So deal with it.
3. Marauders are subpar for incursions anyway. Get a pirate battleship.
4. Call bastion a gimmick all you want. Local tanked battleships are now viable!
5. Don't whine about ISK. people pvp in officer fit t3s and capitals every day.

Catering the rebalance of an entire class of ship to incursion runners is as arrogant as saying the devs are catering to nullsec cartels.

If you wsnt my honest opinion. I'd say wormholers are making out the best with this class.


Actually the new marauders are now exclusively for PVP so Id rather not deal with it...just scrap the ship and advise no one to buy one.
Silent Cyborg
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#5782 - 2013-10-16 13:35:40 UTC
Don't know why you all even bother CCP don't give a **** and will never start caring as long as they make money.

It doesn't matter that you may of trained for years to max out the skillz for your dream ship we all know the process by now...

1. You look at they toy in the shop window glistening in the bright lights of what is awesome

2. You spend years training in to said ship (max skilled not emo flying)

3. CCP nerf said ship

4. You all cry on the fourms

5. You see the next ship you like in the window and you start training all over again.

Mean while the shareholders at CCP get fat of your subscription payments

WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD!
CCP DONT GIVE A **** ABOUT YOU JUST YOUR MONEY
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5783 - 2013-10-16 13:35:54 UTC
I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.

People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required.
Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's?
They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements.
The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.
Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#5784 - 2013-10-16 13:36:59 UTC
Octoven wrote:


Actually the new marauders are now exclusively for PVP so Id rather not deal with it...just scrap the ship and advise no one to buy one.


You should officer fit your T1 battleship hull for PVE then. It will be even more viable.
Now you can save isk on that pesky hull!
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5785 - 2013-10-16 13:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
baltec1 wrote:
The Djego wrote:

The ships have been made worse for any kind of niche they where good in, have not a single one of her actual problems addressed and get completely build around one of the most useless niches in eve(stupid strong active tanking with mjd bonus for comedy reasons) while giving them drawbacks that make them overall pointless for anything else. It is not min/max it is common sense, from somebody that actually flown the hulls in question.


Only in missions.

Your experience there means squat in pvp. The people who have actually been trying these ships out all say the same thing. They are great fun in pvp.


They are worse for L4, worse for Incs, worse for WH(in a RR gang). Without the web bonus they are also pointless in most of her pvp application(don't trust me, trust all the empire war dec people that posted here, agreeing all on this single matter).

Also my experience says me that it is stupid to use a 1B isk hull where a lot cheaper one would do the same thing better in a fleet fight(by getting RR, being able to reposition more quicker, warp out, having lots of people that can fly them) and in solo pvp(by not having a "I have a massive active tank that you can't beak written all over it").

It is nothing new that all kinds of "pvp experts" state hulls with questionable usability are very good on sissi, while they are more or less pointless on TQ.

Joe Risalo wrote:
I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.

People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required.
Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's?
They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements.
The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.


It is called being lazy, not paying attention, being unable to figure out the pve mechanics and want pve as brain afk as possible. It has nothing to do with doing pve effective or even remotely fast. Nobody that can do this would fit a 1k dps active tank on the hull since it is a utterly wast of slots and time, because you only need it if you are slow, not paying attention and ignoring the mechanics.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5786 - 2013-10-16 13:37:42 UTC
Octoven wrote:


They are something different and new so of course they will be fun most new things are but once time goes by that newness wears off and they will return to ****.


The frig gang busting golem will never get old.
MARKEETTT ALT
Krypteia Operations
#5787 - 2013-10-16 13:42:30 UTC
The Djego wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The Djego wrote:

The ships have been made worse for any kind of niche they where good in, have not a single one of her actual problems addressed and get completely build around one of the most useless niches in eve(stupid strong active tanking with mjd bonus for comedy reasons) while giving them drawbacks that make them overall pointless for anything else. It is not min/max it is common sense, from somebody that actually flown the hulls in question.


Only in missions.

Your experience there means squat in pvp. The people who have actually been trying these ships out all say the same thing. They are great fun in pvp.


They are worse for L4, worse for Incs, worse for WH(in a RR gang). Without the web bonus they are also pointless in most of her pvp application(don't trust me, trust all the empire war dec people that posted here, agreeing all on this single matter).

Also my experience says me that it is stupid to use a 1B isk hull where a lot cheaper one would do the same thing better in a fleet fight(by getting RR, being able to reposition more quicker, warp out, having lots of people that can fly them) and in solo pvp(by not having a "I have a massive active tank that you can't beak written all over it").

It is nothing new that all kinds of "pvp experts" state hulls with questionable usability are very good on sissi, while they are more or less pointless on TQ.


It's a T2, it's supposed specialised - aka excelllent in tanking and projection, and very medicore in all others.
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5788 - 2013-10-16 13:42:55 UTC
Josh Cox wrote:
I do like the sounds of those most recent hull changes, but I have yet to run the numbers or test on SiSi (if they are even live yet). BTW, when's the next mirror?

To those of you saying these ships are outperformed by the pirate BS's: from what I've been taking away from this, the pirate BS rebalance is coming soon, I'd say either this expansion or the point release in a few months. It doesn't make sense to compare these marauders to the pirate hulls when we know they're changing relatively soon.

(Comparisons to the T1 hulls are valid though).


next mirror is supposedly the 18th(2 days)

unless they turn all Pirate BS is into nothing but glass cannons you'll still better off most times using a pirate since the DPS and applied dps will actually be higher, and you can still be RR which unless you are solo or everyone in your small gang hates logi is better anyways.
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5789 - 2013-10-16 13:45:57 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

A Paladin with Scorch

Now that you mention ammo, any info on when you're planning to update them?
Like the long post btw, rather detailed.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#5790 - 2013-10-16 13:46:58 UTC
Quote:
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?

There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.


there is that word scrambler again when it should be disruptor its the same on the HIC and dictors special mods please can you change the wording so as to provide clarity

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5791 - 2013-10-16 13:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
The Djego wrote:




Also my experience says me that it is stupid to use a 1B isk hull where a lot cheaper one would do the same thing better in a fleet fight(by getting RR, being able to reposition more quicker, warp out, having lots of people that can fly them)


They are not fleet ships.

The Djego wrote:


and in solo pvp(by not having a "I have a massive active tank that you can't beak written all over it").


People still engage triage carriers with small gangs.
Silent Cyborg
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#5792 - 2013-10-16 13:49:10 UTC
QUICK EVERYONE BACK ON THE JITA STATUE!
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#5793 - 2013-10-16 13:49:25 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Octoven wrote:
To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.

Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.

Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.


If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with.

Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before.

If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#5794 - 2013-10-16 13:54:00 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

A Paladin with Scorch

there are some other marauders out there that dont have such great projection as the paladin what about those ?
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5795 - 2013-10-16 13:54:02 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Offering EoM ships to players would either mean having them drop through loot somehow, which is not really acceptable, or require them to be a fully fledged pirate organization, with territory, asteroid belt infestation, LP stores, agents and complexes. Doing so is a tremendous task which is not planned or even considered at the time being.

I was looking for this devblog ever since the site was updated
It's been 4 years Ytter when are we getting them Sad
Silent Cyborg
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#5796 - 2013-10-16 13:56:23 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Octoven wrote:
To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.

Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.

Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.


If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth than we have to live with.

Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before.

If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.


do you not think seen as this forum thread is sooo long that you might be pissing off too many players and you might be wrong and should stop and re-evaluate the changes. Muarders are a good ship with the web bonuse for all roles in game, losing it is just going to kill the ship. who is going to pvp with a ship that can not defend itself. not even to a t1 frig with a scram.

But thank you ccp electronic attack ships + evil = more isk ransoms for me seen as I will be able to neut and scram them and kill off there pitiful drones
Octoven
Stellar Production
#5797 - 2013-10-16 13:59:43 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Octoven wrote:
To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.

Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.

Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.


If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with.

Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before.

If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.



I understand, please also consider the possibility of refunding SP. I don't normally support that route when it comes to re balancing because you guys have only shifted hull stats in the past re balances; however, this is a pretty significant role change from what people have invest time into. I urge you to consider refunds on this situation. At least let us apply it so something we find more useful. It has been done in the past when stuff has been dramatically altered that takes significant skill time to learn.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5798 - 2013-10-16 14:00:23 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Octoven wrote:
To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.

Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.

Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.


If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with.

Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before.

If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.


No need to apologize. What they want you cannot give them.
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#5799 - 2013-10-16 14:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Doed
Kronos is 5ms faster than the Paladin, but Paladin has less mass? what the duck?

Kronos still cant use its original 3 sentries, I can use 2 sentries or 5 medium drones(does ANYONE use medium drones for PVE? REALLY? SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!?!) Paladin is still superior.

Torp Golem is still garbage.

Vargur is still ass. Mach with 4 bouncers that moves at lightspeed when needed or an immobile crap-dps Vargur? HMM THOUGH ONE!

What exactly did you accomplish here? sort of kinda nothing.

I have always had lvl 4s as my ISK income in this game. From what Ive gathered youve also done some PVE.

But from the looks of it you really dont have a clue on how you should balance things. Give Kronos back its 3 sentries.

Fix Vargur somehow as you dont want to make Bastion Mode give it any falloff whatsoever so its stuck at 1163 dps with 75km falloff and 4km optimal, while stationary. this is just sad.

Golem and torps is the same issue.

If you want them to rely on their "LOL MAIN WEPPENS" Atleast make them do some sort of damage.

Still garbage outside of bastion. "wannabe" t2 resists. less EHP than faction/pirate BS (Which is kinda fine, if they had some resists to make up for overall less EHP, but its miniscule.)

TL;DR

If you arent running "insert x faction - Angels"

Paladin is great.

Kronos SUCKS

Golem sucks more

And Vargur sucks the most. (Even after "un-nerfing" its speed its still quite nerfed from live, GOOD JOB!)

Good job. (irony)
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5800 - 2013-10-16 14:05:59 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before.

If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.



Let me get this straight, first you say that your "internal testing" shows they are effective, but now you say you will look at tweaks after "more hard live testing"???? So what does that mean?

Does that mean "your internal testing" was just lip service to gauging the impact on how much these changes screw a big chunk of the people using these boats?

You know what, Assault Frigates are "effective" in L4 missions. But no one sane uses them, because there are far too many options that are better. The same concept now applies to what you have done to Marauders.