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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#5441 - 2013-10-13 06:27:02 UTC
Would like to see blue tag commenting what nerfs are gone and which one stay so i can stop giving a damn about this thread.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5442 - 2013-10-13 07:09:08 UTC
Henry Montclaire wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Henry Montclaire wrote:
Anyway, in conclusion, as they exist right now on the test server, these marauders are like nothing else in EVE. They're interesting and potentially potent in PVE, and they're extremely exciting in PvP. I expect the high cost in skill points and isk will be a major deterrent to most people actually flying these things into hostile space, but those who do will have a lot of fun before they meat their inevitable fiery demise. I'm also looking forward to the sorts of maneuvers inventive FCs will be able to come up with.

Thanks for the detailed writeup, appreciated. Would T2 resists make any difference?


It's been suggested that more of bastion's resists be baked into the base hull, and I think that would go a long way to making the ship more valuable in any fleet which fields remote reps, and probably make the ship a bit better overall.

Having T2 resists AND the bastion resist bonus as it exists right now would almost certainly be overpowered. As they exist on the test server the marauders have the potential to fit the most powerful subcap active tank in the game already. I think splitting the resists half and half would probably be best. Bastion would still be formidable and worth using, but it wouldn't be as mandatory as it currently is.

I'm also a fan of adding a tracking bonus to the bastion module, but that's just because I want to be able to shoot orbiting frigates with heavy neutron blasters, which . . . to be honest, probably shouldn't happen.



You really don't get it, do you?

First off, the tank on Marauders is fine as is. Any buffs to the resist base, while nice, is hardly mandatory, and simply results in overtanked ships, with zero gain in performance.

Where the ship suffers, is in the huge huge nerfs to effective DPS, which is what PvE is all about. Who cares if I can tank something even more easily than I am already tanking, if my time to run a site takes 25% longer?

Secondly, as part of this effective DPS nerf of the removal of of the web bonus, armour Maruaders NEED a tracking bonus to be even remotely decent in sites. Given the 92% nerf to webs (yeah, do the testing on Sisi and compare the speed of NPC frigs dual webbed), Marauders will not even be remotely viable unless they get a huge huge tracking bonus.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#5443 - 2013-10-13 07:24:06 UTC
So I guess there's no chance anymore that marauders would be made usable on TQ?

.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#5444 - 2013-10-13 07:25:00 UTC
Darling Hassasin wrote:
[quote=Daishan Auergni]


pair of Nightmares or Vindis or Machs (depending on the rat) will blitz missions WAY faster and I have those too. I use Dramiels for Recon 2 of 3 and 3 of 3 and Cargo Delivery. I also do my missioning in a double lvl-4 security station and I have 8 toons that can get missions, so out of 16 possible missions I get to cherry pick what to run (I tend to pick those missions that get me 8000+ LP per mission and very little travel.)

Marauders will get a small part of that in my Eve dAay. Like I said, one more tool in the toolbox.

If I want to run incursions, I'll fire up four computers and with the new marauders I'll be able to field four dps ships (two self-tanking Paladins, a VIndi and a Bhaal instead of three NM's that I run now.) Win? A billion isk for a few hours of work ain't bad.

How do you PvE?[/quote

Foa all that effort you are doing it wrong. If you are running 4x high SP chars at the same time you should look to at least quadraple your isk per hour with wh running or lvl5s... rly..

and leave high sec?
whats wrong with you?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5445 - 2013-10-13 07:25:53 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Where the ship suffers, is in the huge huge nerfs to effective DPS, which is what PvE is all about. Who cares if I can tank something even more easily than I am already tanking, if my time to run a site takes 25% longer?

Hey, I wanted a 25% rate of fire in Bastion mode...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#5446 - 2013-10-13 08:02:46 UTC
Henry Montclaire, i checked your killboard and i had to smile. you talking about marauder pvp gives me a shiver. I am writing with one of my alts, but seriously, if the char Henry Montclaire is not an alt of yours then shame on you.

All your long text and it seems you never did PVP with high class battleships on TQ, or small gang solo pvp.

I don't want to bash you, but singularity fights are mostly so far away from reality that it hurts me someone getting conclusions out of it. Especially if the KB shows nothing similar.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5447 - 2013-10-13 08:21:10 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You really don't get it, do you?

First off, the tank on Marauders is fine as is. Any buffs to the resist base, while nice, is hardly mandatory, and simply results in overtanked ships, with zero gain in performance.

Where the ship suffers, is in the huge huge nerfs to effective DPS, which is what PvE is all about. Who cares if I can tank something even more easily than I am already tanking, if my time to run a site takes 25% longer?

Secondly, as part of this effective DPS nerf of the removal of of the web bonus, armour Maruaders NEED a tracking bonus to be even remotely decent in sites. Given the 92% nerf to webs (yeah, do the testing on Sisi and compare the speed of NPC frigs dual webbed), Marauders will not even be remotely viable unless they get a huge huge tracking bonus.


1. The addition of a range bonus (on the hull AND on bastion) is a far greater boost to applied DPS than the loss of two unbonused sentry drones.
2. Manually shooting frigs one at a time via webs is absurdly inefficient. You pop them at range or you use drones. Webbing them and waiting for them to speed down is a phenomenal waste of time. Just fire off your MJD and blap them from 100km away, you got a range bonus, use it.

Oh, right, you're not going to fit that, you're going to insist on burning around with a MWD and pretend you're flying a Mach, and then complain how whatever you're flying is worse than the Mach.

Bastion opens up the possibility of soloing 10/10 plexes, high class WH anomalies, L5 missions, and moving Logistics ships out of Incursion sites in favor of more DPS because they can local tank full aggro. The current tank is insufficient for all of those. But, of course, you don't care about any of that, because you either don't do any of that content or faceroll it with your five boxed Logi alts. Then you get incensed when others are happy with a ship that lets them do things on one account.

People in this thread are actually using arguments like, "OMG, with the align time nerf it now takes 5 seconds longer to enter warp, which means 20-30 more seconds to move from the mission to the agent! These ships are WORTHLESS now. They were godlike when it took 20 less seconds, but now they're WORTHLESS blah blah blah blah"
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#5448 - 2013-10-13 08:42:03 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
[quote=Dinsdale Pirannha]You really don't get ...
...People in this thread are actually using arguments like, "OMG, with the align time nerf it now takes 5 seconds longer to enter warp, which means 20-30 more seconds to move from the mission to the agent! These ships are WORTHLESS now. They were godlike when it took 20 less seconds, but now they're WORTHLESS blah blah blah blah"


No, instead of trolling you should read more carefully. The most people say:


  • Decrease of applied damage
  • over tanked cow
  • reduction in high sec income per hour


there is no worthless, theyy will be used for certain situations like high chance of e war, but they will not be used for incursions. i make more isk/hour in 0.0. only the bigger incursions increase income compared to 0,0 and wh space, and there you can't take the marauder.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5449 - 2013-10-13 10:04:53 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
[quote=Dinsdale Pirannha]You really don't get ...
...People in this thread are actually using arguments like, "OMG, with the align time nerf it now takes 5 seconds longer to enter warp, which means 20-30 more seconds to move from the mission to the agent! These ships are WORTHLESS now. They were godlike when it took 20 less seconds, but now they're WORTHLESS blah blah blah blah"


No, instead of trolling you should read more carefully. The most people say:


  • Decrease of applied damage
  • over tanked cow
  • reduction in high sec income per hour


there is no worthless, theyy will be used for certain situations like high chance of e war, but they will not be used for incursions. i make more isk/hour in 0.0. only the bigger incursions increase income compared to 0,0 and wh space, and there you can't take the marauder.


They have the same DPS from the guns/missiles but better damage application at range.
The supertank is a very big plus for pvp.
You lost two sentries worth of firepower in exchange for getting 60 to 70 km range on blasters.
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#5450 - 2013-10-13 10:29:26 UTC
How come bastion doesn't give bonus to hull tanking? It gives bonuses to hull resist... Was gonna try an fit up a wicked hull tanked kronos but no hull rep bonus Cry

Blue-Fire Best Fire
Shivanthar
#5451 - 2013-10-13 10:34:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Daishan Auergni wrote:

'PvE king'?

Whose? Not mine.


Mine IS. Did you notice a couple posts before, I told "soloed lvl5 mission with a Vargur on Sisi" ? Not to mention current Sisi doesn't have any faction mods around, so I went with all t2 - except guns (used scout 800MM's) I really wonder how you do it with a nightmare, under heavy neut pressure, if you were able to find enough cap booster to fire your "tachyon Nightmare", run 2xasb in order to mitigate incoming damage and tanking @the same time.. I was once criticized by going lvl4's with friends by Sigras, but I had a lot of oppurtunity to see my ship's place within others while fighting agains same enemies back to back. And yet Nightmare is an extremely powerful ship in most cases, its solo missioning capability is nothing more than average (compared to a Vargur).

Daishan Auergni wrote:

People who only fly TQ marauders for their missioning are not being efficient. Or they have one toon. But if so, there's some clear benefits for them in the new marauders.


Yes, I've one toon and I don't see any clear benefits with new design. Look@my past posts.

Daishan Auergni wrote:

Something like Assault (Guristas) or Blockade (Sansha) is a pain in the ass for a solo pilot, regardless of ship (sentry drone boats are doable, but meh dps).


Talking to a man that can solo lvl5 with a single Vargur, this sentence looks like "in order to fly to Sun from Earth, I must fart so strong that whole Solar System should slide under me instead of me moving towards."

Daishan Auergni wrote:

Marauders will get a small part of that in my Eve day. Like I said, one more tool in the toolbox.


Marauders have gotten nearly the whole part of my Eve day, Like I said, it is the only tool in my toolbox. If not counting my sniping drone TFI.

Daishan Auergni wrote:

If I want to run incursions, I'll fire up four computers and with the new marauders I'll be able to field four dps ships (two self-tanking Paladins, a VIndi and a Bhaal instead of three NM's that I run now.) Win? A billion isk for a few hours of work ain't bad.

How do you PvE?


If I want to run incursions, I will go to the system and will ask for invite by linking my ship's build. That is how most people do it, unless they've a lot of accounts trained like you.

For How do you PvE? part;

Go to station, talk with agent, fit ship, hit accept, go to the system&site, kill kill kill, pull pull pull wrecks, salvage salvage salvage, loot loot loot, go to the next room and repeat. When finished, return to the station and turn the mission in O.o

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Shivanthar
#5452 - 2013-10-13 11:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Joe Risalo wrote:
Just to stop all the QQ.

Rebalance Marauders without bastion, so that people can QQ that they trained for however long for a pve boat, that is now worthless.

Then, create and new class.

The class can simply be referred to as Bastions and the module can be wrapped into the ship, as too many people will QQ if you try to establish bastions being usable on any other ships.


Make them out of the tier 3 BS's but keep the Caldari as a Missile boat.

For the sake of creating more QQ, please give them more dps than existing marauders.


I have been watching this guy closely as he has been reading, replying and generating ideas of all kind on this subject since the beginning. While I'm not all same with his ideas, this one really intersects with mine.

Dividing Marauders into two class, one being bastions and others being raiders (or some other fancy name, bammers/bumpers/besaid aurochs O.o ok nvm!), the prior should be the design of current subject while latter one becomes the mobile and agile version while incorporating fixes of current Marauder problems.

+1

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5453 - 2013-10-13 11:18:21 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
They (CCP) don't want PVE only battleships. If they are at all still useful in PVE by the end of this (which I will admit it still has some use I suppose), then I gueass we should consider that luck.


Actually they did want pve battleships, because they feared a T2 battleship would have to much impact on pvp(hilarious given that they came out at a time where solo BS did mean nano BS).

I actually would love to fly a torp Golem with the proper speed, a Kronos with lots of utility and spare drones for solo pvp, a Vargur that can lock targets at gates before they warp off and a Paladin that can utilize heavy RR and high dps while staying mobile, similar as the navy apoc, without getting jammed by the first light ecm wave and having some utility high slots for pvp. All of this seams far more useful to me than flying a immobile brick that got limited use outside station pvp and engaging low sec gate camps with a oversized active tank, what are only niche applications in pvp.

It is always funny to see that people drawing a imaginable line between pve and pvp while both stuff is based around the same mechanics in the end.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#5454 - 2013-10-13 11:21:43 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You really don't get it, do you?

First off, the tank on Marauders is fine as is. Any buffs to the resist base, while nice, is hardly mandatory, and simply results in overtanked ships, with zero gain in performance.

Where the ship suffers, is in the huge huge nerfs to effective DPS, which is what PvE is all about. Who cares if I can tank something even more easily than I am already tanking, if my time to run a site takes 25% longer?

Secondly, as part of this effective DPS nerf of the removal of of the web bonus, armour Maruaders NEED a tracking bonus to be even remotely decent in sites. Given the 92% nerf to webs (yeah, do the testing on Sisi and compare the speed of NPC frigs dual webbed), Marauders will not even be remotely viable unless they get a huge huge tracking bonus.


1. The addition of a range bonus (on the hull AND on bastion) is a far greater boost to applied DPS than the loss of two unbonused sentry drones.
2. Manually shooting frigs one at a time via webs is absurdly inefficient. You pop them at range or you use drones. Webbing them and waiting for them to speed down is a phenomenal waste of time. Just fire off your MJD and blap them from 100km away, you got a range bonus, use it.

Oh, right, you're not going to fit that, you're going to insist on burning around with a MWD and pretend you're flying a Mach, and then complain how whatever you're flying is worse than the Mach.

Bastion opens up the possibility of soloing 10/10 plexes, high class WH anomalies, L5 missions, and moving Logistics ships out of Incursion sites in favor of more DPS because they can local tank full aggro. The current tank is insufficient for all of those. But, of course, you don't care about any of that, because you either don't do any of that content or faceroll it with your five boxed Logi alts. Then you get incensed when others are happy with a ship that lets them do things on one account.

People in this thread are actually using arguments like, "OMG, with the align time nerf it now takes 5 seconds longer to enter warp, which means 20-30 more seconds to move from the mission to the agent! These ships are WORTHLESS now. They were godlike when it took 20 less seconds, but now they're WORTHLESS blah blah blah blah"

ROFL, " but my mach is better at being a mach than these ships, F*** YOU CCP"

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5455 - 2013-10-13 11:36:43 UTC
The Djego wrote:


It is always funny to see that people drawing a imaginable line between pve and pvp while both stuff is based around the same mechanics in the end.


PvE is nothing like PvP.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5456 - 2013-10-13 12:27:29 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Would like to see blue tag commenting what nerfs are gone and which one stay so i can stop giving a damn about this thread.



Big lines: marauder gets a mjd bonus and a new funky module

Nothing to make it more appealing than it was for what you were doing with before. I'd like to be wrong but very unlikely.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Kate stark
#5457 - 2013-10-13 12:34:51 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Would like to see blue tag commenting what nerfs are gone and which one stay so i can stop giving a damn about this thread.



Big lines: marauder gets a mjd bonus and a new funky module

Nothing to make it more appealing than it was for what you were doing with before. I'd like to be wrong but very unlikely.


that's good, i can keep my mach until they announce if they're going to nerf it in any meaningful way or if it's still going to retain its damage bonus meaning it will still outclass all the marauders.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5458 - 2013-10-13 14:06:47 UTC
Can't find it in this thread, was there already an explanation given why the optimal and falloff bonus is the same and not double falloff similar to tacking comps and enhancers? Are we back in 2008 where falloff is somehow supposed to be as strong as optimal?
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5459 - 2013-10-13 16:21:25 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:
Can't find it in this thread, was there already an explanation given why the optimal and falloff bonus is the same and not double falloff similar to tacking comps and enhancers? Are we back in 2008 where falloff is somehow supposed to be as strong as optimal?


They are the same. pretty much imo, since you can use tracking computer to compensate the missing factor.
Henry Montclaire
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#5460 - 2013-10-13 17:38:43 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Henry Montclaire, i checked your killboard and i had to smile. you talking about marauder pvp gives me a shiver. I am writing with one of my alts, but seriously, if the char Henry Montclaire is not an alt of yours then shame on you.

All your long text and it seems you never did PVP with high class battleships on TQ, or small gang solo pvp.

I don't want to bash you, but singularity fights are mostly so far away from reality that it hurts me someone getting conclusions out of it. Especially if the KB shows nothing similar.



You are correct, I've had very little PvP experience on live. I'd like to have more, but I simply haven't found a good group to fly with, and my funds really can't handle me going off and losing a battleship to a gate camp every week. Aaaaand I don't want to lose my implants because I'm currently training for something . . . So yeah, I'm not an experienced or even good PvPer.

But I did play around with the marauder for a day on the test server and wanted to share my experience for anyone else who hasn't had a chance to actually use it.

And while having a small gang of marauders sitting around a site waiting for enemies to come calling might not usually get a lot of play on live, I figure it may actually be fairly potent in large faction warfare sites. But this is all conjecture on my part, informed by a lot of media consumption perhaps, but when it comes to PvP I'm still largely a newb.

What I do know for certain though that the marauder is a lot of fun to fly. I can't wait to try it out on live!