These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Octoven
Stellar Production
#5761 - 2013-10-16 13:10:10 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Octoven wrote:

First off its a naga not nado and second off its shoots further than 80 so you can actually hit them twice as far

Ok, Naga then.

Warp to at 160km has not yet been implemented. Your Naga can't fit an MJD, so You're at roughly 100km IF You enter the field after the engagement has started.

That gives you (in average) 3,63 more seconds... So, unless that inty is directly heading into your direction you won't hit it and by the time you decide to warp out, Your chances to survive that encounter dropped to roughly 50/50. Against an interceptor. Not very impressive.


Given the fact it is just a ceptor and not half the line up of ships i think thats pretty damn good actually. You assume every fleet will have one.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5762 - 2013-10-16 13:12:11 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?

  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.


    • You really don't have a clue how incursions are run, do you?
    I would very much like to see how fast "your internal playtests" show you running a site now, compared to what it is now on TQ.

    And that ultra-specialized Incursion fitting you talk about: That is how the VAST MAJORITY of all Paladins are used.

    And I have done testing too.
    If your interpretation of the word "effective" means that "Marauders will get through an Incursion site, eventually", yep, that is true (assuming all your drones are not trashed by Fozzie's AI, and you don't mind burning through 3-5 million of drones for every 10 million payoff).


    But if you go with a non-delusional definition of "effective", then no, they are not effective at all, since site times have likely doubled, cutting your income in half..

    Of course, that was NEVER a consideration when you thought this up, that being trashing incursion income, right?

    I am sure that during your internal tests of running Incursions, you never once Frapsed an entire site, and compared payout to payout times.

    I could go on about how an internal tanking mechanism, ESPECIALLY now that you re-nerfed the Paladin's cap, requires at least one mid slot for a cap recharger, and many more lows and rig slots than a current fit requires, which further wrecks its effective DPS, but you already know that.


    To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.

    Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.

    Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.


    You blap them as they chase after you. Zero tracking.
    Tramar
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #5763 - 2013-10-16 13:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tramar
    baltec1 wrote:

    These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp.

    It doesn't, they are still much more expensive than standart BSs while not really getting a good pvp benefit. It still leaves them very situational at best.
    Tramar
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #5764 - 2013-10-16 13:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tramar
    doublepost
    Sarmatiko
    #5765 - 2013-10-16 13:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
    Shantetha wrote:
    if you were to actually get a response on this it would be something about how the changes are focused on + pvp not + pve(clearly suppose to be -pve) so there is no need to change the tractor bonus...

    Forcefully pushing people to make PVP on pure PVE ships, or changing pure PVE ships into PVP, won't bring more PVP - it will bring more canceled subscriptions and even less people flying Marauders.
    Currently Marauder rebalance is the most unsatisfactory change of Rubicon expansion - "let's throw them some bone in form of unneeded overtank, and leave other problems like outdated bonuses or damage application unresolved"
    The Djego
    Hellequin Inc.
    #5766 - 2013-10-16 13:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
    baltec1 wrote:
    The Djego wrote:


    Why? The broken ship got bastion and will never gets fixed(because nobody will really use it outside of AT and hand full of niches). I rather take my marauders back as they are, with CCP being unable to find devs that actually understand for what and how the hulls are used and are able to identify problems of each individual one and what to fix instead slapping useless gimmicks on them. It is the best possible outcome in my opinion.


    Sorry but your min/max pve arguments hold no water with CCP. They have been doing a damn fine job balancing the ships and I look forwards to their continued work.

    These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp.


    The ships have been made worse for any kind of niche they where good in, have not a single one of her actual problems addressed and get completely build around one of the most useless niches in eve(stupid strong active tanking with mjd bonus for comedy reasons) while giving them drawbacks that make them overall pointless for anything else. It is not min/max it is common sense, from somebody that actually flown the hulls in question.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
    NiteNinja
    Doomheim
    #5767 - 2013-10-16 13:16:55 UTC
    Cool, I like the navigation changes this means I can use my Golem the way I am now, because less mass = better MWD effectiveness.

    So I can just burn over to where I gotta be, lock down in Bastion mode while I kill stuff, repeat.

    Don't have my T2 ship resistances, but at least now I can have the flexibility to use torpedoes again instead of being forced to use Cruise launchers (which with defenders, is hell on a Golem's DPS).
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #5768 - 2013-10-16 13:18:33 UTC
    Tramar wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:

    These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp.

    It doesn't, they are still much more expensive than standart BSs while not really getting a good pvp benefit. It still leaves them very situational at best.


    They have the best subcap tanks, better range, E-war immunity and faster reuse on the mjd. They also have a lot of spare high slots and most of the drawbacks have been reversed.
    Octoven
    Stellar Production
    #5769 - 2013-10-16 13:19:03 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Octoven wrote:
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


    Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?

  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.


    • You really don't have a clue how incursions are run, do you?
    I would very much like to see how fast "your internal playtests" show you running a site now, compared to what it is now on TQ.

    And that ultra-specialized Incursion fitting you talk about: That is how the VAST MAJORITY of all Paladins are used.

    And I have done testing too.
    If your interpretation of the word "effective" means that "Marauders will get through an Incursion site, eventually", yep, that is true (assuming all your drones are not trashed by Fozzie's AI, and you don't mind burning through 3-5 million of drones for every 10 million payoff).


    But if you go with a non-delusional definition of "effective", then no, they are not effective at all, since site times have likely doubled, cutting your income in half..

    Of course, that was NEVER a consideration when you thought this up, that being trashing incursion income, right?

    I am sure that during your internal tests of running Incursions, you never once Frapsed an entire site, and compared payout to payout times.

    I could go on about how an internal tanking mechanism, ESPECIALLY now that you re-nerfed the Paladin's cap, requires at least one mid slot for a cap recharger, and many more lows and rig slots than a current fit requires, which further wrecks its effective DPS, but you already know that.


    To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.

    Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.

    Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.


    You blap them as they chase after you. Zero tracking.


    Im sorry did you just not read that? 3500 m/s! Assuming you MJD out of their range also assuming you are doing 131 m/s a tama can catch your ass in 29.5 seconds and orbit you thus rendering tracking useless. Also, given your lock time Id say you get maybe 15-20 good seconds of fire off till you are ******. Then you have to go in bastion mode wait a min, then jump again and repeat. You will have gone 1000 km before you kill everything but yeah sure lets subscribe to that tactic.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #5770 - 2013-10-16 13:19:49 UTC
    About the fitting please add a tad bit more cpu to the kronos... that way I only have to fit one cpu rig

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #5771 - 2013-10-16 13:20:41 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Tramar wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:

    These ships have been taken out of a limited use as incursion runners and a few mission areas to viable in most pve and very viable in pvp.

    It doesn't, they are still much more expensive than standart BSs while not really getting a good pvp benefit. It still leaves them very situational at best.


    They have the best subcap tanks, better range, E-war immunity and faster reuse on the mjd. They also have a lot of spare high slots and most of the drawbacks have been reversed.



    Are you getting paid by CCP by the line, or by the post?
    NiteNinja
    Doomheim
    #5772 - 2013-10-16 13:21:02 UTC
    MeBiatch wrote:
    About the fitting please add a tad bit more cpu to the kronos... that way I only have to fit one cpu rig


    Or structure-tank the Kronos, that hull HP is overkill, should save some CPU.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #5773 - 2013-10-16 13:21:38 UTC
    The Djego wrote:

    The ships have been made worse for any kind of niche they where good in, have not a single one of her actual problems addressed and get completely build around one of the most useless niches in eve(stupid strong active tanking with mjd bonus for comedy reasons) while giving them drawbacks that make them overall pointless for anything else. It is not min/max it is common sense, from somebody that actually flown the hulls in question.


    Only in missions.

    Your experience there means squat in pvp. The people who have actually been trying these ships out all say the same thing. They are great fun in pvp.
    Debora Tsung
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #5774 - 2013-10-16 13:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
    Octoven wrote:
    Debora Tsung wrote:
    Octoven wrote:

    First off its a naga not nado and second off its shoots further than 80 so you can actually hit them twice as far

    Ok, Naga then.

    Warp to at 160km has not yet been implemented. Your Naga can't fit an MJD, so You're at roughly 100km IF You enter the field after the engagement has started.

    That gives you (in average) 3,63 more seconds... So, unless that inty is directly heading into your direction you won't hit it and by the time you decide to warp out, Your chances to survive that encounter dropped to roughly 50/50. Against an interceptor. Not very impressive.


    Given the fact it is just a ceptor and not half the line up of ships i think thats pretty damn good actually. You assume every fleet will have one.


    Ceptors, why not? They're cheap enough.

    Even T1 frigs are not that far of from that, they need more effort to reach those insane speeds, true but it's possible.

    In almost any situation were the Naga (Talos, Nado, etc.) has to warp out the marauder can just stay and duke it out.
    EDIT: The same goes for most regular T1 BS Sized Hulls.

    Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

    Fighting back is more fun than not.

    Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #5775 - 2013-10-16 13:23:06 UTC
    Again.. Minamtar ship is HEAVIER than Amarr ones.. WHat are you guys SMOKING?


    Why cant you keep racial consistency? WHy the ships that look made of sails weight more than the Bricks of solid metal?

    WHy to give a FAKE 5 ms speed advantage for the vargur when he mass cancels it?

    WHY?

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Octoven
    Stellar Production
    #5776 - 2013-10-16 13:23:47 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    The Djego wrote:

    The ships have been made worse for any kind of niche they where good in, have not a single one of her actual problems addressed and get completely build around one of the most useless niches in eve(stupid strong active tanking with mjd bonus for comedy reasons) while giving them drawbacks that make them overall pointless for anything else. It is not min/max it is common sense, from somebody that actually flown the hulls in question.


    Only in missions.

    Your experience there means squat in pvp. The people who have actually been trying these ships out all say the same thing. They are great fun in pvp.


    They are something different and new so of course they will be fun most new things are but once time goes by that newness wears off and they will return to ****.
    NiteNinja
    Doomheim
    #5777 - 2013-10-16 13:25:59 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Again.. Minamtar ship is HEAVIER than Amarr ones.. WHat are you guys SMOKING?


    Why cant you keep racial consistency? WHy the ships that look made of sails weight more than the Bricks of solid metal?

    WHy to give a FAKE 5 ms speed advantage for the vargur when he mass cancels it?

    WHY?


    Paladin is the hatred of God surrounded by aluminum cans. Varguar is made of solid tritanium with reinforced mex, several thousand rolls of duct tape, and baling wire. It does add up.
    Elindreal
    Planetary Interactors
    #5778 - 2013-10-16 13:26:18 UTC
    My god so much butthurt.

    1. Every ship is situational in pvp. Now there is actually a situation to use marauders onoes!
    2. An exclusively PVE ship is daft. So deal with it.
    3. Marauders are subpar for incursions anyway. Get a pirate battleship.
    4. Call bastion a gimmick all you want. Local tanked battleships are now viable!
    5. Don't whine about ISK. people pvp in officer fit t3s and capitals every day.

    Catering the rebalance of an entire class of ship to incursion runners is as arrogant as saying the devs are catering to nullsec cartels.

    If you wsnt my honest opinion. I'd say wormholers are making out the best with this class.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #5779 - 2013-10-16 13:26:38 UTC
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


    Are you getting paid by CCP by the line, or by the post?


    I report what I find after testing.
    Josh Cox
    FC Build 'n Trade
    #5780 - 2013-10-16 13:26:44 UTC
    I do like the sounds of those most recent hull changes, but I have yet to run the numbers or test on SiSi (if they are even live yet). BTW, when's the next mirror?

    To those of you saying these ships are outperformed by the pirate BS's: from what I've been taking away from this, the pirate BS rebalance is coming soon, I'd say either this expansion or the point release in a few months. It doesn't make sense to compare these marauders to the pirate hulls when we know they're changing relatively soon.

    (Comparisons to the T1 hulls are valid though).