These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Retriever vs. Procurer?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Maximillan Lancaster
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-10-10 13:01:55 UTC
Do travel times really matter from going to and from a station if the station is just in the same system as the asteroids? Also, how much ISK per hour can you make in a Retriever and a Procurer mining scordite and pyroxeres?

Cheers.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-10-10 13:04:16 UTC
It does matter. The time spent in warp and station means you are not mining and thus miss out on cycles in the long run.

How much, well do the math as that is different for each region, how and where you sell and your skills etc.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Velicitia
XS Tech
#3 - 2013-10-10 13:19:27 UTC
Not doing all the math for you ..

but using totally made up numbers ...

Proc = fills in 10 mins, 12000 m3 (base stats)
Ret = fills in 20 mins, 27500 m3 (base stats)

RTT time Station to Belt = 2 mins
We'll assume that the clock starts when you first fire up your lasers.

In a Procurer, you'll get 5 loads (50 minutes) + 10 mins of travel per hour
In a retriever, you'll get a 2.8 loads (56 minutes) + 4 mins of travel time per hour.

At the end of one hour (counting full trips only):
5 trips @ 12000 m3/trip = 60,000 m3
2 trips @ 27,500 m3/trip = 55,000 m3

However, since we get nearly 3 trips per hour in our retreiver ...

second hour (full trips only)
10 trips @ 12000 = 120000 (total, 60k/hour)
5 trips @ 27,500 = 137,500 (2 trips first hour, 3 trips in the second)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Maximillan Lancaster
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-10-10 14:06:33 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Not doing all the math for you ..

but using totally made up numbers ...

Proc = fills in 10 mins, 12000 m3 (base stats)
Ret = fills in 20 mins, 27500 m3 (base stats)

RTT time Station to Belt = 2 mins
We'll assume that the clock starts when you first fire up your lasers.

In a Procurer, you'll get 5 loads (50 minutes) + 10 mins of travel per hour
In a retriever, you'll get a 2.8 loads (56 minutes) + 4 mins of travel time per hour.

At the end of one hour (counting full trips only):
5 trips @ 12000 m3/trip = 60,000 m3
2 trips @ 27,500 m3/trip = 55,000 m3

However, since we get nearly 3 trips per hour in our retreiver ...

second hour (full trips only)
10 trips @ 12000 = 120000 (total, 60k/hour)
5 trips @ 27,500 = 137,500 (2 trips first hour, 3 trips in the second)


Thanks for the insight! Hopefully I can maximize profit manufacturing Warrior I's. :P
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-10-10 14:33:55 UTC
Tip: NEVER ever tell anybody what you are making/selling. You are more or less giving your competitors an insight on how you maoe money.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-10-10 15:06:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
Maximillan Lancaster wrote:
Thanks for the insight! Hopefully I can maximize profit manufacturing Warrior I's. :P


Manufacturing profit has nothing to do with what you're mining in. Manufacturing profit is the difference between what you sold the items for and what the raw materials cost (or would have cost if bought)

I hope you have a well-researched BPC and perfect manufacturing skills, because Warrior I are barely even making a profit with that. Without, you'll be selling the drones for less than the minerals cost.
Tadeshi Ichikaze
NorVor Ltd.
#7 - 2013-10-10 17:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tadeshi Ichikaze
Things have changed a lot in mining since I left but what it looks like now to me is ...


You've got several different ships that are designed for different functions.

The Procurer's/Skiffs are tougher.
The Retrievers/Macks have a larger ore hold.
The Covetor's/Hulks will mine more in a given time but have a smaller ore hold.

Thus, it would seem that you'd use the Procurers in more risky situations, the Retrievers if you're mining solo and the Covetors if you've got a hauler you're teamed up with.

The old path was Mining Frigate > Mining Cruiser > Retriever > Hulk. Once you got into a Hulk - you'd probably not use anything less as for one thing - the Hulk's had the largest carrying capacity as well as the most mining ability.

Now ... it may not be that way, with each ship serving a different function, so that you'd use a different one based on your situation at the moment and might own several of them.

*shrug*

.
.
.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-10-10 19:24:02 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Maximillan Lancaster wrote:
Thanks for the insight! Hopefully I can maximize profit manufacturing Warrior I's. :P


Manufacturing profit has nothing to do with what you're mining in. Manufacturing profit is the difference between what you sold the items for and what the raw materials cost (or would have cost if bought)

I hope you have a well-researched BPC and perfect manufacturing skills, because Warrior I are barely even making a profit with that. Without, you'll be selling the drones for less than the minerals cost.


This basically


Profit = Selling price - Production cost.


Production cost = price of the minerals needed for construction + value of the blueprint + cost of renting factory slot

***Home mined minerals are NOT free, as you could have sold them for ISK***


So the faster you mine doesn't mean production cost will go down, it just means you are more efficient.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-10-10 19:25:58 UTC
Tadeshi Ichikaze wrote:
Things have changed a lot in mining since I left but what it looks like now to me is ...


You've got several different ships that are designed for different functions.

The Procurer's/Skiffs are tougher.
The Retrievers/Macks have a larger ore hold.
The Covetor's/Hulks will mine more in a given time but have a smaller ore hold.

Thus, it would seem that you'd use the Procurers in more risky situations, the Retrievers if you're mining solo and the Covetors if you've got a hauler you're teamed up with.

The old path was Mining Frigate > Mining Cruiser > Retriever > Hulk. Once you got into a Hulk - you'd probably not use anything less as for one thing - the Hulk's had the largest carrying capacity as well as the most mining ability.

Now ... it may not be that way, with each ship serving a different function, so that you'd use a different one based on your situation at the moment and might own several of them.

*shrug*

.
.
.



TIP: Mine in a procurer, even when solo.

Procurers can be tanked sufficient to survive an average gank. Retrievers can not, cause the lack of slots to tank it properly.
Mining in a retriever will be an invite to gankers to part you from your precious ship quickly now-a-days.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-10-10 20:06:41 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
TIP: Mine in a procurer, even when solo.

Procurers can be tanked sufficient to survive an average gank. Retrievers can not, cause the lack of slots to tank it properly.
Mining in a retriever will be an invite to gankers to part you from your precious ship quickly now-a-days.
Debatable.

The additional yield from the saved trips will pay your retriever quite quickly. If we take Velicitia's example with a 2 minute round-trip, the additional yield (compared to a Procurer) will pay your retriever in ~21 hours of mining. If you get ganked less often than that you'll still end up ahead with retrievers, even if you lose a couple.
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-10-10 20:25:21 UTC
Maximillan Lancaster wrote:
Also, how much ISK per hour can you make in a Retriever and a Procurer mining scordite and pyroxeres?
Solo, with max skills, in a Retriever, you can get to ~12 million ISK/hour mining scordite under optimal conditions. Usually a bit less, as conditions are rarely optimal.

In a fleet with full Orca boosts you can add about 50% to your yield, but then you'd have to pay the Orca pilot.
Tadeshi Ichikaze
NorVor Ltd.
#12 - 2013-10-11 01:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tadeshi Ichikaze
nvm
Ygnigem
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-10-11 05:40:17 UTC
Thomas Builder wrote:
Debatable.

The additional yield from the saved trips will pay your retriever quite quickly. If we take Velicitia's example with a 2 minute round-trip, the additional yield (compared to a Procurer) will pay your retriever in ~21 hours of mining. If you get ganked less often than that you'll still end up ahead with retrievers, even if you lose a couple.


Since most miners ignore the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule quite blatantly, I would say if it's your first mining barge, make it a Procurer because it's the safe option. You can always switch to a Retriever later.
Tadeshi Ichikaze
NorVor Ltd.
#14 - 2013-10-11 21:10:49 UTC
Ygnigem wrote:
Thomas Builder wrote:
Debatable.

The additional yield from the saved trips will pay your retriever quite quickly. If we take Velicitia's example with a 2 minute round-trip, the additional yield (compared to a Procurer) will pay your retriever in ~21 hours of mining. If you get ganked less often than that you'll still end up ahead with retrievers, even if you lose a couple.


Since most miners ignore the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" rule quite blatantly, I would say if it's your first mining barge, make it a Procurer because it's the safe option. You can always switch to a Retriever later.



They're cheaper too.

Here though you're talking about Risk vs. Reward, which is a judgement call each player must make on how they do things.

Selling everything you have to buy a ship and having only a rookie ship to fall back on if you lose it - that is probably more risk than is advisable - though a lot of People (not just miners) do just that and ... you see them in local ... begging for money because their ship got blown up.


I'd not say that starting off with a Procurer was a bad idea though. Just that you don't have to do that. I had my mining frigate fully fitted - and still have not only it but another as well - so that I'd not have been that bad off if I lost the Retriever. I made the money for the Retriever with that mining frigate once ... I could do it again. I didn't have to and now have enough money to buy ... much more expensive ships than Retrievers ...


But having the Procurer in house - also gives you options ... the kind of options you could be exercising with the mining frigate ... about taking your ship into more dangerous areas. I think ... given what I've been hearing ... that this is what was behind the current design of the Procurer and Skiff.

In the old days - you simply bought better ships until you got a Hulk and then that was it. Now - I do believe that the ships are more designed for a purpose - so that you might well own several of them and use a different one based on what it is you are trying to do and where it is you're trying to do it.

(This is what I was trying to say in the post I deleted above but ... I didn't do a good job and didn't have time to fix it so I just cleared it out).

.
.
.
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#15 - 2013-10-12 02:41:52 UTC
Thomas Builder wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
TIP: Mine in a procurer, even when solo.

Procurers can be tanked sufficient to survive an average gank. Retrievers can not, cause the lack of slots to tank it properly.
Mining in a retriever will be an invite to gankers to part you from your precious ship quickly now-a-days.
Debatable.

The additional yield from the saved trips will pay your retriever quite quickly. If we take Velicitia's example with a 2 minute round-trip, the additional yield (compared to a Procurer) will pay your retriever in ~21 hours of mining. If you get ganked less often than that you'll still end up ahead with retrievers, even if you lose a couple.


Have you taken into account the time spent buying and fitting a retriever into that 21h calculation? If the nearest trade hub is over 10 jumps away, flying a retriever back from there after a gank can eat a lot of time.
Tadeshi Ichikaze
NorVor Ltd.
#16 - 2013-10-12 06:17:45 UTC
Trevor Dalech wrote:
Thomas Builder wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
TIP: Mine in a procurer, even when solo.

Procurers can be tanked sufficient to survive an average gank. Retrievers can not, cause the lack of slots to tank it properly.
Mining in a retriever will be an invite to gankers to part you from your precious ship quickly now-a-days.
Debatable.

The additional yield from the saved trips will pay your retriever quite quickly. If we take Velicitia's example with a 2 minute round-trip, the additional yield (compared to a Procurer) will pay your retriever in ~21 hours of mining. If you get ganked less often than that you'll still end up ahead with retrievers, even if you lose a couple.


Have you taken into account the time spent buying and fitting a retriever into that 21h calculation? If the nearest trade hub is over 10 jumps away, flying a retriever back from there after a gank can eat a lot of time.



That only really matters if you're buying one every day ... in which case you'd have bigger problems than the trip to and from the Retriever store.

.
.
.
Eli Kzanti
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-10-12 07:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Kzanti
Tadeshi Ichikaze wrote:
That only really matters if you're buying one every day ... in which case you'd have bigger problems than the trip to and from the Retriever store.

.
.
.

I think you're overestimating the cognitive processes of your target audience. Dem minerz be foolz. They'd seriously just keep mining with the same ship in the same system where they keep being ganked.

Like, seriously, I once saw this guy ganked 4 times in a retriever one day, 3 times in a retriever fitted the same way the next day... until he literally ran out of isk and was in a venture again. Then when he could afford it... he got ganked in a retriever fitted the same damn way -.-