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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#5241 - 2013-10-10 14:03:56 UTC
Kronos needs atleast a 75/100 drone bay, its dps with rails, navy AM 4 navy magstabs + t2 RoF rig is 1009, thats 70 less than the paladin while actually having more cap issues.

And your "amazing" blaster fit just doesnt have the range for most pve solo situations to be worthwhile. so no. give it dronebay.


And do whatever bastion nerf you need to do to make them useful outside of Bastion.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5242 - 2013-10-10 14:08:35 UTC
Doed wrote:
Kronos needs atleast a 75/100 drone bay, its dps with rails, navy AM 4 navy magstabs + t2 RoF rig is 1009, thats 70 less than the paladin while actually having more cap issues.

And your "amazing" blaster fit just doesnt have the range for most pve solo situations to be worthwhile. so no. give it dronebay.


And do whatever bastion nerf you need to do to make them useful outside of Bastion.


Blasters only need to hit 50km to reach everything in anoms in Guristas space. They can hit 70.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#5243 - 2013-10-10 14:23:43 UTC
You would actually fly a kronos in null? Ok... I'll be snipin in mah naga squadron while you sit 100km away being useless. ..
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5244 - 2013-10-10 14:41:21 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
You would actually fly a kronos in null? Ok... I'll be snipin in mah naga squadron while you sit 100km away being useless. ..


I'll be still on grid long after your naga glass cannons have turned to dust.

Get off EFT and start using these ships before commenting.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5245 - 2013-10-10 15:11:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
You would actually fly a kronos in null? Ok... I'll be snipin in mah naga squadron while you sit 100km away being useless. ..


I'll be still on grid long after your naga glass cannons have turned to dust.

Get off EFT and start using these ships before commenting.



Dude you are the one EFTing. A continued tank without any improved dps is nearly irrelevant on most PVP scenarios. Most of the scenarios where this ship would be useful you should already skip into a dread.

You cannto move? You cannot harm me more than thos eother battleship but you have super tank? Whatever.. I will kil those other battleships and have the effective same improvment in my battle scenario .. and after that I think about the marauders ...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Lucian Thorundan
House Of Serenity.
#5246 - 2013-10-10 15:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucian Thorundan
Hey guys,

I've had a look on SiSi at the Bastion mode, here are my thoughts:

(mostly based on the vargur FYI)

1. Taking away drones while not increasing DPS at all on the primary weapons system is a little harsh, the DPS is already "OK" on them as it is now, there are many other ships with comparable damage, some of which apply it much better to a much broader range of targets. If you are dropping the drones, maybe buff the damage a little (increase the % per level a little or add a bonus to damage with the bastion module online)

2. Changing the active boost bonus to a webbing bonus is counter-intuitive to the premise of increased range while in bastion mode, it feels a little misplaced. It is also a real blow to the Marauder's PvE capability (their primary use for now and ongoing in my opinion) while not adding much to PvP for it. Something that maybe assists a buffer tank or an active tank might be good here, maybe additional damage bonuses, additional resist bonuses etc? If the webbing bonus is something you really want, maybe add a tracking speed bonus to the bastion module to basically allow people to engage effectively at the closer ranges, combined with the rep bonus + the other bonuses that might make it much better in PvP and PvE all at once.

3. The bastion module seems to suffer from stacking penalties on the range (like other modules) - I have not done the math but I'd assume the resists do as well. This is OK however the buff to range isn't as great as I would have hoped for, my Vargur fit (admittedly AC's not artillery but still) went from 47km falloff w/o bastion to ~52km falloff with it (2 X TE's, 1 X TC w/ range script), the optimal bonus on AC's is wasted entirely so the buff was lacklustre, not missing but generally not a game changer. maybe decrease the buff but make it absolute rather than a stacking penalty based calculation to slightly increase the gain given most people will bonus their range already with modules. Depending on how the resists are working + will work in the future (built in or from the bastion module or both) this could also work for those - Smaller but absolute increases to raw values, same way the Damage control or ship skill resist bonus's work.

I could write a lot more but I think that pretty much summarises it, I don't have any real ideas on what I would like to see other than to say a damage bonus while in bastion will give a real reason to be IN bastion mode, as it stands now, I gain a tiny bit of extra range and tank bonus's but I'm stuck wherever I choose to activate it for at least 60 seconds.....

NOTE - a full PvP sniper fit is a different deal but this isn't that, it'll have it's own problems too.

As it stands now, I'm basically seeing a very slightly worse PvE ship that wont be overly effective in PvP given the price.

PS - I'm not trying to shoot the idea down, I love the concept, I just feel it needs a little work to be completely "right"

PPS - Sorry for the lack of complete thoughts here, It's 2am and I haven't put a lot of thought into other possibilities.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5247 - 2013-10-10 15:22:37 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


I have seen quite a few conflicting reports on how these can work. With the above statement, hopefully we will have enough drone bandwith 75-100 to be effective and they wont be as slow as they currently are. Honestly the Bastion is pretty cool imo. I wish it would have more projection or damage, but that doesn't mean it will.

I have seen the counters. Of course a cyno hot drop can counter these. Of course a dread will blap these. They have to have counters to be balanced. All BS are pretty weak to these 2 situations anyway and if your not watching intel this will happen to you anyway.

Bastion allows for an insane tank. A group of these will have uses, and as a force you will have to tactically use them properly to get the most from them. I am pretty sure you can have a group work in unison on vent or ts and say align, mjd, initiate bastion, kill target x, unbastion, align, mjd out. This is the tactical use for them. If you get dropped on by a dread fleet during the bastion cycle, your group made a tactical error in activating bastion and the dreads should counter you.

On the nueting issue, this seems pretty moot as you can fit cap booster(s) or several nos to counter the nuets. The Golem and Varger neither one really suffer from the same issue.

I will be testing multiple Golem fits tonight, Vargur seems pretty solid if they de-nerf the hull a bit. AC Vargur will not outperform most faction or pirate in anoms (again couldn't find any to test). Arty Vargur will be pretty nice for PVE though, Cruise Golem should perform better than the CNR (and you wont have to perma run bastion, just an in case for that situation). RHML Phoon Fleet will most likely have better completion times than the other missile competition with 5x sentries, again I am going to try to test that out as it seems llike the only ship outside of the SNI to really have a use for them.

Is there any way we could get a testing area with anoms, I roamed provi for a while and couldn't find any the other night?
Narcotic Gryffin
Digital Mercenaries Inc.
#5248 - 2013-10-10 16:20:05 UTC
Looking at feedback from the test server. Would say the drone bandwidth and/or bay needs improvement, especially in consideration that the Kronos comes from the most drone reliant group and suddenly has crap drone capabilities in comparison to other Gallente ships.

My other thought is the Kronos plus Paladin could really use their old hull web bonus back, just to create variety between the marauders making the them the better close combat marauders over the golem and vargur who would fair better at range. Lack of variety is going to make it a little boring if all of the marauders basically fill the "exact" same role with no difference based on their racial ship other than the guns and basic resists.

http://www.sortius-is-a-geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/history-channel-hd-aliens-thumb.jpg
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5249 - 2013-10-10 16:33:01 UTC
Lucian Thorundan wrote:
3. The bastion module seems to suffer from stacking penalties on the range (like other modules) - I have not done the math but I'd assume the resists do as well. This is OK however the buff to range isn't as great as I would have hoped for, my Vargur fit (admittedly AC's not artillery but still) went from 47km falloff w/o bastion to ~52km falloff with it (2 X TE's, 1 X TC w/ range script), the optimal bonus on AC's is wasted entirely so the buff was lacklustre, not missing but generally not a game changer.


I dont have SiSi installed so i cant test this myself but if the range bonus is stacking penalized then shouldnt we counter this by not using range modules on the ship?

Try fitting it out with more gank and less range and see if the increase in range bastion gives is better that way?

I think the point of the bastion module is to allow u to fit less tank and range mods becuase thats exactly what it gives you.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5250 - 2013-10-10 16:34:18 UTC
1. Taking away drones while not increasing DPS at all on the primary weapons system is a little harsh, the DPS is already "OK" on them as it is now, there are many other ships with comparable damage, some of which apply it much better to a much broader range of targets. If you are dropping the drones, maybe buff the damage a little (increase the % per level a little or add a bonus to damage with the bastion module online)



I believe bastion do increase dps alot, first of all bastion is a tanking module on the high slot, it is equavilant to at least 2 tanking modules, so in theory, you can only do 2 or 3 tank modules, the rest can be use for dps and it still manage to out tank a 4 slot tank on TQ. Secondly, the increase range bonus do increase dps. Again, you dont need to use tracking enchancer or targeting range script, instead you can use tracking speed or a target painter for more applied dps. Your apply damage do get a lot better bastion give you a free range bonus.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5251 - 2013-10-10 16:40:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
marVLs wrote:
Still w8ing for their new stats. Especially better range bonuses in bastion...


BTW. For those interested, single dread will tear apart bastion without problems, tested on golem with DCU, T2 Invus x2, x-large ASB + large ASB + boost amplifier, all overheated and Naglfar blap it within seconds...


Please do this on Tranquility.

The marauders actually move still there... not likely they are gonna get hit.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#5252 - 2013-10-10 16:59:23 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Vargur (AC PvE) feedback after using on sisi:

I agree with what others and CCP acknowledged: hull nerfs were too much. Personally, I believe they should be reverted completely so the marauders can be used in they same way they were used before, but with an extra high or bastion if desired.

Extra power grid: was much needed and appreciated.

MJD Bonus: I actually like this much more than I thought I would, even with an AC fit. I can't say that I'd run one for the majority of 4s, but it will definitely make more appearances on my mission loadouts.

I'm still concerned about the autoloot structure overriding the tractor bonus.

= Bastion =
Hmm where to start... Ultimately, i like the option, but dont want it if it means we gotta keep these hull nerfs.

How bout the good stuff first:
* lvl 5 tank
* cheap and ez lvl 4 omni tank.
* extra tank on 4s can free up a mid as u don't really need a strong tank except for a few mins here and there in some missions.
* ew immunity for certain missions

Now for the bad:
* I don't have hard number, but the difference in projection isnt all that noticeable. ( I assume bc of stacking penalties. I could use bastion range the swap to tracking scripts on the TCs... admittedly I didn't think to try it. I'll get some numbers going on EFT to check this w/e).

* wep timer: I'm not a pvper. Would there be a problem making the timer start at activation and only reapply at the start of a cycle? Not a huge deal, but would be nice.

* what's with the R&D skill prereq? Maybe change to marauders 3 or 4?
marVLs
#5253 - 2013-10-10 17:08:00 UTC  |  Edited by: marVLs
Mer88 wrote:
I believe bastion do increase dps alot, first of all bastion is a tanking module on the high slot, it is equavilant to at least 2 tanking modules, so in theory, you can only do 2 or 3 tank modules, the rest can be use for dps and it still manage to out tank a 4 slot tank on TQ. Secondly, the increase range bonus do increase dps. Again, you dont need to use tracking enchancer or targeting range script, instead you can use tracking speed or a target painter for more applied dps. Your apply damage do get a lot better bastion give you a free range bonus.


Exepct that's not true.

From how long standing still increase You DPS on AC, Blasters, Torps instead of burning into target? Range bonuses are stacking penalized so it's almost no help, You may say i can fit less TC's thanks to bastion range bonus etc. but it don't work because without bastion Your range is crap then.
Please also stop with that dreams that You can put more damage mods... so how i will do this on Golem? or 5th gyro, mag stab, heat sink?

No they wont do at least missions faster, they're slower in them, go check by Yourself.
Only paladin now is viable, and tbh it's even better for missions than nightmare so gj at least on that... And btw paladin don't need web bonus now, it's better with mjd + ab/mwd combination + pulse lasers (now better than tachs on paladin for missions).

If You ask me all of them need speed buff, drone bay buff, and vargur needs +1med slot with non stacking penalized bastion range bonuses, kronos need something... maybe +1med slot or 125drones BD, golem could be pure torp boat so better torps range

Well biiig rig calibration could be cool too
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5254 - 2013-10-10 17:27:22 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Lucian Thorundan wrote:
3. The bastion module seems to suffer from stacking penalties on the range (like other modules) - I have not done the math but I'd assume the resists do as well. This is OK however the buff to range isn't as great as I would have hoped for, my Vargur fit (admittedly AC's not artillery but still) went from 47km falloff w/o bastion to ~52km falloff with it (2 X TE's, 1 X TC w/ range script), the optimal bonus on AC's is wasted entirely so the buff was lacklustre, not missing but generally not a game changer.


I dont have SiSi installed so i cant test this myself but if the range bonus is stacking penalized then shouldnt we counter this by not using range modules on the ship?

Try fitting it out with more gank and less range and see if the increase in range bastion gives is better that way?

I think the point of the bastion module is to allow u to fit less tank and range mods becuase thats exactly what it gives you.


There really is nothing else to fit at some point if you are in a pve situation. On the Vargur you can have 4x gyros, 1x TE, 2x TC and 1x burst aerator rig/1x collision rig. You are starting to run into serious stacking penalties there. And that tank will hold for a very long time in bastion. 1x XL deadspace is more than enough, and with a couple of nos or a cap booster you really don't have to do anything serious to tank with the ship.
Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
#5255 - 2013-10-10 17:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Outz Xacto
Mer88 wrote:

I believe bastion do increase dps alot, first of all bastion is a tanking module on the high slot, it is equavilant to at least 2 tanking modules, so in theory, you can only do 2 or 3 tank modules, the rest can be use for dps and it still manage to out tank a 4 slot tank on TQ. Secondly, the increase range bonus do increase dps. Again, you dont need to use tracking enchancer or targeting range script, instead you can use tracking speed or a target painter for more applied dps. Your apply damage do get a lot better bastion give you a free range bonus.


The only time any additional DPS is gained is if a low slot were opened up, all other situations are just potential increases in applied dps, but the ship dps has not gone up. Mid slots are only going to help apply existing dps, often times the stacking penalty and redundancy (unecessary need). The range bonus is a slight increase to where you can apply dps, for some weapon systems, and even then the bonus is minor, additionally as has been pointed out numerous times, to alleviate stacking penalties means when you're not in bastion mode, you've impaired your range. Meaning much of what is being described as a bonus from bastion is actually a zero net gain.

In addition, being unable to move means you can not adjust transversal you are at the mercy of others, the times in which bastion appears to be beneficial can already be achieved without its use. Again, being able to track better, but have 0 control on transversal is not a net gain. Going to extreme ranges to counter this is not something unique to the module, as the bonus to ships fit for this already is minimal, the opening of another slot by bastion is redundant so it doesn't help the situation.

In short, if you could still move and got the range bonus from bastion, then yes you are completely right, you still can have the same transversal, and better tracking which means you can apply dps better than if you did not have the additional tracking, however, this is not how bastion works. There may be some scenario's where you're applying more dps, likely however, this had nothing to do with bastion, and had more to do with what the other ship was already going to do, regardless of the use of bastion.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5256 - 2013-10-10 17:56:26 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:



Dude you are the one EFTing. A continued tank without any improved dps is nearly irrelevant on most PVP scenarios.


It has more than enough firepower.

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5257 - 2013-10-10 18:18:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



Dude you are the one EFTing. A continued tank without any improved dps is nearly irrelevant on most PVP scenarios.


It has more than enough firepower.



haha you are wrong!
there is no such thing as enough firepower Blink
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5258 - 2013-10-10 18:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
gascanu wrote:


haha you are wrong!
there is no such thing as enough firepower Blink


Yes there is.

There is just no excuse to not have moreTwisted
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5259 - 2013-10-10 18:31:30 UTC
Outz Xacto wrote:
Mer88 wrote:

I believe bastion do increase dps alot, first of all bastion is a tanking module on the high slot, it is equavilant to at least 2 tanking modules, so in theory, you can only do 2 or 3 tank modules, the rest can be use for dps and it still manage to out tank a 4 slot tank on TQ. Secondly, the increase range bonus do increase dps. Again, you dont need to use tracking enchancer or targeting range script, instead you can use tracking speed or a target painter for more applied dps. Your apply damage do get a lot better bastion give you a free range bonus.


The only time any additional DPS is gained is if a low slot were opened up, all other situations are just potential increases in applied dps, but the ship dps has not gone up. Mid slots are only going to help apply existing dps, often times the stacking penalty and redundancy (unecessary need). The range bonus is a slight increase to where you can apply dps, for some weapon systems, and even then the bonus is minor, additionally as has been pointed out numerous times, to alleviate stacking penalties means when you're not in bastion mode, you've impaired your range. Meaning much of what is being described as a bonus from bastion is actually a zero net gain.

In addition, being unable to move means you can not adjust transversal you are at the mercy of others, the times in which bastion appears to be beneficial can already be achieved without its use. Again, being able to track better, but have 0 control on transversal is not a net gain. Going to extreme ranges to counter this is not something unique to the module, as the bonus to ships fit for this already is minimal, the opening of another slot by bastion is redundant so it doesn't help the situation.

In short, if you could still move and got the range bonus from bastion, then yes you are completely right, you still can have the same transversal, and better tracking which means you can apply dps better than if you did not have the additional tracking, however, this is not how bastion works. There may be some scenario's where you're applying more dps, likely however, this had nothing to do with bastion, and had more to do with what the other ship was already going to do, regardless of the use of bastion.



regarding stack penalty , one just need to adjust their modules to take full benefit of the bastion range bonus. like you wouldnt need 2-3 range modules on ship anymore you could use target painters or tracking script. Another method is to use dps rigs . before bastion, you will be gimping your applied damage or damage projection if you were to use a dps rig. Bation module opens up alot of option to marauder class which is amazing
stoicfaux
#5260 - 2013-10-10 18:43:14 UTC
Outz Xacto wrote:
Mer88 wrote:

"I'm highly suspect without you showing some concrete evidence that indicates missiles A. currently can't do this, and B. the bastion'ed velocity allows this to be achieved in all/most situations. I do recall something that indicated current achievable velocities doing this in a number of cases/ranges."

I think you can do this on TQ with 2x t2 missile speed if you have max missile speed skills to avoid the defenders. with Bastion module on you only need a T1 missile speed rig which give you 300 calibration left for 2t dps rig it should still give you a 25 + 15 speed increase. so in conclusion you can free up a rigg slot and still avoid defender missiles if you use the bastion module for cruise missiles. at least this is how i hope it will be


Of course I havn't been able to find where I read the discussion on defender avoidance (I know really helps my argument eh!?), but thought that at or around 11km/s that defenders started to fail, and that it was said to be more at further ranges (assuming due to acceleration).

With your proposed rigging setup, damage application becomes an issue I'd think, especially in comparison to the RNI. Going to also hit some diminishing returns, iirc with your rig setup too for missile velocity, as others have pointed out with what riggings to use for maximizing torp distance. For CM that rig setup gives up 40% missile ER reduction...

NPC Defenders acting screwy: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3411475#post3411475 (e.g. always missing at 70+km, hitting less often than expected, etc.) Still needs more formal testing at more ranges, which I haven't had the time/patience to do.

As for the Golem in level 4s, you can fit a two slot tank (Pithum C MSB + invul II) and use 4 TPs on each and every target, which tends to makes the choice between missile speed rigs or rigor rigs a bit moot. Use Bastion mode to pick up the slack in tanking when you need it. The MJD on my sisi Golem was just for looks.

A Golem with Pithum C MSB + Invul II + Bastion mode lasted 4m 7s in AE's bonus room with full room aggro (killed only the trigger to spawn the extra battleships.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.